Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Sammy wrote: I'd say we were on a hiding to nothing when and until each and every one of us can access and read original TCM texts. We need an opening up of this area of knowledge like PubMed online did for the WM journals. To say that making publicly available all TCM texts online would revolutionise medicine is an understatement. However, I doubt if such a project has ever crossed the mind of a single official in the Chinese government. It already exists! Its the Acupuncture Research Resource Centre and what's more Sammy, its UK based! http://www.acupuncture- research.org.uk/ The actual databse is held at Thames Valley University and is maintained by Mark Bovey. Email address is avialable from me directly off list. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > It already exists! Its the Acupuncture Research Resource Centre and what's more Sammy, its UK based! http://www.acupuncture- > research.org.uk/ Attilio: It was last updated 1 April, 2001. Do you know what's going on with it now? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Attilio, Sammy, et al, ARRC is not equivalent to PubMed, unfortunately. Its work is good, but very far from exhaustive in the sense that PubMed is. There's a list of databases that might be of interest at http://www.rosenthal.hs.columbia.edu/Databases.html#4 One of the concerns of many individuals in the West is that the quality of a great deal of research from the PRC is poor. A very well known scholar of Chinese medicine (who will remain anonymous here as I do not have premission to divulge the individual's name) reported privately that, while doing research in China, he was told by Chinese doctors that a great deal of research published in the PRC is fabricated. It is certainly the case that various biomedical researchers assess Chinese research collectively as not scientifically reliable. The problem with research is that, if it isn't conducted in a rigorous and honest manner, it can be very misleading. Isolated pieces of research don't have the same weight as systematic reviews, but what value can a systematic review have if some of the individual studies are made up? Many individuals I know who are interested in research consider that it is likely that research that is useful to us will need to be done by us in the West. ARRC is quite a good resource for finding out about Western research into acupuncture. The suitability of research to CM, along with the type of issues that have been discussed often in this group, for example in relation to Unschuld, are complex, and I don't think that any unique or permanent solution exists. If one subjects CM to scientific enquiry, one will end up with a biomedical modality, and this is not what CM is. There are important questions about the applicability of science to CM. A colleague of mine reported that in an influential debate in the Shanghai Journal of TCM a young physician recently suggested that the only future for CM was to assimilate itself into WM simply because the very idea of a scientific CM was ludicrous. Unschuld's response to this issue is to suggest, quite simply, that we should keep CM separate from biomedicine. Fortunately, with the ethos of post modernism within our culture at present, heterogeneity, pluralism and uncertainty are much more acceptible than in the past, and I suspect that if we wish CM medicine to survive, we'll have to embrace a post modernist outlook. Best wishes, Wainwright - Chinese Medicine Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:21 AM CM version of Pubmed Sammy wrote: I'd say we were on a hiding to nothing when and until each and every one of us can access and read original TCM texts. We need an opening up of this area of knowledge like PubMed online did for the WM journals. To say that making publicly available all TCM texts online would revolutionise medicine is an understatement. However, I doubt if such a project has ever crossed the mind of a single official in the Chinese government. It already exists! Its the Acupuncture Research Resource Centre and what's more Sammy, its UK based! http://www.acupuncture- research.org.uk/ The actual databse is held at Thames Valley University and is maintained by Mark Bovey. Email address is avialable from me directly off list. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 No i don't Jim. I'll send them an email and let the group know. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > It already exists! Its the Acupuncture Research Resource Centre > and what's more Sammy, its UK based! http://www.acupuncture- > > research.org.uk/ > > > > Attilio: > > It was last updated 1 April, 2001. Do you know what's going on with > it now? > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 It already exists! Its the Acupuncture Research Resource Centre and what's more Sammy, its UK based! http://www.acupuncture- research.org.uk/ But this is acupuncture only - no herbal medicine? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 It's only 'shit' when one doesn't know what they are doing!!!!! > That is why we still continue to forester feel-good discussions and people > can still state stuff like i have the cure for arthritis, i cure lateral > epicondylitis in one treat and more shit like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Hi Hugo It is ONLY a loaded word when the true meaning is covered over by the incorrect and purposeful inaccurate common biased usage. Especially the usage which is fostered by the allopathic community such as when we find even in state Department of Healthcare laws where it is illegal to say that one 'cures' any condition. One need not guess as to who is controlling that puppet. Just maybe...someday....someone...some group..... will take these suppressive conditions out from the world's 'sick care' paradigm and we just might wind up with a real 'health care' paradigm. The Latin root of the word 'cure' means 'to take care of' and that's exactly what you/we (some of us) are actually doing. Taking care of our patients. Hugo - YOU are not missing anything. You are right on target. Richard > I think you wroite the below, Alon, if not, please > correct me. I'm not quite sure what you are saying, > but on that note I'll throw in my pov, ok? > > --- Alon Marcus > > > >>>>Well i will not remain anonymous and can tell i > > saw this first hand. > > Well, go on then! Let's hear it, detailed, please. > > > to forester feel-good discussions and people can > > still state stuff like i have the cure for > > arthritis, i cure lateral epicondylitis in one treat > > and more shit like this > > 'Cure' is a loaded word... I was taught that in CM > there is no such thing as a cure - cures are > impossible. What is possible is to restore the > internal and external balance and this, in part, means > learning to live within the bounds of our particular > human body and its environment. > Next - what is it called when I can help a patient > 'totally' 'relieve' their arthritic symptoms in such a > way that recurrence does not occur? shrug... I don't > make guarantees, but I can see why that is a cure. > I'll admit it takes a dedicated patient and a correct > diagnosis. > The tennis elbow / lat epicondyle next... I have > 'cured' that condition in ONE treatment so many > times...again, there is no guarantee, at least > partially because no patient is going to guarantee > _me_ compliance, but it is quite reproducible. Usual > caveats like chronic tennis elbow injury or + > complications with cold-damp etc all cause the case to > be less tractable. > But I still feel like I am missing the point... ?? > > take care, > Hugo > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 One of the concerns of many individuals in the West is that the quality of a great deal of research from the PRC is poor. A very well known scholar of Chinese medicine (who will remain anonymous here as I do not have premission to divulge the individual's name) reported privately that, while doing research in China, he was told by Chinese doctors that a great deal of research published in the PRC is fabricated. It is certainly the case that various biomedical researchers assess Chinese research collectively as not scientifically reliable. >>>>Well i will not remain anonymous and can tell i saw this first hand. And if we had a penny worth of honesty in the west we would talk about this loudly. We still do not have any discussion on trying to repeat PRC studies both in a personal clinical sense and from institutions. That is why we still continue to forester feel-good discussions and people can still state stuff like i have the cure for arthritis, i cure lateral epicondylitis in one treat and more shit like this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 I think you wroite the below, Alon, if not, please correct me. I'm not quite sure what you are saying, but on that note I'll throw in my pov, ok? --- Alon Marcus > >>>>Well i will not remain anonymous and can tell i > saw this first hand. Well, go on then! Let's hear it, detailed, please. > to forester feel-good discussions and people can > still state stuff like i have the cure for > arthritis, i cure lateral epicondylitis in one treat > and more shit like this 'Cure' is a loaded word... I was taught that in CM there is no such thing as a cure - cures are impossible. What is possible is to restore the internal and external balance and this, in part, means learning to live within the bounds of our particular human body and its environment. Next - what is it called when I can help a patient 'totally' 'relieve' their arthritic symptoms in such a way that recurrence does not occur? shrug... I don't make guarantees, but I can see why that is a cure. I'll admit it takes a dedicated patient and a correct diagnosis. The tennis elbow / lat epicondyle next... I have 'cured' that condition in ONE treatment so many times...again, there is no guarantee, at least partially because no patient is going to guarantee _me_ compliance, but it is quite reproducible. Usual caveats like chronic tennis elbow injury or + complications with cold-damp etc all cause the case to be less tractable. But I still feel like I am missing the point... ?? take care, Hugo ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: That is why we still continue to forester feel-good discussions and people can still state stuff like i have the cure for arthritis, i cure lateral epicondylitis in one treat and more shit like this No swearing please! (unless your quoting from Chaucer) Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 This originates in the oral tradition when the doctor was authority & his word respected. It has been abused for sure, but not just by TCM. There is a 'research industry' in the west geared to maintaining and supporting an infrastructure spanning health authorities - universities - pharmaceutical companies - at the end of the line there are careers and pensions involved. From my own tiny little corner of experience in the world of prostate cancer none of these guys & gals want a " cure " .. Jeeze ! They'd all be out of a friggin job and looking for work as dustmen or toilet cleaners. This has been so finely worked out believe me, it is no lie, no paranoid delusion. The cure for prostate cancer is to have a high level of testosterone (Jing essence I guess eh ?). That essence has been shown to be missing in men diagnosed with PC. Fifty years ago it was shown that testosterone supplements would revive terminal metastatic cases of PC. There are pre-PubMed photocopies on my EPCEL Files area see Pearson and Prout. So what do these clever researchers do ? They " prove " that testosterone " causes " prostate cancer and make it virtually impossible for anyone with prostate cancer to be prescribed testosterone patches. Instead they are castrated to remove the stimulation of testosterone altogether. Neat eh ;-) It had me fooled for the first 5 years on castration therapy. I am just glad I got off it before the damage was permanent. I can still 'do it' but lots of guys are completely impotent due to testicular atrophy. What is more they are prone to an even more malignant form of prostate cancer once the runaway prostate cells have learnt to feed on other types of growth factor. Sorry I meant to keep quiet until others had their say. Sammy. Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] 02 October 2003 18:19 Chinese Medicine Re: CM version of Pubmed One of the concerns of many individuals in the West is that the quality of a great deal of research from the PRC is poor. A very well known scholar of Chinese medicine (who will remain anonymous here as I do not have premission to divulge the individual's name) reported privately that, while doing research in China, he was told by Chinese doctors that a great deal of research published in the PRC is fabricated. It is certainly the case that various biomedical researchers assess Chinese research collectively as not scientifically reliable. >>>>Well i will not remain anonymous and can tell i saw this first hand. And if we had a penny worth of honesty in the west we would talk about this loudly. We still do not have any discussion on trying to repeat PRC studies both in a personal clinical sense and from institutions. That is why we still continue to forester feel-good discussions and people can still state stuff like i have the cure for arthritis, i cure lateral epicondylitis in one treat and more shit like this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 I've spoken to Mark Bovey at ARRC and he stated the database was last updated a month ago. Attilio " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > It already exists! Its the Acupuncture Research Resource Centre > and what's more Sammy, its UK based! http://www.acupuncture- > > research.org.uk/ > > > > Attilio: > > It was last updated 1 April, 2001. Do you know what's going on with > it now? > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > I've spoken to Mark Bovey at ARRC and he stated the database was > last updated a month ago. > Attilio: Then they didn't update the update notice on each page. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Hi All, I have rechecked http://www.acupuncture-research.org.uk/ just now. The Homepage clearly states that the last update was April 1, 2001. IMO, there is little of value in those pages. Also, the ARRCBASE [a specialised resource that holds over 10,000 references on acupuncture and related practices. It is the only resource of its kind in the UK and requests for information have come from Europe, USA and Australia] does NOT appear to be available online. I also failed to find access to it via Google. Google gave URLs for 2 ARRC Monographs [on gyn & migraine], but I could not find the ARRCBASE Search Engine. Anyone know its URL if it is accessible? Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 As far as i know Phil, the database can only be accessed via Mark at Thames Valley University rather than online. Attilio " " <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, > > I have rechecked http://www.acupuncture-research.org.uk/ just now. The > Homepage clearly states that the last update was April 1, 2001. > > IMO, there is little of value in those pages. > > Also, the ARRCBASE [a specialised resource that holds over 10,000 > references on acupuncture and related practices. It is the only resource of its > kind in the UK and requests for information have come from Europe, USA and > Australia] does NOT appear to be available online. I also failed to find access to > it via Google. > Google gave URLs for 2 ARRC Monographs [on gyn & migraine], but I could not > find the ARRCBASE Search Engine. > Anyone know its URL if it is accessible? > > > > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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