what is qi

[Guest guest]

i have given my comments re: qi, matter & energy &

blood.

 

" What flows through the channels or meridians in the

body ?

Is qi an absence of matter? as in energy?

Can qi move with the blood??

Vanessa

qi as I understand it is an unknown entity,

indescribable, & non quantifiable todate. So it must

be going through the meridians. This is so as we treat

through meridians & that does cause changes to the

body. So a deduction that qi has been moved.

The other possibility is that qi travels with the

blood & jhas some relationship with blod.

We consider blood to have iron. Iron may be the

carrier of qi. Although we cannot quantify it it may

have some relationship to iron content & quality of

iron & oxygen absorbing capacity.

This I think is a possibility as we do talk about qi

preceding blood & qi & blood balance,etc. we talk

about a distinct relationship between the two. So

maybe the arteries & veins do carry blood & qi. We

know thw blood part but cannot recognise the qi

component – or maybe we recognise it as something

else.

The points on the meridians may be directly related to

qi & blood balance. How it works we do not know as

yet. Maybe we have an electrical system that is so

advanced that they are directly responsible for

influencing the body through the acupuncture points.

 

 

 

 

Qi is considered energy. But what is absence of

matter. I thought there has to be matter for any

energy to flow. If there is no matter it will be

vacuum. This I do not think is possible in the human

body. So I will discount that.

Maybe others have some views on this angle.

 

anand

 

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> The points on the meridians may be directly related to qi & blood balance.

How it works we do not know as yet. Maybe we have an electrical system that

is so advanced that they are directly responsible for influencing the body

through the acupuncture points

 

There is a file in the FILES area showing how meridians and chakras are

related through movement of electrical energy. I think Qi must be the

combined electrical and magnetic component of bioelectric activity.

 

Have you ever tried putting a magnet over an acupoint ?

 

Sammy.

anand bapat [acubapat]

24 September 2003 09:05

Chinese Medicine

what is qi

 

 

i have given my comments re: qi, matter & energy &

blood.

 

" What flows through the channels or meridians in the

body ?

Is qi an absence of matter? as in energy?

Can qi move with the blood??

Vanessa

qi as I understand it is an unknown entity,

indescribable, & non quantifiable todate. So it must

be going through the meridians. This is so as we treat

through meridians & that does cause changes to the

body. So a deduction that qi has been moved.

The other possibility is that qi travels with the

blood & jhas some relationship with blod.

We consider blood to have iron. Iron may be the

carrier of qi. Although we cannot quantify it it may

have some relationship to iron content & quality of

iron & oxygen absorbing capacity.

This I think is a possibility as we do talk about qi

preceding blood & qi & blood balance,etc. we talk

about a distinct relationship between the two. So

maybe the arteries & veins do carry blood & qi. We

know thw blood part but cannot recognise the qi

component – or maybe we recognise it as something

else.

The points on the meridians may be directly related to

qi & blood balance. How it works we do not know as

yet. Maybe we have an electrical system that is so

advanced that they are directly responsible for

influencing the body through the acupuncture points.

 

 

 

 

Qi is considered energy. But what is absence of

matter. I thought there has to be matter for any

energy to flow. If there is no matter it will be

vacuum. This I do not think is possible in the human

body. So I will discount that.

Maybe others have some views on this angle.

 

anand

 

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

 

[Guest guest]

other possibility is that qi travels with the

blood & jhas some relationship with blod.

>>>Since qi like many other OM terms applies to different stuff at different

times, should we even think of Qi and a thing or one term? I prefer to think of

Qi or any other term as just a word that names different aspects of observation

in different situation. If you want to talk about qi carried by blood you need

to define which qi, (or better yet call it stuff).

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sammy,

I think Qi must be the

> combined electrical and magnetic component of bioelectric activity.

 

I have a little pet peeve about

the equation of qi and energy.

I prepared a whole lecture, something

that I seldom do, principally to contradict

this notion.

 

Truth be told, I don't care what anyone

thinks qi is or isn't. But I'm just

curious to know why you think that

qi must be the combined eletrical

and magnetic component of bioelectric

activity.

 

Also, it dawns on me that I don't

really get what you mean or what

the electrical (or magnetic) component

of bioelectric activity means.

 

Whatever energy is might accurately

be described as a form of qi, but I

more or less insist that qi is not

a form of energy, an aspect of energy,

or in any way limited to or defined by

whatever it is that English speakers

mean or understand when they say " energy. "

 

Energy is: (from dictionary.com)

 

en·er·gy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nr-j)

n. pl. en·er·gies

The capacity for work or vigorous activity; vigor; power. See

Synonyms at strength.

 

Exertion of vigor or power: a project requiring a great deal of time

and energy.

Vitality and intensity of expression: a speech delivered with energy

and emotion.

 

Usable heat or power: Each year Americans consume a high percentage

of the world's energy.

A source of usable power, such as petroleum or coal.

Physics. The capacity of a physical system to do work.

 

 

----

----------

[French énergie, from Late Latin energa, from Greek energeia, from

energos, active : en-, in, at; see en-2 + ergon, work; see werg- in

Indo-European Roots.]

 

And that's not what qi is.

At least that's not what the

word qi has meant for a couple

thousand years or more.

 

Translation is often thought of

as a desperately difficult chore

in which something is always lost.

But more and more I find that translation

provides us with opportunities for

important things, such as insight

into meaning, can be gained.

 

But we've got to be fairly diligent,

clear, and precise in order to gain

such things.

 

So I always get a little worried whenever

I see someone saying that qi must

be some sort of energy, some aspect

of energy, or just plain energy.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> >>>Since qi like many other OM terms applies to different stuff at

different times, should we even think of Qi and a thing or one term?

I prefer to think of Qi or any other term as just a word that names

different aspects of observation in different situation. If you want

to talk about qi carried by blood you need to define which qi, (or

better yet call it stuff).

> Alon

 

Good point.

This is one of the considerations

that drove me to want to write a

whole book about what qi is and

means.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi All & Hi Anand

 

Anand wrote:

> Qi ... is ... indescribable & nonquantifiable to date. So it must

> be going through the Channels.

 

IMO, we must try to describe the indescribable! Otherwise we can

find no common ground for meaningful discussion!

 

IMO, Qi is everywhere - in Channels, Xue, Vessels, cells, rocks,

music, painting, art, sun, moon, planets, vacuum and God.

 

> This is [why] we treat through Channels & that causes changes

to the body. So a deduction that Qi has been moved.

 

IMO, it is the nature of Qi to move, unless it is blocked. In

inanimate objects like rocks or mountains, Qi is like " potential

energy " ; it lies dormant unless other Qi causes movement; then

the dormant Qi becomes kinetic Qi; the rocks fall and the

mountains move.

 

In art, music, literature or paintings, the Qi stays dormant until an

observer's Qi interacts with it. The outcome - whether the observer

is moved or unmoved - depends on the observer; some are

enthralled, others appalled, by some forms of art. The dormant Qi

in the works of Picasso, Beethoven, or Steinbeck does not move

not everyone in the same way.

 

> The other possibility is that Qi travels with Xue & has a

> relationship with it.

 

Do cassical texts not say that Qi Moves Xue and Xue is the Mother

of Qi?

 

> Xue has iron. Iron may be the carrier of Qi. Although we cannot

> quantify it it may have some relationship to iron content & quality

> of iron & oxygen absorbing capacity. This I think is a possibility

> as we do talk about Qi preceding Xue & Qi-Xue balance, etc. We talk

> about a distinct relationship between the two. So maybe the

> arteries & veins do carry Xue & Qi. We know the Xue part but cannot

> recognise the Qi component – or maybe we recognise it as something

> else.

 

The oxygen-carrying capacity of Xue depends on haemoglobin (for

which the iron is essential). Iron on its own, cannot carry oxygen

as effectively as Hb!. IMO, haemoglobin & myoglobin carry the AIR

[Metal] component of Qi.

 

But Xue also has WATER (H2O). IMO, WATER is the MOST

important element for life! It is the combination of TWO Gases

(airs, Metals) - H and O. Thus, WATER contains METAL; in

contrast to the usual understanding of the Sheng Cycle, WATER

can be said to me the mother of Metal! [gases, air, oxygen]

 

IMO, the WATER, combined with the METAL [Hb, iron] is the main

Qi Carrier in Xue.

 

> The Channel Pts may be directly related to Qi-Xue balance. How

> it works we do not know yet. Maybe we have an electrical system so

> advanced that influences the body directly through the AP Pts.

 

Mammals have THREE known signal-conduction systems:

(1) the CNS & peripheral NS, which belong mainly to to WATER

[KI, Marrow, Brain/nerves];

(2) the HTS (hormonal/humoral/tropin system), including histamine,

cytokines, etc. FIRE (HT) and EARTH (SP) Govern the Vessels &

Xue, and probably control the HTS.

(3) The PNS (Primitive Nervous System), as described by Robert

Becker et al. Plants and pre-differentiated mammalian embryos

have a primitive cell-to-cell communication system that does not

require a CNS/peripheral NS as we know it. Both plants and

embryos are sprouting (belong to WOOD); they have rapid growth

and movement - WOOD functions. Perhaps WOOD controls the

PNS.

 

IMO, Qi embraces and exhibits the Fxs of all Five Phases, and it

moves by and through all Five, especially in the Xue via WATER

and METAL.

 

> Qi is considered energy. But what is absence of matter? I thought

> there must be matter for any energy to flow. If there is no matter

> it will be vacuum. This I do not think is possible in the human

> body. So I will discount that. Maybe others have some views on this

> angle. anand

 

Does Cosmic Energy not reach us through the great vacuum of

space?

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken,

 

> I have a little pet peeve about the equation of qi and energy. I

> prepared a whole lecture, something that I seldom do, principally

> to contradict this notion.

 

Ken, I may have missed it, but where can I see your lecture on Qi?.

 

If the lecture is not easily available [i.e. not in digital fore for

transmission), could you give 4-8 bullet-points as to your

perception of Qi and its nature?

 

1. Qi is ...

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I gave it at PCOM in 2002 and I

gave it to David Eisenberg's group

at Harvard in 2001 and I also

gave it at Rothenburg in 2001. I have a

Powerpoint presentation somewhere,

but I don't know if it can stand

alone, as it's just some illustrations

and notes for a talk or, preferrably,

a conversation on the subject.

 

I'd be delighted to give it somewhere,

anywhere for that matter.

 

I plan to be in Europe next year beginning

around April. Maybe we can arrange to

get together somewhere in the UK.

 

I'd love to come to Dublin.

 

Ken

 

>

> Ken, I may have missed it, but where can I see your lecture on Qi?.

>

> If the lecture is not easily available [i.e. not in digital fore

for

> transmission), could you give 4-8 bullet-points as to your

> perception of Qi and its nature?

>

> 1. Qi is ...

> 2.

> 3.

> 4.

> 5.

> 6.

> 7.

> 8.

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Email: <@e...>

>

> WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4,

Ireland

> Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

>

> HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

> Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

> WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

[Guest guest]

Dublin is in my neigbourhood!

Actually it is cheaper for me to fly there that to fly to my own capitol.

 

So lets begin the party in Dublin!!!! What do you say Phil?

 

Holger

 

 

I plan to be in Europe next year beginning

around April. Maybe we can arrange to

get together somewhere in the UK.

 

I'd love to come to Dublin.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , ken wrote:

> I have a little pet peeve about

> the equation of qi and energy.

> I prepared a whole lecture, something

> that I seldom do, principally to contradict

> this notion. >>>

 

 

Ken:

 

If " qi " bears upward, downward, inward and outward, carrying blood

and fluids with it isn't that an example of the capacity for work

and, therefore, at least in part, can be defined as energy?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

Clearly there are various aspects of normal

physiology as well as pathological conditions

that can be described to various degrees of

clarity and usefulness using the words " energy "

and " qi " .

 

I think I've already noted that energy can certainly

be understood as a kind of or aspect of qi.

 

I'm not saying that there is no relationship

between the two words and the concepts

related to them.

 

What I am saying is that qi is not energy.

 

Qi does indeed do the things that you mention...

 

....among other things.

 

And even though we may be able to speak

about any and all of these things with the

word energy, that does not suggest to me

that what Chinese 2,000 years or more ago

had in mind when they wrote or said the

word " qi " is what you or I or other contemporary

English speakers think of and mean when we

write and say the word " energy. "

 

There are other problems as well with the

commonly encountered equivalence of

qi and energy, having to do with the

imprecision of the term " energy " in

scientific vernacular.

 

Ask a physicist what energy is and

see what happens.

 

In seeking ideal equivalents I always

wonder what can be gained from the

association of words in different languages

that can or should be taken to mean " the

same thing. "

 

So what do we gain by equating qi and

energy?

 

Why work to sustain this equivalence

when I believe it can and has been

adequately demonstrated that no

such equivalence actually exists?

 

Just take a look at the evidence contained

in A Brief History of Qi. In no way do I

consider it to be an exhaustive treatment

of the subject of what qi means and has

meant throughout the past few thousand

years. But I believe that the material in

that book more or less demonstrates

that qi is not energy and that to assert

that it is forwards a long standing

misunderstanding.

 

Ken

>

>

> Ken:

>

> If " qi " bears upward, downward, inward and outward, carrying blood

> and fluids with it isn't that an example of the capacity for work

> and, therefore, at least in part, can be defined as energy?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz