Guest guest Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 In a recent post Richard (I think) stated that using gua sha with fibromyalgia aggravated the pain without positive outcome. I ahve been puzzling about this. Why is muscle pain (defined by WM as fibromyalgia) different from the stagnation of cold, qi and blood which responds so well to gua sha? does the pain have a different source? why does acupuncture help fibromyalgia pain and not gua sha? Any ideas would be welcomed Thanks Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Yes, Sue - I posted that clinical experience. TRUE fibromyalgia is a systemic problem wherein the muscles are malnourished....dry....stringy....taut....impinging nerves creating pain. That's why the 18 locations are a test or 11 out of the 18 clearly showing a systemic problem in the musculature. Fibromyalgia is totally different that myofascial/osteofascial pain syndromes which are localized stagnation(s). I experienced early on, with the use of acupuncture needles,...that a healthy muscle is very soft and pliable once the acu needle is inserted....like going in and out of cotton or like butter....... BUT with firbomyalgia....it feels more like going in and out of leather. I listen to WM names for symptoms and then put them aside becuase they are usually incorrect or inaccurate. Such as calling (PVD) peripheral vasular disease describing a simply corrected nerve & vascular stagnation (compression) in one leg casuing numbness and tingling in that isolated foot.. Or incorrectly calling bone loss in only one hip as osteoporosis or further when it is called avascular necrosis coupled and osteoporosis for one hip ........when in fact it is often all due to fascial stagnation. Yes the pain has a different source. Myofascial pain is localized from qi, blood, and other fluid (intersitial) - stagnations. Gua Sha and Ba Guan can break up and lift these stagnations which would be are an excess and not directly connected to the living tissue....whereas fibromyalgia is a deficiency of the tissue(s) and directly connected to the lack thereof within that living tissue. With fibromyalgia......the tissues NEED very gentle stretching with much nutrition and not Gua Sha. In a key sense.....those dry-stringly muscles do NOT need any harsh methods to break up anything. I learned the hard way by experience. Richard > In a recent post Richard (I think) stated that using gua sha with > fibromyalgia aggravated the pain without positive outcome. I ahve > been puzzling about this. Why is muscle pain (defined by WM as > fibromyalgia) different from the stagnation of cold, qi and blood > which responds so well to gua sha? does the pain have a different > source? why does acupuncture help fibromyalgia pain and not gua sha? > Any ideas would be welcomed > Thanks > Sue > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 avascular necrosis coupled and osteoporosis for one hip ........when in fact it is often all due to fascial stagnation >>>>You want to tell me that you have seen somebody with avascualr necrosis that in fact had only fasical stagnation? If yes how did they make the diagnosis? There is no way anyone should confuse these syndromes even once Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 With respect to the use of Gua Sha for FM: my experience is that Gua Sha can be very effective for treating musculoskeletal pain due to Stagnant Blood, but that this treatment protocol is inappropriate for a condition that is characterized by painful sensitivity to pressure on most areas of the body. Treatment protocols for FM will generally involve differential diagnosis according to OM (see below). Alon Marcus states in " Musculoskeletal Disorders " that Fibromyalgia (FM) syndrome must be distinguished from Myofacial Pain Syndrome (MPS). “(FM) may be more of a systemic medical disorder (possibly a component of chronic fatigue syndrome) and the other a musculoskeletal (orthopedic) condition. " (148) This would suggest that FM is primarily an OM internal condition, and Marcus goes on to suggest four OM clinical presentations: 1. Retention of pathogenic factors 2. Latent pathogenic factors 3. Pathogenic factors between the Interior and Exterior (Shao Yang) 4. Organic and internal disorders There is, of course, much more in-depth discussion in Dr. Marcus' chapter on FM in " Musculoskeletal Disorders. " What I found especially interesting was his statement that FM " often begins following an infectious, or other medical disease which can lead to retained pathogenic factors. The main pathogenic factor seen clinically is Dampness. The more the myalgia, the more pathogenic Dampness or Phlegm.” (148) Dampness and Phlegm can result from: Improper treatment (or secondary to antibiotic therapy) Fever and Heat damaging the Fluids which congeal, thicken, and do not flow (These common in a clinical presentation that can result in both Dampness and Yin Deficiency – [see below]) Pathogenic factors disturbing the Spleen’s T/T function Spleen Deficiency Pathogenic factors disturbing the Lung’s descending function Kidney Yang, Essence, and True Qi Deficiency Mark Seem in " Acupuncture Physical Medicine, " makes the point that patients suffering from FM have pain throughout their bodies on the adipose tissue level, which is often inflamed. (106) He further states that such patients " do poorly with deep tissue type of work. " (106) FM is described as a disorder that reflects a pattern of fatigue and visceral agitation. (101). Signs and Symptoms (according to Seem) for FM include pain along the channels, arthritis, and myalgia, red, irritated eyes, insomnia, and weakness in Yin functions. He treats FM with a Du Mai/Yang Qiao Mai protocol to cover all the areas of the body and to release the exterior to calm down the irritation – but without further inflaming it with too strong a technique. Needle depth is superficial with no stimulation; the needles are left in for only 15 minutes at a time. Points would include SI 3/BL 62 for the extraordinary meridians, plus points along the Yang Qiao Mai, plus sensitive Du Mai points and/or Hua To Jia Ji points. Hence treatment is intended to relieve Wei level pain through the use of a Jing level treatment protocol (as opposed to relieviing Wei level pain through a Wei level treatment protocol). It is interesting to note, in this context, that I asked for advice in another forum about a possible connection between antibiotic therapy and acute heel and sole pain, with s/s similar to plantar fascitis. The patient is a 64 year old man, healthy and robust, with a tendency towards Yang Ming repletion (with s/s of flushed face, hemorrhoids, high blood pressure, red, dry eyes, and headaches). His condition appeared almost immediately after taking antibiotics for a urinary infection, and included severe pain around both heels and in the soles of both feet (especially down the bladder meridian), which made it almost impossible to walk, swollen ankles with pitting edema, and redness and swelling around the area of KD 6. While the patient's condition is not FM according to the accepted definitions of the disease, I found it interesting that an acute, painful condition, with signs of Damp Heat toxicity, occurred almost immediately after treating an infection with antibiotics on the same channel, and interiorly-linked channel, of the Fu Organ being treated. Perhaps there are parallels to FM, which may in certain instances represent a systemic expression of the same connection between antibiotic therapy and musculoskeletal pain? > " suecochrane36 " <suecochrane >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine > Muscle pain and gua sha >Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:51:34 -0000 > >In a recent post Richard (I think) stated that using gua sha with >fibromyalgia aggravated the pain without positive outcome. I ahve >been puzzling about this. Why is muscle pain (defined by WM as >fibromyalgia) different from the stagnation of cold, qi and blood >which responds so well to gua sha? does the pain have a different >source? why does acupuncture help fibromyalgia pain and not gua sha? >Any ideas would be welcomed >Thanks >Sue > _______________ Get McAfee virus scanning and cleaning of incoming attachments. Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 It is interesting to note, in this context, that I asked for advice in another forum about a possible connection between antibiotic therapy and acute heel and sole pain, with s/s similar to plantar fascitis. The patient is a 64 year old man, healthy and robust, with a tendency towards Yang Ming repletion (with s/s of flushed face, hemorrhoids, high blood pressure, red, dry eyes, and headaches). >>>>>>Some antibiotics are associated with Achilles tendonitis and ruptures, i have never heard of plantar fascia irritation. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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