Yin/Yang Additional Questions

[Guest guest]

Usually when the topic of yin/yang theory

comes up people tend to respond in one

or another of just a few ways. Either they

think they know what it means and feel

insulted or attacked that anyone would

question their grasp of such a basic idea.

 

Or they demur from disucssion offering

the vastness, depth, or sheer incomprehensibility

of the subject as an explanation of why

they really have nothing to say.

 

I find that relatively few people actually have a

good grip on yin/yang theory. And despite

the fact that making such a statement more

or less implies that I feel my own grasp of

the topic is adequate to permit the making

of such judgments, I would include myself

in this group of people who do not have a

very good grip on yin/yang theory.

 

I have been studying it for so well over thirty

years now that it's getting a little scary.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I think that an

entire book should be dedicated to an exegesis

of this deceptively simple notion that would delineate

what the Chinese have had to say on the subject

and lay a foundation for further discussion of

the idea. And as I also said earlier, I would be

delighted to see someone take up this task

and do it properly.

 

Maybe someone can suggest prior publications

that have already advanced on such a target.

One of the best treatments of the subject in

English that I know is the piece in Science and

Civilization in China. I think it's Vol. II.

 

I believe that like so many " ideas " that come

from ancient China, yin/yang theory is meant

to be contemplated as well as applied and

that in the interactive dynamics of thinking

and doing a kind of gong fu develops that

serves to condition and cultivate the mind/body.

 

This is, in other words, a restatement of

the notion that Chinese thinking contains this

tendency to be process oriented.

 

But the key thing is that we have to think about

it and use it in our related study and work in

the clinic as well.

 

So the question has to arise:

 

How do we use yin/yang theory in the clinic?

 

And then that leads to a cascade of additional

questions, which I'm hoping you guys will

raise and talk about with me.

 

I'm wrestling with how to write about all

of this and will greatly appreciate input from

anyone who can offer insight into what you

actually do in the course of applying yin/yang

theory to a patient who walks through your door.

 

When you look at a patient what do you

see that tells you how his or her yin or yang

is doing?

 

And what do you do about that?

 

For the purpose of this particular thread of

discussion, I would like to limit the use of

theoretical references to yin and yang. Let's

just talk about yin and yang and try to find out

what we really do know and what we can

freely talk about.

 

How many satisfying discussions of yin/yang

theory have you had in the last year?

 

And whenever I talk about the subject I always

raise the question of what number most

accurately reflects the value structure of

yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

equal to some number, what is that number?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken,

That's a good email, in my opinion. I think your request for people to talk

about yin-yang as relates to their clinical practice is good. Unfortunately, I

don't have the time to go into this at the moment(!)

 

I'd like to briefly consider your comment:

 

I believe that like so many " ideas " that come

from ancient China, yin/yang theory is meant

to be contemplated as well as applied and

that in the interactive dynamics of thinking

and doing a kind of gong fu develops that

serves to condition and cultivate the mind/body.

 

This is, in other words, a restatement of

the notion that Chinese thinking contains this

tendency to be process oriented.

 

I agree with you, and consider that this is a very important point. Because a

kind of gong fu develops, there's not going to be any end point in one's

understanding of yin-yang, and if one wishes to discuss yin-yang, it's necessary

to make explicit that no amount of specification, abstract or concrete, will do

more than allude to what one might call the more implicate aspects of what is

referred to by yin-yang. I think one might call the Chinese approach with

respect to Yin-Yang meditative, to use a term used by various 20th Century

Western philosphers.

 

This reminds me of a story from my training with Thong Nguyen, a third

generation Vietnamese CM practitioner, who at that time had about 30 years

experience of CM. I asked him about the spirits associated with the Zang, and he

refused to discuss this. He said that his father and another practitioner, as

old men, used to discuss the spirits, but that such understanding took many,

many years of experience in CM. You had to be patient, and get the experience,

and then you too would understand, eventually...

 

Best wishes,

Wainwright

 

 

 

-

kenrose2008

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:27 PM

Yin/Yang Additional Questions

 

 

Usually when the topic of yin/yang theory

comes up people tend to respond in one

or another of just a few ways. Either they

think they know what it means and feel

insulted or attacked that anyone would

question their grasp of such a basic idea.

 

Or they demur from disucssion offering

the vastness, depth, or sheer incomprehensibility

of the subject as an explanation of why

they really have nothing to say.

 

I find that relatively few people actually have a

good grip on yin/yang theory. And despite

the fact that making such a statement more

or less implies that I feel my own grasp of

the topic is adequate to permit the making

of such judgments, I would include myself

in this group of people who do not have a

very good grip on yin/yang theory.

 

I have been studying it for so well over thirty

years now that it's getting a little scary.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I think that an

entire book should be dedicated to an exegesis

of this deceptively simple notion that would delineate

what the Chinese have had to say on the subject

and lay a foundation for further discussion of

the idea. And as I also said earlier, I would be

delighted to see someone take up this task

and do it properly.

 

Maybe someone can suggest prior publications

that have already advanced on such a target.

One of the best treatments of the subject in

English that I know is the piece in Science and

Civilization in China. I think it's Vol. II.

 

I believe that like so many " ideas " that come

from ancient China, yin/yang theory is meant

to be contemplated as well as applied and

that in the interactive dynamics of thinking

and doing a kind of gong fu develops that

serves to condition and cultivate the mind/body.

 

This is, in other words, a restatement of

the notion that Chinese thinking contains this

tendency to be process oriented.

 

But the key thing is that we have to think about

it and use it in our related study and work in

the clinic as well.

 

So the question has to arise:

 

How do we use yin/yang theory in the clinic?

 

And then that leads to a cascade of additional

questions, which I'm hoping you guys will

raise and talk about with me.

 

I'm wrestling with how to write about all

of this and will greatly appreciate input from

anyone who can offer insight into what you

actually do in the course of applying yin/yang

theory to a patient who walks through your door.

 

When you look at a patient what do you

see that tells you how his or her yin or yang

is doing?

 

And what do you do about that?

 

For the purpose of this particular thread of

discussion, I would like to limit the use of

theoretical references to yin and yang. Let's

just talk about yin and yang and try to find out

what we really do know and what we can

freely talk about.

 

How many satisfying discussions of yin/yang

theory have you had in the last year?

 

And whenever I talk about the subject I always

raise the question of what number most

accurately reflects the value structure of

yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

equal to some number, what is that number?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ok Ken,

I'll hazard a guess.

The number is... 1.

 

That is one, as in the Tao gave birth to the one source..

 

and in the mathematical " 1 " which while being a unity, contains an

infinite number of decimal points between nothing and one.

 

Godfrey

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> And whenever I talk about the subject I always

> raise the question of what number most

> accurately reflects the value structure of

> yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

> equal to some number, what is that number?

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Attilio, Ken, All,

 

May I?

 

I came to Chinese medicine through martial arts. In particular TaiJi

Quan, long form, Yang style.

 

I recall my teacher, Dr. Wu, Shi Cun in Chicago, often placing much

emphasis to Wu Ji. He often stated that without an appreciation of Wu

Ji, yin/yang had no meaning. He quoted the classics often and said

that Wu Ji is the mother of Taiji and that Taiji was a pure

expression of the interplay of yin/yang.

 

He also stated that this could only be understood with time and

constant practice. That verbal explanations would always come short

and often miss the mark. He was also my first CM teacher and

encouraged us to always apply yin/yang theory to our formulations of

herbal prescriptions, tui na treatments and taiji practice.

 

Dr. Wu would often say: " If it's too hot, cool it. If it's to hard,

soften it. If it's too cold, warm it " . He said that us, Westerners,

were trying to make too much of this yin/yang thing. He said that the

theory evolved from very basic observations of daily phenomena.

 

To him, what's more important in clinical practice is to teach

patients to return to the mother of taiji, Wu Ji. Without Wuji,

patients would never be able to discern the interplay between yin and

yang.

 

When asked to define Wuji, he said that Wuji could not be defined; it

could only be experienced. He would often teach zhanzhuang practice

both sitting and standing to his patients. This practice, he said,

would eventually settle the chaos within the patient's mind and

restore an inner awareness of wuji.

 

In my practice, I try to follow his example and teachings best I can.

If the patient is too hot, cool him/her...if it's too cold...

 

As far as a yin/yang number, I say 8; four of this and four of that.

 

Fernando

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> I'm wrestling with how to write about all

> of this and will greatly appreciate input from

> anyone who can offer insight into what you

> actually do in the course of applying yin/yang

> theory to a patient who walks through your door.

>

> When you look at a patient what do you

> see that tells you how his or her yin or yang

> is doing?

>

> And what do you do about that?

>

> For the purpose of this particular thread of

> discussion, I would like to limit the use of

> theoretical references to yin and yang. Let's

> just talk about yin and yang and try to find out

> what we really do know and what we can

> freely talk about.

>

> How many satisfying discussions of yin/yang

> theory have you had in the last year?

>

> And whenever I talk about the subject I always

> raise the question of what number most

> accurately reflects the value structure of

> yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

> equal to some number, what is that number?

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

I really really appreciate your invitation Ken.

You have created a beautiful opening for thinking, discussing and

reflectingon this topic

 

(By the way... I guess we can discuss this in english, even if it was not

invented when the classics were written)

 

The opening (questions, inquiry) as such Ken, is for me more Yang in

relation to the answers that are more a structuring process. Of course the

opening can give space for the structures to develop, so the first thing

that I think of when I see your letter is: Are you asking the " right "

questions? I mean for your quest. Are they an opening for what you want from

the discussion? I guess they are. To me you ask great questions that invites

me to reflect (contemplate) over the principles, as well as formulate how

(if) I use the principles in the clinic.

 

Another question that arises is; am I really using Yin Yang as principle in

the clinic work?

 

Looking at my self from outside, when I meet a person in the clinic, Yin

Yang is not the first thing I reflect upon, at leat not conciously, and at

the moment I wonder if I use it at all?.

 

I try to be completely open, a clean canvas, for that person. Not for the

reason of being noble or correct, but because I have noticed that whenever I

put a principle in between me and the patient, I miss someting.

 

So maybe that space I create for the person is - Yang - in relation to all

the information the person comes with.

 

the complexity of another being, another life and its vast experience, is

enormous. So I apply the principle of listening from the heart, and

listening to that persons heart, Xin. Usually the most important information

is communicated in that way (not just from CM theory, but really also my

empiric experience)

 

The communication as such, from heart to heart is I think Yang in relation

to ... ? ..hm... no communication?...

At least that function of the Xin is more Yang than the substance of the

heart, the cells, vessels, and Xue.

 

Thansk again for this invitation Ken... dinner is calling so need for a

break.

 

Holger

 

 

 

 

 

 

Från: " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008

Svara till: Chinese Medicine

Datum: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:27:39 -0000

Till: Chinese Medicine

Ämne: Yin/Yang Additional Questions

 

 

Usually when the topic of yin/yang theory

comes up people tend to respond in one

or another of just a few ways. Either they

think they know what it means and feel

insulted or attacked that anyone would

question their grasp of such a basic idea.

 

Or they demur from disucssion offering

the vastness, depth, or sheer incomprehensibility

of the subject as an explanation of why

they really have nothing to say.

 

I find that relatively few people actually have a

good grip on yin/yang theory. And despite

the fact that making such a statement more

or less implies that I feel my own grasp of

the topic is adequate to permit the making

of such judgments, I would include myself

in this group of people who do not have a

very good grip on yin/yang theory.

 

I have been studying it for so well over thirty

years now that it's getting a little scary.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I think that an

entire book should be dedicated to an exegesis

of this deceptively simple notion that would delineate

what the Chinese have had to say on the subject

and lay a foundation for further discussion of

the idea. And as I also said earlier, I would be

delighted to see someone take up this task

and do it properly.

 

Maybe someone can suggest prior publications

that have already advanced on such a target.

One of the best treatments of the subject in

English that I know is the piece in Science and

Civilization in China. I think it's Vol. II.

 

I believe that like so many " ideas " that come

from ancient China, yin/yang theory is meant

to be contemplated as well as applied and

that in the interactive dynamics of thinking

and doing a kind of gong fu develops that

serves to condition and cultivate the mind/body.

 

This is, in other words, a restatement of

the notion that Chinese thinking contains this

tendency to be process oriented.

 

But the key thing is that we have to think about

it and use it in our related study and work in

the clinic as well.

 

So the question has to arise:

 

How do we use yin/yang theory in the clinic?

 

And then that leads to a cascade of additional

questions, which I'm hoping you guys will

raise and talk about with me.

 

I'm wrestling with how to write about all

of this and will greatly appreciate input from

anyone who can offer insight into what you

actually do in the course of applying yin/yang

theory to a patient who walks through your door.

 

When you look at a patient what do you

see that tells you how his or her yin or yang

is doing?

 

And what do you do about that?

 

For the purpose of this particular thread of

discussion, I would like to limit the use of

theoretical references to yin and yang. Let's

just talk about yin and yang and try to find out

what we really do know and what we can

freely talk about.

 

How many satisfying discussions of yin/yang

theory have you had in the last year?

 

And whenever I talk about the subject I always

raise the question of what number most

accurately reflects the value structure of

yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

equal to some number, what is that number?

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> And whenever I talk about the subject I always

> raise the question of what number most

> accurately reflects the value structure of

> yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

> equal to some number, what is that number?

 

> Ken

 

 

Why do you raise that question, Ken?

 

 

One of many possible answers:

Phi The golden mean: 1,618........... indefinitely (or 0,618.....

inverted)

 

from: http://www.heartbeat2000.com/ :

 

Why, it may be asked, cannot Unity simply divide into two equal parts? Why

not have a proportion of one term, a:a? The answer is simply that with

equality there is no difference, and without difference there is no

perceptual universe, for, as the Upanishad says, ŒWhether we know it or not,

all things take on their existence from that which perceives them.¹ In a

static, equational statement one part nullifies the other. An asymmetrical

division is needed in order to create the dynamics necessary for progression

and extension from the Unity. Therefore the f (phi) proportion is the

perfect division of Unity: it is creative, yet the entire proportional

universe that results from it relates back to it and is literally contained

within it, since no term of the original division steps, as it were, outside

of the direct rapport with the initial division of Unity. This is the

essential difference between the division of unity by the square root of 2

and its division by f (phi), both of which are geometrical proportions.

 

take a look at this page if you get interested..... look at " golden mean " on

the left side

 

Holger

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Fernando, Ken, Attilio and All,

 

Your posts Fernando and Attilio address Ken's question so wonderfully. In

keeping with your efforts Fernando, my choice of numbers for yin/yang are +/- 1:

that its plus or minus one. The moon goes from empty to full to empty; the sun

goes from absent to high noon and returns to absent. This seems like +/- 1 to

me. Some might equally say 0 and 1, as in computer programming. But I like +/-

1 as well. We are a visual species, and our visual physiology involves a

constant stream of information when in " darkness " or non-use. When things pass

over the retina, the electrical simulation goes back and forth from negative

hyperpolarization to positive action potentials. This doubles what would have

been the normal effect of receptor stimulation. Kind of gets your attention.

So 0 and 1 or else +/- 1 would be my favorite numerical expressions for yin and

yang.

 

Regarding the dismissal of various verbal expressions as merely " new age " , I

would tend to ask which day of the past 5,000 years was not the new age? In

each of those days, people configured the sum of their available knowledge in

some expression. If someone has an insight regarding yin and yang which does

not specifically use the lineage of thought present in the original expression,

does that insight lack integrity? In order to make an oral tradition " living " ,

my own teachers tend to reinterpret ancient expressions in modern verbiage. As

Fernando and Ken both note, one understands yin and yang through daily usage ...

i.e. here in year 2003 with all of the content of human understanding in this

year.

 

Regarding wuji, my friend Shereen just reminded me of a meaning given to me

similarly in the past. As described by Shereen and from my own understanding,

wuji is primordial oneness out of which yin and yang emerge and submerge to

re-emerge again anew. Thus, as Fernando's teacher points out, it could only be

experienced in the moment as this moment's yin and yang emerges from it.

Breathing exercises from a myriad of traditions seem to employ an aspect of

primordial oneness akin to wuji out of which the breath arises: in and out.

Just my random thoughts regarding this sensibility.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

fernando b.

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:37 AM

Re: Yin/Yang Additional Questions

 

 

Attilio, Ken, All,

 

May I?

 

I came to Chinese medicine through martial arts. In particular TaiJi Quan,

long form, Yang style.

 

I recall my teacher, Dr. Wu, Shi Cun in Chicago, often placing much emphasis

to Wu Ji. He often stated that without an appreciation of Wu Ji, yin/yang had no

meaning. He quoted the classics often and said that Wu Ji is the mother of Taiji

and that Taiji was a pure expression of the interplay of yin/yang.

 

He also stated that this could only be understood with time and constant

practice. That verbal explanations would always come short and often miss the

mark. He was also my first CM teacher and encouraged us to always apply yin/yang

theory to our formulations of herbal prescriptions, tui na treatments and taiji

practice.

 

Dr. Wu would often say: " If it's too hot, cool it. If it's to hard, soften it.

If it's too cold, warm it " . He said that us, Westerners, were trying to make too

much of this yin/yang thing. He said that the theory evolved from very basic

observations of daily phenomena.

 

To him, what's more important in clinical practice is to teach patients to

return to the mother of taiji, Wu Ji. Without Wuji, patients would never be able

to discern the interplay between yin and yang.

 

When asked to define Wuji, he said that Wuji could not be defined; it could

only be experienced. He would often teach zhanzhuang practice both sitting and

standing to his patients. This practice, he said, would eventually settle the

chaos within the patient's mind and restore an inner awareness of wuji.

 

In my practice, I try to follow his example and teachings best I can. If the

patient is too hot, cool him/her...if it's too cold...

 

As far as a yin/yang number, I say 8; four of this and four of that.

 

Fernando

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> I'm wrestling with how to write about all

> of this and will greatly appreciate input from

> anyone who can offer insight into what you

> actually do in the course of applying yin/yang

> theory to a patient who walks through your door.

>

> When you look at a patient what do you

> see that tells you how his or her yin or yang

> is doing?

>

> And what do you do about that?

>

> For the purpose of this particular thread of

> discussion, I would like to limit the use of

> theoretical references to yin and yang. Let's

> just talk about yin and yang and try to find out

> what we really do know and what we can

> freely talk about.

>

> How many satisfying discussions of yin/yang

> theory have you had in the last year?

>

> And whenever I talk about the subject I always

> raise the question of what number most

> accurately reflects the value structure of

> yin and yang? In other words if yin/yang are

> equal to some number, what is that number?

>

> Ken

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Holger wrote:

> One of many possible answers:

> Phi, The golden mean: 1,618........... indefinitely (or

0,618..... inverted) >>>

 

 

Holger:

 

Nice reference. In complexity theory, living systems are far from

equilibrium. At equilibrium, there is no longer any dynamic

interaction and networking between elements, so the system dies.

 

The movement from wuji to taiji to yin/yang in Chinese philosophy

can be described on a smaller scale by the concepts of emergence and

self-organization from complexity theory. While the Chinese were

able to recognize these concepts, we now have developed them in the

West.

 

When patients ask me to explain CM, I always tell them it takes a

21st century science to explain a 2500 year old Chinese philosophy

because they are both attempting to describe living systems.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Holger,

 

>

>

> Why do you raise that question, Ken?

 

I ask this question about a numerical " cognate "

of the taiji diagram (to restate the proposition

in yet another way) in order to

 

1. See what people have to say

2. Get people thinking

3. Try and provoke unspoken considerations

4. Bring to light certain fallacies that exist quite commonly,

such as the frequently encountered notion that

yin/yang represents a primitive form of binary

computation...or some such thing.

 

Personally, I am more or less unconcerned

with " answers " to such questions. I'm much

more concerned, as I said earlier, that people

simply question their own assumptions as well

as those put forth by others.

 

I do always red flag answers such as " two " ,

because it treads into that binary territory,

and yin and yang represent a primitive

iteration of multi-variate logic, which can not

be reduced below the level of base three

without seriously disfiguring it.

 

One of the other closely related and quite

common misconceptions about yin and

yang is that they correspond to the values

of " good " and " evil " , which of course they

don't. But this is really just an abstract

rendition of the more concrete " 2 " answer,

and I'm always interested in ferreting out

the 2's in any crowd.

 

So I ask the question for reasons such

as these.

 

And I am always extremely grateful when

folks answer up, question up, and in general

move the whole discussion forward.

 

I am always reminded that one mind is

so limited, save that we can join with others

and thereby slip the bonds that make us

think of ourselves as limited.

 

Oh well...

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

If someone has an insight regarding yin and yang which does not specifically use

the lineage of thought present in the original expression, does that insight

lack integrity? In order to make an oral tradition " living " , my own teachers

tend to reinterpret ancient expressions in modern verbiage. As Fernando and Ken

both note, one understands yin and yang through daily usage ... i.e. here in

year 2003 with all of the content of human understanding in this year.

>>>>I totally agree with this however many would say it is just MSU if not

prewritten in past. Many in CM are quite fundamentalist about the medicine.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken, Attilio, James, Emanuel et all

 

I believe, just as you do Ken, that it is not the answers that are the point

of this contemplation, but the contemplation in itself, the opportunity to

Think, to discover presumptions, to make distinctions, to create space for

thoughts, and sometimes for insights. I love what you said about process

oriented thinking.

 

I believe taht Yin Yang is a distinction created and recreated by human

beings in our quest of understanding the fundamental laws and forces of the

universe. It is a distinction that invites to inquiery, to process and

contemplate upon, for everyone.

So please, everyone, share your original thinking with us.

 

Here is a line of thought, or a bowl of thoughts, that came to me this

morning in a break after brekfast, based upon two of Manfred Porkerts

thoughts; 1) Yang is more activity and Yin is more structivity, and 2) Yang

is not visible, only Yin.

 

But surely I can see activity, or can¹t I? I see motion, don¹t I? Or do I

see structure manifesting in different posistions and call that motion? Like

in a motion-picture; I see 24 still pictures per second and the illusion of

this is motion, activity. Maybe it is like that? I dont see the motion from

the projector behind me and not the movement of the light waves. I see

²objects² ²moving². What really penetrates my eyes are reflected light.

 

So I thought about the clinic and meeting patients. Is it possible that what

I see is only Yin, the structures, the manifestations? I see the skin, the

complexion, the body, its postures, and so on

 

And where is that which I don¹t see? The thoughts of that person, the

emotions, dreams, the MOTIVITY behind this person, fears, longings, values,

memories, perpective in life, the descicions she/he has made about herself

in life...

Is that more Yang in relationship to how it manifest?

 

Can this be a possible model to apply YinYang in the clinic?

I see her complexion, her movement, her complaint, her physical

manifestations, all strucutes that is reflected. And then asking ; what is

motivating this person?, what does she really need? what is she afriad of?

what has she denied in her life? what is she longing for?

 

Holger

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>Nice reference.

Yes! Lot's of interesting things.. read about their heart link machine that

visually shows in graphic form wwhat your heart feels!!!

 

> In complexity theory, living systems are far from

> equilibrium. At equilibrium, there is no longer any dynamic

> interaction and networking between elements, so the system dies.

 

Compatible with what Ken says about number 2. Imbalance is natural.

Imperfaection is perfect.

 

> The movement from wuji to taiji to yin/yang in Chinese philosophy

> can be described on a smaller scale by the concepts of emergence and

> self-organization from complexity theory. While the Chinese were

> able to recognize these concepts, we now have developed them in the

> West.

 

We have developed great things in the west!

 

> When patients ask me to explain CM, I always tell them it takes a

> 21st century science to explain a 2500 year old Chinese philosophy

> because they are both attempting to describe living systems.

> Jim Ramholz

 

Yes!!! ... I will use that, if I may ... I usually say that our science is

slowly getting us closer to CM

 

Holger