Request for Info

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken,

 

Please, I would appreciate hearing a discussion of these terms such as qi, yin,

yang etc.

 

Many times as I hear over again what I thought was so basic in OM, and I thought

I comprehended, has yet another layer of insight awaiting me.

 

Thank you

Sharon

 

Z'ev, Par, and All,

 

One of the things that caught my interest

some time ago with respect to the understanding

of Chinese medical terminology is the fact that

several words which serve pretty basic roles

in Chinese medical thinking, such as yin and yang,

qi, xu and shi, to name just a very few of the

most obvious and basic, actually seem to have

developed their own intrinsic meanings before

and outside of their usages in Chinese medicine.

 

No doubt many might find this fact to

be worthy of no more than a big ho hum

as they rush on towards ever greater

clinical efficacy. But I've always thought

that if one wanted to develop a firm

and durable grasp of the fundamentals

of the subject of tradtional Chinese

medicine, one should be able to get a grip

on the basic meanings of the words that

are used to define and describe medical

ideas, the body, and its various relationships

both internally and externally.

 

Lo and behold, The Art of War is a

relatively early appearance, at least

in terms of the written record that has

survived in some sort of verifiable tact

until today, of terms like ying and wei,

xu and shi, etc.; and the meanings associated

with such terms in the context of warfare

and military strategy have left a deep

impression on Chinese medical thought.

 

This is discussed at some length, albeit

altogether superficially, in the fourth

chapter of Who Can Ride the Dragon?

 

And I'm happy to get into it to whatever

extent there is interest. Perhaps it's

an aspect of the study of Chinese medicine

that others find dull, boring, and not

pertinent to the gritty reality of the

every day struggle for survival in the

clinic.

 

But I dig it.

 

Ken

 

PS. Attilio, you might want to play with

metaphors of war and medicine related to

" wind " .

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Ken,

I would appreciate if you could explain the word qi

and meridian and what is their conection to the TCM

medicine ?

Thanks a million,

Vanessa

 

 

> And I'm happy to get into it to whatever

> extent there is interest. Perhaps it's

> an aspect of the study of Chinese medicine

> that others find dull, boring, and not

> pertinent to the gritty reality of the

> every day struggle for survival in the

> clinic.

>

> But I dig it.

>

> Ken

>

> PS. Attilio, you might want to play with

> metaphors of war and medicine related to

> " wind " .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sharon and holger and Ken,

 

I too am interested...

 

However I also wonder can these terms be related to Yi Jing? and elaborated upon

in the sense that people have stated in the past that qi yin yang and Yi Jing

are fundamental to the study of Chinese medicine and most streams of TEAM...

 

I still has not grasped the Yi jing part and medicine and presumably that is

very alarming since it apparently has such an influence and relevancy to

medicine just like the above terms...

 

This to me brings up the query?

 

Maybe year 2004 " should " be the year when journals as a extended them tackle

this question from its various angels...

 

I can begin to grasp the idea that temporal and spatial factors are to greater

or lesser extent implied embedded into Yi jing and the terms qi yin yang as

well...

 

Was the first know written record of yin yang with the book of changes?

 

and when was qi if known or an educated guess first apparent in CM literature

and written works on the whole?

 

Z'ev mention at the traditional chinese herbs conference that the Nan Jing Classic

of Difficulties is MAINLY concern with time and timing (I presume...), hence

this by extension the is highly related to the terms qi yin yang and the book of

changes and or?

 

Is there a similar " link " in the Huang Di Nei Jing Yellow Thearch internal

classic (or how does Donal Harper translate this fascinating term, which by the

way was the name of the document and or given to the reminiscence of the

document, and is the whole yellow Therach book extent?)

 

Suppose Unsculd may be able to answer that although pretty sure some Japanese

and or otherwise scholarly work has been undertaken to " answer " this.

 

Eitherway fro me and TEAM CM connection and influence of book of changes remains

a vacant blank and this frankly worries me.

 

As an yearly them and or at least a them for various journals the following year

maybe could begin to remedy this apparently missing link of understanding qi yin

yang and hence medicine...

 

and good morning...

 

 

Marco

-

Holger Wendt

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, September 18, 2003 5:28 AM

Re: Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info

 

 

Yes Please, Ken... I to would appreciate hearing this... I agree completely

with Sharon.. new pespectives are always nourishing and welcome,

particularly with concepts that after awhile seems to be taken for granted

and loose their heuretic possibility . Holger

 

Dear Ken,

 

Please, I would appreciate hearing a discussion of these terms such as qi,

yin, yang etc.

 

Many times as I hear over again what I thought was so basic in OM, and I

thought I comprehended, has yet another layer of insight awaiting me.

 

Thank you

Sharon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes Please, Ken... I to would appreciate hearing this... I agree completely

with Sharon.. new pespectives are always nourishing and welcome,

particularly with concepts that after awhile seems to be taken for granted

and loose their heuretic possibility . Holger

 

Dear Ken,

 

Please, I would appreciate hearing a discussion of these terms such as qi,

yin, yang etc.

 

Many times as I hear over again what I thought was so basic in OM, and I

thought I comprehended, has yet another layer of insight awaiting me.

 

Thank you

Sharon

 

Z'ev, Par, and All,

 

One of the things that caught my interest

some time ago with respect to the understanding

of Chinese medical terminology is the fact that

several words which serve pretty basic roles

in Chinese medical thinking, such as yin and yang,

qi, xu and shi, to name just a very few of the

most obvious and basic, actually seem to have

developed their own intrinsic meanings before

and outside of their usages in Chinese medicine.

 

No doubt many might find this fact to

be worthy of no more than a big ho hum

as they rush on towards ever greater

clinical efficacy. But I've always thought

that if one wanted to develop a firm

and durable grasp of the fundamentals

of the subject of tradtional Chinese

medicine, one should be able to get a grip

on the basic meanings of the words that

are used to define and describe medical

ideas, the body, and its various relationships

both internally and externally.

 

Lo and behold, The Art of War is a

relatively early appearance, at least

in terms of the written record that has

survived in some sort of verifiable tact

until today, of terms like ying and wei,

xu and shi, etc.; and the meanings associated

with such terms in the context of warfare

and military strategy have left a deep

impression on Chinese medical thought.

 

This is discussed at some length, albeit

altogether superficially, in the fourth

chapter of Who Can Ride the Dragon?

 

And I'm happy to get into it to whatever

extent there is interest. Perhaps it's

an aspect of the study of Chinese medicine

that others find dull, boring, and not

pertinent to the gritty reality of the

every day struggle for survival in the

clinic.

 

But I dig it.

 

Ken

 

PS. Attilio, you might want to play with

metaphors of war and medicine related to

" wind " .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken and All,

Perhaps we could start with some factual information.

 

Like when did qi first appear to come into a conceptual use in the literature

and what did it replace?

 

Sharon

-

kenrose2008

Chinese Medicine

Friday, September 19, 2003 4:44 AM

Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info

 

 

All,

 

I'm not really sure what is needed and

wanted here with respect to the discussion

of the meanings of terms.

 

There is this book called A Brief History

of Qi in which a collection of literary

sources from across a span of nearly 3,000

years and a wide range of disciplines such

as the arts, " sciences " , medicine, qi gong,

martial arts, and so on are presented and

discussed. By reading this book, I think

folks can get a general sense of what the

Chinese have had to say about qi for the

past few millennia.

 

In my own terms, I think of qi with four

principal English terms:

 

connectivity

communication

change

movement

 

In the clinic, in order to assess where

a person's qi is at, I raise questions

such as:

 

where are there connections that ought

to exist but don't?

 

what parts of the body/mind should be

in communication that aren't?

 

what isn't changing that should be?

 

what is no longer moving that should be

gotten moving once again?

 

and so on.

 

Then I work to reconnect disconnected

parts and sub-assemblies of the whole

system; restore (or establish) communcation

between parts that should be communicating;

facilitate change; and encourage movement.

 

That little formula describes upwards

of 75% of everything I do in the clinic,

no matter the mode of therapy in use,

but mainly tuina.

 

Anyhow, I'm happy to talk about these

things with anyone who wants to. I'm

contemplating a new book specifically about

yin/yang in more or less the same approach

as A Brief History of Qi.

 

If someone else would take that idea

and do a good job of it I would be

most grateful.

 

But it's a tough one.

 

That would leave me more time to work on

my volume dedicated to the wordless teaching.

 

Marco, I'll try and get to your post

later this evening. It pretty much

blew my mind and I have to go and

eat something and think about it.

 

Ken

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken,

Sometimes it can be useful in discussion that might branch off in many

directions that we start with the beginning... you know... Once upon a time ...

kind of start.

 

In Birch and Felt, Understanding Acupuncture is quite a bit of work on the

history of qi. They too start with the idea of vapour clouds.

 

Also from memory, they speak that the introduction of the Qi paradigm hearld a

new era; prior to this the rationalisation for illness or anything had to do

with superstition... wind was literally moved by Spirit as in I think they

implied what we might call ghost. So whilst superstition probably still reigns,

in some thinking this concept of Qi matrix (my word) was quite revolutionary.

 

The introduction of Qi into conceptual thinking, I think occured with the

overall systemisation of Han periods... but I am no scholar, just a reader and

you offered to tell the story.....

Sharon

-

kenrose2008

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:27 AM

Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info

 

 

Sharon,

 

Chinese Medicine ,

wrote:

> Ken and All,

> Perhaps we could start with some factual information.

>

> Like when did qi first appear to come into a conceptual use in the

literature and what did it replace?

>

> Sharon

 

In A Brief History of Qi there is a great

deal of information about the origin of

the word qi, in many different contexts.

 

According to the Shuo Wen, the oldest

etymological dictionary of the Chinese

language, the glyph originally meant

something along the lines of the vapor

that rises to form clouds. As to the

date at which such a glyph-meaning

configuration first emerged, I believe

it is unknown and probably unknowable.

 

All we could hope to reasonably establish

is the age of artifacts, and I doubt that

any would be marked with " first edition "

signifcators, if you know what I mean.

 

It's use as a term in medical parlance

dates to the period of composition of

the Su Wen materials, which may span

several centuries from about the first

century B.C. to the second or third century

A.D. Paul Unschuld has commented (don't

ask me for the citation as I don't have

it to hand) that the term may reflect

some sort of influx of Mediterranean

thinking/terminology.

 

This flux of ideas in the ancient world

is a fascinating and highly complex subject.

 

Can I ask you why you're concerned about

the historicity of the term?

 

Ken

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the tip!

 

Please take the dialogue wherever you think best.

Cheers

Sharon

-

kenrose2008

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, September 20, 2003 12:58 PM

Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info

 

 

Sharon,

 

I did indeed promise to tell the story and

have been telling it for several years now.

 

I don't feel like retyping A Brief History of Qi,

and it sort of sounds like that's what you are

looking for. If you want to read a great

essay about the systematization of knowledge

in the Han, check out the intro to Original Dao

by Roger Ames and D.C. Lau, if you haven't

already read it.

 

It's the single best bit on Han epistemology and

philology that I've read; and it's very illuminating

with respect to the comprehension of some basic

ideas that figure into the formalization of medical

thought in the same period.

 

I'm not at all reluctant to " tell the story " but

just wonder if in this forum it might not be

better to use a more interactive format for

discussion of particular points, questions,

problems, etc.

 

Ken

 

Chinese Medicine ,

wrote:

> Hi Ken,

> Sometimes it can be useful in discussion that might branch off

in many directions that we start with the beginning... you know...

Once upon a time ... kind of start.

>

> In Birch and Felt, Understanding Acupuncture is quite a bit of

work on the history of qi. They too start with the idea of vapour

clouds.

>

> Also from memory, they speak that the introduction of the Qi

paradigm hearld a new era; prior to this the rationalisation for

illness or anything had to do with superstition... wind was literally

moved by Spirit as in I think they implied what we might call

ghost. So whilst superstition probably still reigns, in some

thinking this concept of Qi matrix (my word) was quite

revolutionary.

>

> The introduction of Qi into conceptual thinking, I think occured

with the overall systemisation of Han periods... but I am no

scholar, just a reader and you offered to tell the story.....

> Sharon

> -

> kenrose2008

> Chinese Medicine

> Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:27 AM

> Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re:

Request for Info

>

>

> Sharon,

>

> Chinese Medicine ,

> wrote:

> > Ken and All,

> > Perhaps we could start with some factual information.

> >

> > Like when did qi first appear to come into a conceptual use

in the

> literature and what did it replace?

> >

> > Sharon

>

> In A Brief History of Qi there is a great

> deal of information about the origin of

> the word qi, in many different contexts.

>

> According to the Shuo Wen, the oldest

> etymological dictionary of the Chinese

> language, the glyph originally meant

> something along the lines of the vapor

> that rises to form clouds. As to the

> date at which such a glyph-meaning

> configuration first emerged, I believe

> it is unknown and probably unknowable.

>

> All we could hope to reasonably establish

> is the age of artifacts, and I doubt that

> any would be marked with " first edition "

> signifcators, if you know what I mean.

>

> It's use as a term in medical parlance

> dates to the period of composition of

> the Su Wen materials, which may span

> several centuries from about the first

> century B.C. to the second or third century

> A.D. Paul Unschuld has commented (don't

> ask me for the citation as I don't have

> it to hand) that the term may reflect

> some sort of influx of Mediterranean

> thinking/terminology.

>

> This flux of ideas in the ancient world

> is a fascinating and highly complex subject.

>

> Can I ask you why you're concerned about

> the historicity of the term?

>

> Ken

>

>

>