Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind heat in the face takes a cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the reractions. According to what I have heard cortizon in particular puts a stick in the acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this correct? What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using cortizon.. which will be hard for her.. but she is willing to do that.. and then ... Is there any specific time that has to pass before treatment can be done? H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 acupuncture & western medicine can work quite well. but the repsonse can be slower than expected. try with general treatment & then if not possible try & follow up with kid energy treatment. this will try & negate the effects of cortisone . good luck. anand --- Holger Wendt <holger.wendt wrote: > > The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind > heat in the face takes a > cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the > reractions. According to > what I have heard cortizon in particular puts a > stick in the > acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this > correct? > > What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using > cortizon.. which will > be hard for her.. but she is willing to do that.. > and then ... Is there any > specific time that has to pass before treatment can > be done? > > H > > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hej Holger, Do not remember where I have read this but: according to some studies acupuncture can reduce the need for cortisone or at least reduce the amount. Jim and Z'ev what about a pulse and accordingly what can one do? In the Huang di nei Jing there are some " classifications of heat points " that may be relevant to this case. Holger have you got the book: Clinical Applications The Yellow Emperor's Canon on Internal Medicine, new world press? (available on redwings web site) This book may be of very much use to you specially if your more drawn to acumoxa then say Chinese medicines which in this case probably would help a lot. If you can study with Mazin Al-Khafaji do so...:-) or read some of his publish stuff and skin problems... Diet wise apart from certain restrictions such as dairy products and coffee presumably which approach would you use to maybe eliminate wind heat and supplement blood whilst depurating the lungs and so forth... It is getting cold now in Sweden or? Does the eczema change with seasonal changes? Is there any lung qi vacuity? Not sure why I ask maybe because your comment on her voice... Hope you can work with her and her western doctor in reducing the medicines if that is what she and you deem appropriate... Maybe she can take herbal baths? And a congee based sort of a diet (rice soup...) Did you to traditional chinese herbs discussion group also that is also of same quality as this list... There are some people there that use quite a lot of diet approaches to treatment I think. Also someone Named Nam Singh a toast Priest less I am remembering incorrectly comes with the highest recommendations namely from Emanuel Segmen with regard to CM and diet... Marco p.s. if the tongue is not to coated and maybe there is some reddishness more in the lung stomach area maybe some pear juice (not in great amounts since Sweden is pretty cold anyway...might be part of the treatment? - Holger Wendt Chinese Medicine Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:11 AM Re: eczema - cortizon The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind heat in the face takes a cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the reractions. According to what I have heard cortizon in particular puts a stick in the acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this correct? What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using cortizon.. which will be hard for her.. but she is willing to do that.. and then ... Is there any specific time that has to pass before treatment can be done? H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Dear Holger, Speaking as an acupuncturist and Chinese herbal medicine practitioner, I suspect that most people who use both these modalities would consider that CHM is markedly superior for treating eczema than acupuncture alone, although they can work well together. Many conditions respond pretty equally to acupuncture or CHM, but skin problems often seem to respond quite a lot better to herbal medicine. Therefore, if you have problems treating your patient with just acupuncture, you might wish to consider this. The main treatment for eczema in CM is internal, but external applications can be useful, such as herbal creams or washes. In some cases these help a lot, and they can be tailored to the specific diagnosis of the patient. Cortisone cream can help people a lot symtomatically, but in itself, I don't think it's curative, although in some cases, when symptoms remit, they don't return, at least not immediately. The relief that people can gain using an external treatment such as cortisone cream can be considerable, and it is reasonable to think about using an external treatment while treating internally with CM medical treatment. In my expreience, it is possible for people to improve using CM while using cortisone externally, but there are a few concerns, such as absorption of cortisone, changes to the skin with long term cortisone use, etc. From a natural medicine point of view (including CM), a concern with cortisone is that it is suppressing symtoms, possibly driving them in more deeply. The skin is an organ of elimination, and in a sense, although eczema itself is pathological, the eczema itself may reflect the body's actions of elimination. Furthermore, CM treatment can have to do with releasing the exterior, so you don't want to be pushing evil qi in. Otherwise, there are several things to consider with eczema - what type is it, etc., none of which cortisone treats, and which the suppressive effects of cortisone might aggravate from a CM point of view. I've had patients who had obtained, in China Town, PRC composite creams containing Chinese herbs and cortisone. People who have used this stuff have reported that it works better than either herbs or cortisone by itself. I note that these creams are illegal in the UK, and probably most or all of the west. I'm not recommending or condoning an illegal activity, but I would think that theoretically, if one needs symptomatic relief using a cream, and one needs something stronger than herbs alone, the composite cream is probably better than cortisone by itself, because there are more ingredients alleviating the irritiation, and probably also the actions at the energetic level are more conducive to healing. By the way, these Chinese compositie creams have created a lot of problems for UK CHM practitioners, because they are illegal and at least once were quite widely available, and sometimes contained high amounts of cortisone that could be inappropriate from a conventional medical standpoint. Going back to your question, I would think you could continue to have your patient use the cortisone cream, but you want to see improvement in the eczema from the acupuncture. If this doesn't happen after a number of treatments, you might want to consider having your patient take CHM, in addition to the acupuncture, or instead of it. If the eczema is improving, try stopping the cortisone cream. There are various other creams on the market that people can find helpful - besides herbal creams such as calendula, there are non-steroidal creams available from pharmacies that I've known to help people. Hope this helps. It's quite difficult to answer this question because really one should tailor advice to the exact case. Best wishes, Wainwright - " Holger Wendt " <holger.wendt <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 10:11 AM Re: eczema - cortizon The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind heat in the face takes a cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the reractions. According to what I have heard cortizon in particular puts a stick in the acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this correct? What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using cortizon.. which will be hard for her.. but she is willing to do that.. and then ... Is there any specific time that has to pass before treatment can be done? H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 very helpful. thanks a lot I really appreciate your response I agree that cortisone is no cure, but rather suppressing the healing process, and possibly driving the cause of the symptoms even deeper. Från: " Wainwright Churchill " <WChurchill Svara till: Chinese Medicine Datum: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:39:37 +0100 Till: <Chinese Medicine > Ämne: Re: Re: eczema - cortizon Dear Holger, Speaking as an acupuncturist and Chinese herbal medicine practitioner, I suspect that most people who use both these modalities would consider that CHM is markedly superior for treating eczema than acupuncture alone, although they can work well together. Many conditions respond pretty equally to acupuncture or CHM, but skin problems often seem to respond quite a lot better to herbal medicine. Therefore, if you have problems treating your patient with just acupuncture, you might wish to consider this. The main treatment for eczema in CM is internal, but external applications can be useful, such as herbal creams or washes. In some cases these help a lot, and they can be tailored to the specific diagnosis of the patient. Cortisone cream can help people a lot symtomatically, but in itself, I don't think it's curative, although in some cases, when symptoms remit, they don't return, at least not immediately. The relief that people can gain using an external treatment such as cortisone cream can be considerable, and it is reasonable to think about using an external treatment while treating internally with CM medical treatment. In my expreience, it is possible for people to improve using CM while using cortisone externally, but there are a few concerns, such as absorption of cortisone, changes to the skin with long term cortisone use, etc. From a natural medicine point of view (including CM), a concern with cortisone is that it is suppressing symtoms, possibly driving them in more deeply. The skin is an organ of elimination, and in a sense, although eczema itself is pathological, the eczema itself may reflect the body's actions of elimination. Furthermore, CM treatment can have to do with releasing the exterior, so you don't want to be pushing evil qi in. Otherwise, there are several things to consider with eczema - what type is it, etc., none of which cortisone treats, and which the suppressive effects of cortisone might aggravate from a CM point of view. I've had patients who had obtained, in China Town, PRC composite creams containing Chinese herbs and cortisone. People who have used this stuff have reported that it works better than either herbs or cortisone by itself. I note that these creams are illegal in the UK, and probably most or all of the west. I'm not recommending or condoning an illegal activity, but I would think that theoretically, if one needs symptomatic relief using a cream, and one needs something stronger than herbs alone, the composite cream is probably better than cortisone by itself, because there are more ingredients alleviating the irritiation, and probably also the actions at the energetic level are more conducive to healing. By the way, these Chinese compositie creams have created a lot of problems for UK CHM practitioners, because they are illegal and at least once were quite widely available, and sometimes contained high amounts of cortisone that could be inappropriate from a conventional medical standpoint. Going back to your question, I would think you could continue to have your patient use the cortisone cream, but you want to see improvement in the eczema from the acupuncture. If this doesn't happen after a number of treatments, you might want to consider having your patient take CHM, in addition to the acupuncture, or instead of it. If the eczema is improving, try stopping the cortisone cream. There are various other creams on the market that people can find helpful - besides herbal creams such as calendula, there are non-steroidal creams available from pharmacies that I've known to help people. Hope this helps. It's quite difficult to answer this question because really one should tailor advice to the exact case. Best wishes, Wainwright - " Holger Wendt " <holger.wendt <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 10:11 AM Re: eczema - cortizon The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind heat in the face takes a cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the reractions. According to what I have heard cortizon in particular puts a stick in the acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this correct? What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using cortizon.. which will be hard for her.. but she is willing to do that.. and then ... Is there any specific time that has to pass before treatment can be done? H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Hi All & Hi Holger > The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind heat in the face > takes a cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the > reractions. According to what I have heard cortizon in particular > puts a stick in the acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this > correct? What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using > cortizon.. which will be hard for her.. but she is willing to do > that.. and then ... Is there any specific time that has to pass > before treatment can be done? H One of the ways that AP can influence allergies & eczema is via release of endogenous corticoids. Large doses of exogenous steroids can inhibit the adrenal response to AP. Therefore, I want my patients to wean-down off steroids over a 2-3 week period before serious AP treatment begins. I would treat weekly in the meantime, but tell the subject not to expect maximal results for a few weeks. Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Thanks Phil this is something that fits in to my frame of mind at the moment. I will follow this protocol... Från: " " < Svara till: Chinese Medicine Datum: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:29:50 +0100 Till: Chinese Medicine Ämne: Re: Re: eczema - cortizon Hi All & Hi Holger > The eczema patient I mentioned earlier with wind heat in the face > takes a cortizon-based cream every other day to calm the > reractions. According to what I have heard cortizon in particular > puts a stick in the acupuncture-induced healing-wheel.. Is this > correct? What can one do in this case? Ask her to stop using > cortizon.. which will be hard for her.. but she is willing to do > that.. and then ... Is there any specific time that has to pass > before treatment can be done? H One of the ways that AP can influence allergies & eczema is via release of endogenous corticoids. Large doses of exogenous steroids can inhibit the adrenal response to AP. Therefore, I want my patients to wean-down off steroids over a 2-3 week period before serious AP treatment begins. I would treat weekly in the meantime, but tell the subject not to expect maximal results for a few weeks. Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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