statement of respect and gratitude

[Guest guest]

has merely a role in activating the healing process (or growing process) that is

already resident in the client.

>>>>Emmanuel these are concepts are from western healing traditions. According

to our friend unschuld they are not to be found any were in CM

Alon

 

Hi Alon,

 

Zheng Qi is not a part of Chinese medicine? I assumed Zheng Qi was operative

from the time one is a six pound infant to the size of an adult. Seems like

growing could be a part of that, but that's purely speculative on my part. I

didn't catch that part of Unschuld's rap that would reject this idea, but I'm

severely deficient in my reading of his words. I appreciate your correction of

my views if this is the correction you meant to make. In fact I'm always

grateful when you respond to me.

 

Alon (and Attilio, too), I thought I would take a moment to digress here. After

a phone conversation with this afternoon, it comes to me that I

might make a special notation here. What I want to note is that here on the TCM

list there are some teachers of merit. You Alon are published and teach CEUs

here in the U.S. Z'ev is the head of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.

Bob Felt is the own of Paradigm Press and Redwing Books. My sense of Fernando

Bernal is that he is worthy to be on any faculty at an American TCM college.

This is to name only a few of the many teachers and practitioners of merit on

this list of 400+ people. Thus, while it's easier here than on some lists to

hold forth in a fun and uninhibited manner, it also worthy of me to be

respectful of my betters. I've had a lot of Western science education and

taught human dissection in medical school in Texas along with human anatomy,

physiology and nutrition at colleges in California since 1988. My meager

education in Chinese medicine was acquired informally while working at ACTCM,

Min Tong Herbs and at Asia Natural over these past fifteen years since 1988. I

love philosophy of science and studied sciences to fulfill that yearning. I've

studied Chinese medicine avidly with individuals of great merit but can not ever

consider myself to be anything but a student of CM. I am most certainly no

practitioner (except on myself). I do distribute herbs and finished formulas

and have helped in the sourcing and understanding of herb growing traditions for

nearly a decade. But I am certainly no professional in Chinese medicine.

 

I am most impressed by people like Fernando or Ken Rose who claim to be

thoroughly confused by CM. I appreciate, Alon, when you as a teacher of CM can

hold forth that there is much gray area. Z'ev is so even, calm and insightful

in his posts. I'm so honored to be able to converse directly with the likes of

Bob Felt. As a college instructor in the sciences for seventeen years, I am

most heartened that we can annihilate the small ego sufficiently to embrace the

larger forces at play here. I hope that many others can join me in expressing

gratitude for the good teachers that we have on this list.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

Merritt College, Asia Natural

-

Alon Marcus

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:07 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

has merely a role in activating the healing process (or growing process) that

is already resident in the client.

>>>>Emmanuel these are concepts are from western healing traditions. According

to our friend unschuld they are not to be found any were in CM

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

Double Amen to that , who wants to mess with the big

Guns ???

)

 

I appreciate you guys patience to deal with my

discussions in the list. It is hard to plese all , but

I try to be honest with myself and my realization

within theis energetic system TCM.

 

VAnessa

 

 

 

> honored to be able to converse directly with the

> likes of Bob Felt. As a college instructor in the

> sciences for seventeen years, I am most heartened

> that we can annihilate the small ego sufficiently to

> embrace the larger forces at play here. I hope that

> many others can join me in expressing gratitude for

> the good teachers that we have on this list.

>

> In gratitude,

> Emmanuel Segmen

> Merritt College, Asia Natural

> -

> Alon Marcus

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:07 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

>

>

> has merely a role in activating the healing

> process (or growing process) that is already

> resident in the client.

> >>>>Emmanuel these are concepts are from western

> healing traditions. According to our friend unschuld

> they are not to be found any were in CM

> Alon

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Zheng Qi is not a part of Chinese medicine? I assumed Zheng Qi was operative

from the time one is a six pound infant to the size of an adult.

 

>>>>I just heard Unschouls give a talk on this. My first question was yours,

what about zheng qi. He explained that zhong qi is at no point and at any time

been described as an innate healing power. He want on to first explain the

history of the word zheng and its relationship to correctness.It actually the

opposite of what we think in western medical thinking i.e. the bodies ability to

fight disease ON IT OWN. Its about balance which must be maintained by doing

something.The concept of let things alone the body will take care of it self is

wholly a western idea. Zheng qi is about keeping everything in order, and

according to him if you look at the entire literature of the time zheng had to

due as much with political power, ie putting down any revolt immediately, as it

is described in medicine.

For me this is a very important difference and may explain why so little clear

discussion is found on outcome in CM classic literature or discussion on

" natural healing " . It explains why there is always something you can do in CM,

regardless of disease or if it is really known to be effective. If the idea of

the illness healing itself anyway is not part of the structure of thought, then

one always assumes that what you did is responsible for the change. And is still

responsible for much of discussions we see here all the time.

Alon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> >>>>I just heard Unschouls give a talk on this. My first

question was yours, what about zheng qi. He explained that

zhong qi is at no point and at any time been described as an

innate healing power. He want on to first explain the history of

the word zheng and its relationship to correctness.

 

So, I just gotta ask:

 

Have you now found your long sought

example of an instance in which knowing

what the Chinese term actually is and means

really does help you understand the idea?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

So, I just gotta ask:

 

Have you now found your long sought

example of an instance in which knowing

what the Chinese term actually is and means

really does help you understand the idea?

 

>>>>Ken i have never argued against learning what the terms mean. I have always

said that if one is to consider time, then learning the meanings of terms in

one's own language is more efficient. And since at best we are talking about a

4000 hr program at schools, which is very short, then other subjects are more

important. But please let us not go there again

Alon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel wrote: Zheng Qi is not a part of Chinese medicine? I assumed Zheng Qi

was operative from the time one is a six pound infant to the size of an adult.

 

>>>>I just heard Unschouls give a talk on this. My first question was yours,

what about zheng qi. He explained that zhong qi is at no point and at any time

been described as an innate healing power. He want on to first explain the

history of the word zheng and its relationship to correctness.It actually the

opposite of what we think in western medical thinking i.e. the bodies ability to

fight disease ON IT OWN. Its about balance which must be maintained by doing

something.The concept of let things alone the body will take care of it self is

wholly a western idea. Zheng qi is about keeping everything in order, and

according to him if you look at the entire literature of the time zheng had to

due as much with political power, ie putting down any revolt immediately, as it

is described in medicine.

For me this is a very important difference and may explain why so little clear

discussion is found on outcome in CM classic literature or discussion on

" natural healing " . It explains why there is always something you can do in CM,

regardless of disease or if it is really known to be effective. If the idea of

the illness healing itself anyway is not part of the structure of thought, then

one always assumes that what you did is responsible for the change. And is still

responsible for much of discussions we see here all the time.

Alon

 

Hi Alon,

 

Thanks for your detailed response! Yes, I can see Unschuld's point here. He

notes that the balance point can be moved even if the individual is not

presenting with signs and symptoms. That is, you as a practitioner can move the

balance point to a new accommodation even if the person is not ill. All things

move the balance point. I'm wondering if CM does not account for momentum or

set-points. That is, I can stop taking a tonic formula that accommodates my

long distance running. Yet, I can still perform normally for some time before

things wind down, and it's time to tonify again. Also this perspective does not

account for the fact that after an injury, there is strong programming in the

tissues that would promote the healing of wounds. Does CM overlook such

adjustments to homeostasis that we normally refer to as healing?

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Helo Emmanuel, great pointers.

 

I feel that this meachanism is built within the process of chi energy as part of

the regulatory process built in the CHi itself.

 

All things have a tendency to get to balance in one way or another.

 

I feel too, that many principles are not chinese or anybody else is part of the

TAO the ways things was made and operate. But we for the need to have a place in

which to stand put an origin to it.

 

 

 

By the way we need to invite all the members for a group Hug , so we can keep

ourselves sane ))

 

 

 

Vanessa

>>

Emmanuel wrote it:

 

Hi Alon,

 

Thanks for your detailed response! Yes, I can see Unschuld's point here. He

notes that the balance point can be moved even if the individual is not

presenting with signs and symptoms. That is, you as a practitioner can move the

balance point to a new accommodation even if the person is not ill. All things

move the balance point. I'm wondering if CM does not account for momentum or

set-points. That is, I can stop taking a tonic formula that accommodates my

long distance running. Yet, I can still perform normally for some time before

things wind down, and it's time to tonify again. Also this perspective does not

account for the fact that after an injury, there is strong programming in the

tissues that would promote the healing of wounds. Does CM overlook such

adjustments to homeostasis that we normally refer to as healing?

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Also this perspective does not account for the fact that after an injury, there

is strong programming in the tissues that would promote the healing of wounds.

Does CM overlook such adjustments to homeostasis that we normally refer to as

healing?

 

>>>Well it is a little curious that it is not part of the discussion even

though, obviously, the Chinese were aware of it. They definitely new that not

all people go to see a Dr and never the less are healed.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Whoa!

 

Slow down there big buddy.

 

How many times have you said that you are still

waiting for anyone to show you one single example

of how knowing the Chinese significations of a

Chinese medical term can help in clinical application?

 

We don't need to " go there again " as far

as I'm concerned. It seems to me that

now rather than argue against the efficacy

of learning the actual meanings of terms

you are giving examples of how knowing

what they mean...in this particular case

knowing what Paul Unschuld says a particular

term means...helps clarify the clinical encounter.

 

As always, I am not really all that interested

in the curricula of the schools other than

to note, yet again, since you brought it

up, that these 4,000 hours do tend to exclude

adequate study of the nomenclature.

 

By the way, the idea that there is some dichotomy or

conflict between the original and one's native

language meanings is sheer nonsense...there's

just the meanings themselves. The opportunity

to engage in translation provides insights

that can benefit everyone involved.

 

But as you see, we've each got to do the

particular work of knowing particular terms.

 

Then and only then will the deeper meanings,

i.e., the methods of effecting clinical interventions,

come clearly into view.

 

And since you've never argued against

this view, well then we can move right along

to the next topic:

 

Truth and reconcilliation.

 

Ken

 

) Chinese Medicine ,

" ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> So, I just gotta ask:

>

> Have you now found your long sought

> example of an instance in which knowing

> what the Chinese term actually is and means

> really does help you understand the idea?

>

> >>>>Ken i have never argued against learning what the terms

mean. I have always said that if one is to consider time, then

learning the meanings of terms in one's own language is more

efficient. And since at best we are talking about a 4000 hr

program at schools, which is very short, then other subjects are

more important. But please let us not go there again

> Alon

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

....there's

just the meanings themselves. The opportunity

 

>>>>That is my point Ken. Again we have a very different view as to the best way

to use one's time in a 4000 hour study course. You keep saying that

understanding the terms means having to know Chinese. but for example the

explanation that I gave on Zheng was given to me in English. I do not have to

know the word zheng or how to write it. Now, I do think all schools must have

instructors that either know the chinese or their meaningS in there own langue,

and i have never said otherwise. The terms must be understood they is no way

around that.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Chinese Medicine , " Alon

Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> ...there's

> just the meanings themselves. The opportunity

>

> >>>>That is my point Ken. Again we have a very different view

as to the best way to use one's time in a 4000 hour study

course. You keep saying that understanding the terms means

having to know Chinese.

 

I do? I can't remember saying that

for ages.

 

In fact, after my couple of weeks in the wilderness

I've come to think that everyone should just invent

their own language and to hell with what other

people mean by any word whatsoever.

 

Naw. Just kidding.

 

Of course you're absolutely right, Alon.

 

We have to understand the terms.

 

Now...how are we going to do that?

 

Will we wait around until someone tells us

what they all mean?

 

but for example the explanation that I gave on Zheng was given

to me in English.

 

Well, someone got it from the Chinese.

 

I do not have to know the word zheng or how to write it. Now, I do

think all schools must have instructors that either know the

chinese or their meaningS in there own langue, and i have never

said otherwise. The terms must be understood they is no way

around that.

 

OK. So where are these people going to come

from?

 

Point them out. Name names, Alon.

 

Who are our saviours?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Good points.

 

V

>>

By the way, the idea that there is some dichotomy or

conflict between the original and one's native

language meanings is sheer nonsense...there's

just the meanings themselves. The opportunity

to engage in translation provides insights

that can benefit everyone involved.

 

But as you see, we've each got to do the

particular work of knowing particular terms.

 

Then and only then will the deeper meanings,

i.e., the methods of effecting clinical interventions,

come clearly into view.

 

And since you've never argued against

this view, well then we can move right along

to the next topic:

 

Truth and reconcilliation.

 

Ken

 

) Chinese Medicine ,

" ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> So, I just gotta ask:

>

> Have you now found your long sought

> example of an instance in which knowing

> what the Chinese term actually is and means

> really does help you understand the idea?

>

> >>>>Ken i have never argued against learning what the terms

mean. I have always said that if one is to consider time, then

learning the meanings of terms in one's own language is more

efficient. And since at best we are talking about a 4000 hr

program at schools, which is very short, then other subjects are

more important. But please let us not go there again

> Alon

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

.. So where are these people going to come

from?

 

Point them out. Name names, Alon.

 

Who are our saviours?

>>>>>Ken i thought we were talking about priorities in a four year collage.

Obviously someone must learn Chinese to translate Chinese.

 

Ken can you share some of what you guys discussed at the workshop in the woods.

It sounds like it was an interesting interaction. Do you have more insight to

Unschuld's interpretations?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> >>>>>Ken i thought we were talking about priorities in a four

year collage. Obviously someone must learn Chinese to

translate Chinese.

 

Well, wrong again. We were talking about

whether or not you had finally found your

long sought example of how knowing what

a Chinese medical term means in Chinese

(even if it's explained in English) is a helpful

thing.

 

I seldom if ever talk about priorities in

a four year college.

 

 

>

> Ken can you share some of what you guys discussed at the

workshop in the woods. It sounds like it was an interesting

interaction. Do you have more insight to Unschuld's

interpretations?

 

I am working on it. If you can be patient for

a few more days, I promise to share every

little bit of insight I can muster.

 

Ken

 

 

> Alon

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes Ken what happen in the neck of the woodsssssssss )

 

I am interested too in the discussion. Anything said about Cm based on energetic

side of the woods ??

 

Vanessa

 

 

>>

Ken can you share some of what you guys discussed at the workshop in the woods.

It sounds like it was an interesting interaction. Do you have more insight to

Unschuld's interpretations?

Alon