James Ramholz and pulse question

[Guest guest]

Hello James, I myself am very interested in pulse diagnosis.

I would like to ask you a question just for the stimulation of brain matter )

 

WIll be a pleasure just to hear your insights;

 

1-What is the difference in pulse quality between liver stagnation ( as in Qi

stagnation)

and liver yin deficiency?

 

2- Does in your point of view : Do you see a direct and indirect relationship

between the pulse and the organs as in TCM physiology??

 

Vanessa

 

>>

James Ramholz wrote:

Attilio asked me to provide a brief bio for the forum.

 

My main interest in CM is pulse diagnosis, which has become my

specialty. I have written a number of articles on the subject (which

are being collected into a book, due out next year) and have been

travelling around the country for the past few years to lecture. To

learn this skill, I studied with Korean master, Jiang Jing, for the

past 20 or more years and became his head student in 1991. The Dong

Han Pulse Diagnosis system is based on the Chinese classics, and

develops the subject much further. While not as widely known as the

Shen/Hammer system, Leon Hammer refers to it in his book.

 

I am currently on the faculty of the Colorado School of Traditional

, in Denver; and travel regularly to teach at the

Southeast Institute of Oriental Medicine, in Miami.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

<<< Hello James, I myself am very interested in pulse diagnosis.

I would like to ask you a question just for the stimulation of brain

matter )

 

Will be a pleasure just to hear your insights;

 

1-What is the difference in pulse quality between liver stagnation

(as in Qi

stagnation) and liver yin deficiency?

 

2- Does in your point of view: Do you see a direct and indirect

relationship

between the pulse and the organs as in TCM physiology?? >>>

 

 

 

Vanessa:

Thanks for your interest.

Question 1:

Stagnation for the liver primarily means that its function of growth

and ability to spread the qi (and blood) has been impaired. It can

show up in a variety of ways depending on how the liver is

interacting with other organs and systems. In the pulse, the rising

and spreading portions of any movement are wood qi (each element is

composed of another 5 Elements on a smaller scale). We often see

this rising and spreading action impaired in the left Middle

position by a Tense or Wiry pulse. In this case, it can be due to

insufficient yin (often from lack of kidney support), emotional and

nervous stress impeding the flow, or other factors. This tension

indicates that the liver qi is being held and not spreading. If it

detected on the liver area then there is such kind of a spastic

condition, it could be leading towards the muscle, or spleen, to

stomach, etc., but that is one thing that you know for sure that it

is basically spastic pain. When it is tight like that then it could

be pain right around the liver area, or it could be a sharp pain

around the spleen, right under the diaphragm.

 

Other types of stagnation include:

 

Sinking pulse in the Middle position.

If the liver pulse is Sinking, remember that it could be Sinking at

many different depths. It basically means that it does not have

enough yang energy which could indicate there is not enough blood

circulation around the liver involvement. It could also mean around

the stomach, so there is stomach pain because of the cold stagnation

in the stomach area. If it is deep it also suggests cold hands and

feet and swelling of the hypochondrium on both sides, especially

around the liver and the spleen. Basically it indicates that there

is yang energy deficiency around the liver; so the whole digestive

area or the middle warmer area is lacking heat.

 

Slow pulse in the Middle position.

If the liver pulse is Slow, Slow really means that it is coming a

little slower then other positions so it is delayed and indicates

that the qi is not reaching the position at the same time as when

the blood or material arrives; so blood will be there but there is

no thrust of qi so that you can imagine that there is something

hitting behind. So basically this is a stagnation of qi which will

cause stagnation of blood in that area as well, so this is the pain

in the abdominal area and coldness in the chest.

 

Slippery pulse in the Middle position.

When the liver pulse is Slippery it indicates heat in the liver. It

could also lead to heat around the scalp and heat around the eye; so

it could lead to some kind of migraine if it more of a floating type

of a condition. So if it is Floating it could affect the gall

bladder and it could affect the gall bladder channel and cause a

migraine headache.

 

Sandy pulse in the Middle position.

Sandy pulse basically indicates coldness, roughness of the energy

flow, malnourishment. Basically it does not have enough ying qi so

it turns into to a Sandy pulse. So if he pulse is sandy in the liver

position, it will indicate that the liver does not have enough ying

qi or nutrition in the area. So it could indicate a liver involved

blood deficiency and due to liver involvement with the urogenital

system, in the case of females it could many times indicate a

problem with uterine hemorrhage, so it could indicate irregularity

of period---hemorrhage. When it is Sandy like that it could many

times lead to edema or coldness in the stomach and swelling type of

pain.

 

Question 2:

Because we divide each position into smaller sectors which

dramatically increases the amount of diagnostic information, we can

examine all the organs as well as other parts of the body---even

those that the Chinese did not directly discuss in the classic

literature: thyroid, adrenals, etc. I've taken the liberty of

uploading an article of mine to the files section of the forum on

this topic--- " Organs and Their Associated Pulses. "

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hello James , I find your explanations very interesting and full of angles that

it is hard to bring up in words, but you have an easy way to describe.

I would like to ask another question, again just for the sake of stimulating

pulse understanding.

 

 

My question is :

 

Based on your desription of sinking pulse in the Middle

 

 

James wrote:

" So basically this is a stagnation of qi which will

cause stagnation of blood in that area as well, so this is the pain

in the abdominal area and coldness in the chest. " "

 

Taking this version above: could we agree that at some stage in this developing

process, that a full strong pulse could come up, meaning a stronger form of

stagnation?

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Vanessa wrote:

> James wrote:

" So basically this is a stagnation of qi which will cause stagnation

of blood in that area as well, so this is the pain in the abdominal

area and coldness in the chest. " "

>

> Taking this version above: could we agree that at some stage in

this developing process, that a full strong pulse could come up,

meaning a stronger form of stagnation? >>>

 

 

 

Vanessa:

 

This condition can develop in any number of ways, depending on the

interaction with other positions. What you're describing sounds like

the development of a blockage. If an area is stagnant and a strong

movement subsequently comes up (during a treatment, during a strong

emotion, or during physical activity), the stagnation could block

that movement and cause a new problem. It could lock in the previous

condition or during the transaction aggravate the condition. You can

think of it something like empty pipes that bang loudly when water

pressure first suddenly comes through, or two weather fronts

colliding.

 

The latter is a good metaphor for what happens in the Fall when the

qi circulation moves more deeply and is no longer at the surface. If

there is dampness in the lungs during the summer (for example,

because it is a Ram year and/or summer heat dries up fluids to

create dampness), the qi flow contrast isn't very strong and there

are few, if any, symptoms. But when the pulses run more deeply due

to the seasonal change, that qi flow can stir up the dampness and

create " new " symptoms.

 

Are you thinking of a specific condition or case?

 

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

>>Hello James I will delighted to read this article.

 

Could you send it to me ?

 

Vanessa

 

 

 

>>an article of mine to the files section of the forum on

this topic--- " Organs and Their Associated Pulses. "

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Vanessa wrote:

> >>Hello James I will delighted to read this article.

>

> Could you send it to me ? >>>

 

 

 

The article is in PDF format and is in the " Files " section of the

forum. You can download it from there.

[Guest guest]

>.Middle

position by a Tense or Wiry pulse. In this case, it can be due to

insufficient yin (often from lack of kidney support), emotional and

nervous stress impeding the flow, or other factors.>>

 

 

Hello James I find this very common in clinical setting and it amazes me your

description on the side of yin deficiency coming to play a role in the liver

dysfucntion with a pulse quality of wiry, meaning a loss of a yin smooth touch

in the pulse.

I need to clear that many of the pulse information seems white and black, but

the turns, facet, angles that comes along within the pulse quality plays an

immense amount of pathological information that many times is lost by the

ssuperficial taking of the pulse and you have the ability to bring into words

the many facets or adjectives connect to it.

 

So it is a pleasure to read.

 

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Vanessa wrote:

> I need to clear that many of the pulse information seems white and

black, but the turns, facet, angles that comes along within the

pulse quality plays an immense amount of pathological information

that many times is lost by the superficial taking of the pulse and

you have the ability to bring into words the many facets or

adjectives connect to it. >>>

 

 

Vanessa:

 

Thanks for your kind remark. In these comments I've tried to keep to

a basic TCM perspective. But the Dong Han system incorporates much,

much more detail and sophistication. It includes and expands upon

what is only mentioned or hinted at in the classics. If you look at

some of the articles, you can get a better sense of how the Dong Han

system develops these ideas.

 

 

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hello James you answered very well.

The statement you post below define the process in the

quality in combination with pressure.

The idea pipes and water pressure are very nice.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

Vanessa

 

James wrote it:

 

>It could lock

> in the previous

> condition or during the transaction aggravate the

> condition. You can

> think of it something like empty pipes that bang

> loudly when water

> pressure first suddenly comes through, or two

> weather fronts

> colliding.

>

> The latter is a good metaphor for what happens in

> the Fall when the

> qi circulation moves more deeply and is no longer at

> the surface. If

> there is dampness in the lungs during the summer

> (for example,

> because it is a Ram year and/or summer heat dries up

> fluids to

> create dampness), the qi flow contrast isn't very

> strong and there

> are few, if any, symptoms. But when the pulses run

> more deeply due

> to the seasonal change, that qi flow can stir up the

> dampness and

> create " new " symptoms.

>

> Are you thinking of a specific condition or case?

>

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello James another question :

 

I find this special pulse maybe 4 times a year and it

is very interesting.

I would ike to ask in curiosity as what is your

opinion based on you clinical knowledge of pulses:

Pulse of the heart - very smooth, calm, light in

strenght, but as if was normal for this pulse

circunstance, no real dysfunctinal pattern besides

this amazing smoothness and camlmeness.

The other pulses was not of in as much disturbance

with little anomalities, with no real abnormal

pathological picture.

But the heart pulse was as if this pulse was if on his

own without really interacting with any other pulse

functions

I hope I delivered the pulse picture enought so you

could translate this curious phenomenon.

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Vanessa wrote:

> But the heart pulse was as if this pulse was if on his

> own without really interacting with any other pulse

> functions

> I hope I delivered the pulse picture enought so you

> could translate this curious phenomenon.

 

 

 

Vanessa:

 

While it's sometimes difficult to identify a pulse description

without seeing it myself (it's like describing music that the other

person hasn't heard), your description sounds like the heart or shen

is isolating itself due to earlier emotional trauma. This is not

uncommon. Even when patients feel that they have resolved their

emotional stress, the pulse often shows that they haven't. They may

have come to some new accomodation of the situation and increased

level of comfort, but the issue is not totally resolved. It won't

always have that much effect on their health; but often it does

indirectly.

 

Your description is apt for this condition; especialy when liver

doesn't seem to readily connect. Depending on the quality and depth,

you can judge how long the isolation or blockage has been there and

to what degree it is affecting them.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Hello JAmes , your opinion of this pulse pattern

definies the case. I knew tio be an emotional picutre

and I was trying not to give you much info, so you

could judged yourself by the information I gave you.

Thanks for playing.

Vanessa

>

> Vanessa:

>

> While it's sometimes difficult to identify a pulse

> description

> without seeing it myself (it's like describing music

> that the other

> person hasn't heard), your description sounds like

> the heart or shen

> is isolating itself due to earlier emotional trauma.

> This is not

> uncommon. Even when patients feel that they have

> resolved their

> emotional stress, the pulse often shows that they

> haven't. They may

> have come to some new accomodation of the situation

> and increased

> level of comfort, but the issue is not totally

> resolved. It won't

> always have that much effect on their health; but

> often it does

> indirectly.

>

> Your description is apt for this condition;

> especialy when liver

> doesn't seem to readily connect. Depending on the

> quality and depth,

> you can judge how long the isolation or blockage has

> been there and

> to what degree it is affecting them.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>