Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

[Guest guest]

Wainwright Churchill wrote:

Dear Attilio, [my spell checker suggested your name should be

spelled as 'Attila'!!!]

 

Attilio: Ahh yes, that's where the name originates from. There is

also a Turkish and Greek version along with my Italian one.

 

Wainwright: I do know that the many herbal groups that have

considered regulation carefully don't share your concerns, and are

very anxious that the Council for Complementary Medicine umbrella

group is established, including acupuncture as one of the modalities

it covers. This is for several reasons, including

 

a.. Cost

b.. The possibility of disciplines being regulated as systems of

medicine, such as 'TCM', and not as abstract technical modalities,

such as 'herbal medicine' or 'acupuncture'.

 

Attilio: Well, I hardly call acupuncture and herbs otherwise known

as TCM abstract. And nor is it a complementary medicine. TCM

encompasses a whole system of healthcare within itself and is

therefore not complementary to anything. By all means, lets pick

and choose the best aspects from both and utilise them together. The

trouble is when you start clubbing things together, as your

mentioned above. Why should TCM be categorised along side crystal

healing or the Alexander technique. Even though these are both

worthy practices they do not aim to treat the person comprehensively

as is the case with TCM. Therefore, this categorisation demeans

TCM's productive talents in the forum of public healthcare.

 

Wainwright: The CCAM proposal also allows the possibility of other

systems being regulated individually, so one could have explicit

regulation of different styles of acupuncture. I'm sure that people

will readily appreciate that there are great differences between

Japanese and TCM acupuncture, and in Japan, people take courses of

several years duration without covering TCM. I personally think it

takes several years of study to adequately practice TCM acupuncture,

and the same must be true for styles of Japanese acupuncture. It is

arguable that a Japanese acupuncturist should not have to study TCM

(which is after all a modern, state-supported interpretation and

version of a much larger tradition of Chinese medicine) to a level

of professional competence, just to be state registered as

an 'acupuncturist'. What is important is that one has mastered the

style of acupuncture which one practises, and that this style is of

sufficient depth to merit official validation by being state

registered.

 

Attilio: It's a shame when it takes several years to master Japanese

acupuncture and roughly the same time for TCM acupuncture, when

doctors or nurses and physiotherapists for that matter, and yes I

grant you, who have studied the relative areas of medicine such as

anatomy, physiology, pathology and pharmacology, can do it in a

weekend. Even with the aforementioned healthcare components in hand,

one should still require a basic minimum of 2.5-3 years additional

Oriental education.

 

Attilio

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone,

 

Perhaps, we should be aware that there is no such thing as Japanese acupuncture,

that is a western term

by which I suspect people mean meridian therapy. The emphasis is on the

condition of qi in the meridians rather than on organ, zang-fu pathologies.

 

There is a pluralistic abundance of acupuncture styles in Japan...from

scientific both Newtonian and quantum approaches, through to family traditions

and newer schools that broke in the 1930's from the westernised practice of

needling nerve roots back to the study of the Han classics, as well as oral

traditions passed down over centuries and also TCM style formal schools.

 

The basis of many styles have their roots in the Han classics. Students seek

traineeships or apprenticeships after formally finishing AP school.

 

Finally there are three State licenses, one for acupuncture, one for massage and

one for herbs.

 

Ironically these licences where actually put in place by the American General

Macarthur, after

WWII, when there was an attempt to totally crush AP and leave it legally to the

hands of western

trained physicians.

 

A good description of the deepth and variety of study and practice of Japanese

acup can be found in Birch and Ida's book, Japanese Acupuncture.

 

Regards

Sharon

 

 

Wainwright: The CCAM proposal also allows the possibility of other

systems being regulated individually, so one could have explicit

regulation of different styles of acupuncture. I'm sure that people

will readily appreciate that there are great differences between

Japanese and TCM acupuncture, and in Japan, people take courses of

several years duration without covering TCM. I personally think it

takes several years of study to adequately practice TCM acupuncture,

and the same must be true for styles of Japanese acupuncture. It is

arguable that a Japanese acupuncturist should not have to study TCM

(which is after all a modern, state-supported interpretation and

version of a much larger tradition of Chinese medicine) to a level

of professional competence, just to be state registered as

an 'acupuncturist'. What is important is that one has mastered the

style of acupuncture which one practises, and that this style is of

sufficient depth to merit official validation by being state

registered.

 

Attilio: It's a shame when it takes several years to master Japanese

acupuncture and roughly the same time for TCM acupuncture, when

doctors or nurses and physiotherapists for that matter, and yes I

grant you, who have studied the relative areas of medicine such as

anatomy, physiology, pathology and pharmacology, can do it in a

weekend. Even with the aforementioned healthcare components in hand,

one should still require a basic minimum of 2.5-3 years additional

Oriental education.

 

Attilio

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine ,

wrote:

 

>

> Finally there are three State licenses, one for acupuncture, one

for massage and one for herbs.

>

 

 

Moxibustion is separately licensed in Japan. Herbs are not permitted

within scope of practice unless the acupuncturist is also licensed as

a medical doctor or pharmacist.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

Sharon

 

In california....Dr. John Chen travels around the US.....he was first trained

as a pharmacist and was working over the counter dispensing drugs but also in

drug manufacturing - then went to study TCM herbal medicine with his father

if I remember the sequence correctly. Now he lectures on TCM herbal medicine.

He is not as traditional as his father but adds a tremendous benefit of

perspective to the profession. Yet I don't believe that it is necessary for one

to

have both to be a good herbalist. It doesn;t hurt. Then again the political

climate might dictate something different in different areas of the world.

 

> Hi Robert,

> Yes that is true about the herbal license.

>

> Do you think that being a pharmacist as well as a herbalist is a good idea?

>

> Regards

> Sharon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert,

Yes that is true about the herbal license.

 

Do you think that being a pharmacist as well as a herbalist is a good idea?

 

Regards

Sharon

-

kampo36

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 08, 2003 7:07 AM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

wrote:

 

>

> Finally there are three State licenses, one for acupuncture, one

for massage and one for herbs.

>

 

 

Moxibustion is separately licensed in Japan. Herbs are not permitted

within scope of practice unless the acupuncturist is also licensed as

a medical doctor or pharmacist.

 

robert hayden

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your comments, Sharon.

 

I was aware of what you're talking about, when I spoke about regulating

'Japanese acupuncture'. This highlights to an even greater extent the

problems of 'one size fits all' regulation for acupuncture, given that any

profound individual system of acupuncture probably takes several years to

learn. There's the danger that if you require a common-core curriculum for

the training of acupuncturists, for example by requiring a high level of

TCM, this will inhibit the practice of other styles.

 

What's the solution? Well, you could have no regulation at all, the

situation that currently exists in the UK, but the government, consumer

groups, and many professional acupuncturists actively want state

registration. If one has state registration that has any meaning, people

will have minimum standards of training. At present, I believe that in the

UK, for oriental acupuncture, the bias is very much towards requiring WHO

recommended standards for acupuncture training, which means making TCM

acupuncture standard. Although I haven't seen the regulation proposals

reached by the BAcC/BMAS etc. regulation working group, I anticipate that

TCM training will be a requirement for the practice of oriental-style (as

opposed to 'medical acupuncture') acupuncture. This is where the Council for

Complemantary and Alternative Medicine regulation proposal may have an

advantage - it allows for the possibility of more tailored regulation for

specific systems, that could be applied to 'Japanese-style' acupuncture. It

might be necessary for people who do Japanese-style' acupuncture to discuss

amongst themselves whether they can develop common-core training

requirements; alternatively, perhpas it would be possible for one or more of

the

larger styles of Japanese acupuncture to become explicitly regulated.

 

Basically, unless this issue is thought about carefully before state

regulation is enacted in the UK, there is a danger that very restricted

styles of acupuncture will be imposed, ones that don't reflect the diversity

and richness of practice that exists internationally.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Wainwright Churchill

 

 

-

" " <>

<Chinese Medicine >

Sunday, September 07, 2003 9:41 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Hello everyone,

 

Perhaps, we should be aware that there is no such thing as Japanese

acupuncture, that is a western term

by which I suspect people mean meridian therapy. The emphasis is on the

condition of qi in the meridians rather than on organ, zang-fu pathologies.

 

There is a pluralistic abundance of acupuncture styles in Japan...from

scientific both Newtonian and quantum approaches, through to family

traditions and newer schools that broke in the 1930's from the westernised

practice of needling nerve roots back to the study of the Han classics, as

well as oral traditions passed down over centuries and also TCM style formal

schools.

 

The basis of many styles have their roots in the Han classics. Students

seek traineeships or apprenticeships after formally finishing AP school.

 

Finally there are three State licenses, one for acupuncture, one for massage

and one for herbs.

 

Ironically these licences where actually put in place by the American

General Macarthur, after

WWII, when there was an attempt to totally crush AP and leave it legally to

the hands of western

trained physicians.

 

A good description of the deepth and variety of study and practice of

Japanese acup can be found in Birch and Ida's book, Japanese Acupuncture.

 

Regards

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Sharon

 

As stated in the past in a basic comparison....if acupuncture clinica

l/didactic education and experience is for discussion ...let us say....at a

college

level then materia medica is at kindergarden level. That is not to say there are

not well qualified herbal practitioners. Just that there aren't too many of

them.

 

As my dear friend and mentor Dr. Wu, Boping has stated to me many

times......that someday when the approximate 2,000 books in ancient chinese some

day get

translated we will know much more about chinese medicine than what is believed

to be known today.

 

Also - something to again take note of.....that in china today there are

varying percentages of what is chinese medicine and what is western medicine.

Some

would say that ONLY 20% is chinese medicine and out of that 20%.......only 5%

is the use of acupuncture needles. That is not to say that needle usage is

not a fine healing art....but again as has been said in the past.....needles

have their time and place and percentage of effectiveness. Add to that the

political nature of how allopaths controlled acupuncture needle usage from

basically

day-one around 1971 (+/-) when the FDA locked down and forbade acupuncture

needle usage as a Class III investigation 'medical' device. From that beginning

control the schools emerged with of course other influences but primarily

teaching initially ONLY the use of needles.

 

As you know.....besides my basic herbal education (standard 450 hours), I

additionally spent years of apprenticeship under Wu, Boping and still do. No

matter where he is in the world.....we constantly communicate on issues of

chinese

medicine.....yet at the same time I chose no to use needles and instead

deeply developed as described in the past a synergized version of both Gua Sha

(frictional scraping) & Ba Guan (empty cupping). What I can do with this methid

now called BaGuaFa boggles the mind ....never needing a needle or an herb. But I

of course do use herbs in conjunction.

 

Today the herbal education as part of the tcm programs has brought the

practitioners to using both needles and herbs. The practice is moving from where

it

was stymied before....and that is not to say that there aren't great

acupuncturists who ONLY use needles.

 

I think though that a greater truth is that needles for the mass of

practitioners is but one tool in the potential armamentorium. There will always

be a

bell curve.

 

The argument seems to be lacking when the practitioner/teacher has a broad

and at the same time a deep understanding and clinical experience.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

> Hi Richard,

> As you know, I don't dispense patent Chinese herbs let alone raw herbs, and

> felt totally inadequate after my 2 semesters of rotate studying Chinese herbs

> at under graduate level. Funny enough I have a naturopath down the road,

> who is a growing friend; she is being more armoured with all things energetic

> as I slowly become armoured by herbs.

>

> So I am curious to know how others feel about it all. I have noted that the

> Japanese trained (either Japanese or non Japanese) AP teachers lack that

> argument found between CM herbalists and CM acupuncturist about what can be

> treated by herbs or AP. This debate does not exist, as far as I can tell.

That

> may just be my lack of awareness or it may be a side benefit of separate

> licenses.

>

> These teachers make the most incredible treatments and never dispense herbs.

> It seems that it is mostly standard for acupuncturist to also dispense

> patent herbs amongst the more recent ap graduates.

>

> Regards

> Sharon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Richard,

As you know, I don't dispense patent Chinese herbs let alone raw herbs, and felt

totally inadequate after my 2 semesters of rotate studying Chinese herbs at

under graduate level. Funny enough I have a naturopath down the road, who is a

growing friend; she is being more armoured with all things energetic as I slowly

become armoured by herbs.

 

So I am curious to know how others feel about it all. I have noted that the

Japanese trained (either Japanese or non Japanese) AP teachers lack that

argument found between CM herbalists and CM acupuncturist about what can be

treated by herbs or AP. This debate does not exist, as far as I can tell. That

may just be my lack of awareness or it may be a side benefit of separate

licenses.

 

These teachers make the most incredible treatments and never dispense herbs. It

seems that it is mostly standard for acupuncturist to also dispense patent herbs

amongst the more recent ap graduates.

 

Regards

Sharon

-

acudoc11

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 08, 2003 2:43 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Sharon

 

In california....Dr. John Chen travels around the US.....he was first trained

as a pharmacist and was working over the counter dispensing drugs but also in

drug manufacturing - then went to study TCM herbal medicine with his father

if I remember the sequence correctly. Now he lectures on TCM herbal medicine.

He is not as traditional as his father but adds a tremendous benefit of

perspective to the profession. Yet I don't believe that it is necessary for

one to

have both to be a good herbalist. It doesn;t hurt. Then again the political

climate might dictate something different in different areas of the world.

 

> Hi Robert,

> Yes that is true about the herbal license.

>

> Do you think that being a pharmacist as well as a herbalist is a good idea?

>

> Regards

> Sharon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Wainwright,

 

Yes there is a tendency in the west to homogenise into one, the different

'truths' be that AP or any science/art.

 

I agree that there is the time frame and teaching style to attain the basic

minimum of skill competency in acupuncture. It would, imo, be fantastic to

study the best practitioners in the world and to then, from their work define

and distil the basic skills and competencies.

 

Then to teach these same sets of skill as the most basic before allowing a

person to practice. This is like studying any skill and then teaching the same

basics to new recruits. I just think we should accredit and teach from best

practice. I don't think this takes 4 yrs as an undergraduate to achieve.

 

To become good as a practitioner is probably a life times work, the refinement

stopping only when one stops the practice. After 9 years of practice, I think I

have only enough to appreciate some of the enormity of the work at hand. I hope

in another 31+ years to say that I was getting quite good at my work. That is

not to say that I don't do good work, it just means that I will better

understand what is the more direct route to my best practice.

 

I experienced what you are proposing about standards. After the first 6mths of

TCM college, my college achieved Federal govt accreditation. This meant that I

could get financial support as a student, like any other student at regular

university. The focus of my school was external to get accreditation. This

imo, had little to do with teaching excellence and competency standards.

 

It meant they could charge more and attract more students because they were

accredited. They were accredited because they had gone through the hops, not

because they were good. Graduation from this school guarantees entrance into the

largest AP association, with other non-accredited graduates required to

undertake written and practical exams.

 

One teacher, and this was prior to my attendance, had taught her class this,

" Here is the Yellow Book, on this you will be examined, you must study this in

your own time. Now I will teach you what you really need to know to be a

practitioner " . At college some hated her and others adored her. Although she

was not my teacher, I had the privilege to attend a number of her seminars

since.

 

Now legislation has come in, in the state of Victoria, as I understand it, it

means you can no longer claim to be an acupuncturist if you have not done an

accredited course OR if you are not first a doctor, physio, vet etc.

 

These are the very people Vanessa and others are concerned about as doing short

courses and giving AP bad press when it does not work. So legislation is not

necessarily going to give acupuncturist what they think.

 

As far as acup standard goes, let me be quite controversial in saying, why don't

we throw out the TCM standard curriculum and study the Han classics. We could

look at them via the various interpretations that have given rise to so many

'schools' of practice. There is time based AP, (very good for jet lag amongst

other more historical disharmonies), there is the blood letting school, there

are speciality schools, ie gyne, children's ap etc, there is tonify the yang

schools, there is tonify the yin schools, there are schools based solely on

master practitioners traditions, there are a number of 5 phase schools, there

are numerous pulse schools as well as numerous abdominal diagnosis schools,

there is the focus on the zang fu school there is focus on the meridians school,

treat the symptom school, use of moxa in cold conditions school forbidden in

warm conditions, the use of moxa in warm conditions. The list is quite

extensive and there is more of these schools pre 1600's let alone the more

modern day schools of ear ap, hand ap etc etc etc.

 

Would it be that bad to actually studied the classics within the context of

time, geography, lifestyle and disease prevalence in which they were written

rather than some pre-digested TCM menu?

 

We live at a time when we could actually do this, we can communicate across

continents in a blink of an eye, we can access native speakers of the language

so discussion of the possible meanings could be debated out loud for those who

do not speak or read Oriental languages. We could compare the differences of

treatment effect or preferences by lifestyles and geography. Heck we can even

do bio medical measures like cat scans to see what changes when a single point

is needled, and perhaps even look towards some notions of energetic medicine

being integral to quantum physics.

 

TCM may have been a vehicle to bring some notion, some small portion of OM to

the west in the 1960s/70's, yet let us not forget that information of AP has

been passing and evolving around the globe for centuries, if not millenniums.

Lets start our study back at its roots and then be part of its branches of

evolution peeling off as practitioners at those styles that appeal to us etc.

 

My experience here is that, the non TCM styles are taken up as post grad

studies, not necessarily at an accredited university level. I count myself

lucky to have undertaken the Toyohari training and that I can go to Japan,

Europe or places in Australia or the US and study with the masters/sensi each

summer. I thank Birch that some form or apprenticeship still exists.

 

Good luck with your legislation issues, I think only hindsight will show you

what you have achieved no matter how good is the intention of those informing

the legislation.

 

Regards

Sharon

 

 

-

Wainwright Churchill

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 08, 2003 10:31 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Thanks for your comments, Sharon.

 

I was aware of what you're talking about, when I spoke about regulating

'Japanese acupuncture'. This highlights to an even greater extent the

problems of 'one size fits all' regulation for acupuncture, given that any

profound individual system of acupuncture probably takes several years to

learn. There's the danger that if you require a common-core curriculum for

the training of acupuncturists, for example by requiring a high level of

TCM, this will inhibit the practice of other styles.

 

What's the solution? Well, you could have no regulation at all, the

situation that currently exists in the UK, but the government, consumer

groups, and many professional acupuncturists actively want state

registration. If one has state registration that has any meaning, people

will have minimum standards of training. At present, I believe that in the

UK, for oriental acupuncture, the bias is very much towards requiring WHO

recommended standards for acupuncture training, which means making TCM

acupuncture standard. Although I haven't seen the regulation proposals

reached by the BAcC/BMAS etc. regulation working group, I anticipate that

TCM training will be a requirement for the practice of oriental-style (as

opposed to 'medical acupuncture') acupuncture. This is where the Council for

Complemantary and Alternative Medicine regulation proposal may have an

advantage - it allows for the possibility of more tailored regulation for

specific systems, that could be applied to 'Japanese-style' acupuncture. It

might be necessary for people who do Japanese-style' acupuncture to discuss

amongst themselves whether they can develop common-core training

requirements; alternatively, perhpas it would be possible for one or more of

the

larger styles of Japanese acupuncture to become explicitly regulated.

 

Basically, unless this issue is thought about carefully before state

regulation is enacted in the UK, there is a danger that very restricted

styles of acupuncture will be imposed, ones that don't reflect the diversity

and richness of practice that exists internationally.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Wainwright Churchill

 

 

-

" " <>

<Chinese Medicine >

Sunday, September 07, 2003 9:41 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Hello everyone,

 

Perhaps, we should be aware that there is no such thing as Japanese

acupuncture, that is a western term

by which I suspect people mean meridian therapy. The emphasis is on the

condition of qi in the meridians rather than on organ, zang-fu pathologies.

 

There is a pluralistic abundance of acupuncture styles in Japan...from

scientific both Newtonian and quantum approaches, through to family

traditions and newer schools that broke in the 1930's from the westernised

practice of needling nerve roots back to the study of the Han classics, as

well as oral traditions passed down over centuries and also TCM style formal

schools.

 

The basis of many styles have their roots in the Han classics. Students

seek traineeships or apprenticeships after formally finishing AP school.

 

Finally there are three State licenses, one for acupuncture, one for massage

and one for herbs.

 

Ironically these licences where actually put in place by the American

General Macarthur, after

WWII, when there was an attempt to totally crush AP and leave it legally to

the hands of western

trained physicians.

 

A good description of the deepth and variety of study and practice of

Japanese acup can be found in Birch and Ida's book, Japanese Acupuncture.

 

Regards

Sharon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sharon

 

Now consider what GuaSha/BaGuan can do when and if one needs to go beyond

teshin.

 

The qi level, intention level, and the like.....would be more considered yang

treatment. But when it comes to a necessary (more often than not) the yin

treatment.......there is nothing better than BaGuaFa. Needles or herbs or moxa

or

whatever can NOT move the yin stagnation as well. Help? Sure. But not as

effective.

 

The old cliche...to a hammer everything looks like a nail. Therefore I have

been able to do with BaGuaFa what another cannot....in part because I have been

doing it so many years. Each to his/her own.

 

Yes......those APs who use only needles are working in the yang or qi aspect

of the meridians...for sure.

 

Helms barely scratches the surface.....yet it is true.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

>

> Hi Richard,

> There are so many tools in the AP/Moxa/Herb/Cupping tool box. Many are

> still hidden as you mentioned about the 2,000 titles untranslated.

>

> As far as the CM herbs go, I never got out of the kindergarden level, so I

> don't even attempt to practice them.

>

> It struck me though to find master Ap practitioners who have never used

> herbs who regularly treat anything and everything. I suspect this is part of

> the approach of treating the qi in the meridians.

>

> I now find that in some of my treatments I don't actually insert a needle at

> all, yet I do contact needling with a teshin, which I find helps to focus

> the qi. I do recall thinking at the introduction day to contact needling,

> 'Yeah right, I'm going to touch the px with a needle and move qi... " I mean

> intention is one thing.... and yet here I find myself, rarely inserting a

needle.

>

> Px's just keep on teaching us; I had a woman in who had been inappropriately

> touched by a massage therapist in her opinion. So I did the contact

> needling through her clothes, and it worked. So I tried using Helm's protocol

for

> clearing the tendino muscular meridians, using a teshin on the gathering pts

> and on the relevant ting pts and surrounding the lesion (sight of pain). It

> worked. There is so much more to AP than I could have ever imagined.

> Cheers

> Sharon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Richard,

There are so many tools in the AP/Moxa/Herb/Cupping tool box. Many are still

hidden as you mentioned about the 2,000 titles untranslated.

 

As far as the CM herbs go, I never got out of the kindergarden level, so I don't

even attempt to practice them.

 

It struck me though to find master Ap practitioners who have never used herbs

who regularly treat anything and everything. I suspect this is part of the

approach of treating the qi in the meridians.

 

I now find that in some of my treatments I don't actually insert a needle at

all, yet I do contact needling with a teshin, which I find helps to focus the

qi. I do recall thinking at the introduction day to contact needling, 'Yeah

right, I'm going to touch the px with a needle and move qi... " I mean intention

is one thing.... and yet here I find myself, rarely inserting a needle.

 

Px's just keep on teaching us; I had a woman in who had been inappropriately

touched by a massage therapist in her opinion. So I did the contact needling

through her clothes, and it worked. So I tried using Helm's protocol for

clearing the tendino muscular meridians, using a teshin on the gathering pts and

on the relevant ting pts and surrounding the lesion (sight of pain). It worked.

There is so much more to AP than I could have ever imagined.

Cheers

Sharon

-

acudoc11

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:48 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Sharon

 

As stated in the past in a basic comparison....if acupuncture clinica

l/didactic education and experience is for discussion ...let us say....at a

college

level then materia medica is at kindergarden level. That is not to say there

are

not well qualified herbal practitioners. Just that there aren't too many of

them.

 

As my dear friend and mentor Dr. Wu, Boping has stated to me many

times......that someday when the approximate 2,000 books in ancient chinese

some day get

translated we will know much more about chinese medicine than what is believed

to be known today.

 

Also - something to again take note of.....that in china today there are

varying percentages of what is chinese medicine and what is western medicine.

Some

would say that ONLY 20% is chinese medicine and out of that 20%.......only 5%

is the use of acupuncture needles. That is not to say that needle usage is

not a fine healing art....but again as has been said in the past.....needles

have their time and place and percentage of effectiveness. Add to that the

political nature of how allopaths controlled acupuncture needle usage from

basically

day-one around 1971 (+/-) when the FDA locked down and forbade acupuncture

needle usage as a Class III investigation 'medical' device. From that

beginning

control the schools emerged with of course other influences but primarily

teaching initially ONLY the use of needles.

 

As you know.....besides my basic herbal education (standard 450 hours), I

additionally spent years of apprenticeship under Wu, Boping and still do. No

matter where he is in the world.....we constantly communicate on issues of

chinese

medicine.....yet at the same time I chose no to use needles and instead

deeply developed as described in the past a synergized version of both Gua Sha

(frictional scraping) & Ba Guan (empty cupping). What I can do with this

methid

now called BaGuaFa boggles the mind ....never needing a needle or an herb. But

I

of course do use herbs in conjunction.

 

Today the herbal education as part of the tcm programs has brought the

practitioners to using both needles and herbs. The practice is moving from

where it

was stymied before....and that is not to say that there aren't great

acupuncturists who ONLY use needles.

 

I think though that a greater truth is that needles for the mass of

practitioners is but one tool in the potential armamentorium. There will

always be a

bell curve.

 

The argument seems to be lacking when the practitioner/teacher has a broad

and at the same time a deep understanding and clinical experience.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

> Hi Richard,

> As you know, I don't dispense patent Chinese herbs let alone raw herbs, and

> felt totally inadequate after my 2 semesters of rotate studying Chinese

herbs

> at under graduate level. Funny enough I have a naturopath down the road,

> who is a growing friend; she is being more armoured with all things

energetic

> as I slowly become armoured by herbs.

>

> So I am curious to know how others feel about it all. I have noted that the

> Japanese trained (either Japanese or non Japanese) AP teachers lack that

> argument found between CM herbalists and CM acupuncturist about what can be

> treated by herbs or AP. This debate does not exist, as far as I can tell.

That

> may just be my lack of awareness or it may be a side benefit of separate

> licenses.

>

> These teachers make the most incredible treatments and never dispense herbs.

> It seems that it is mostly standard for acupuncturist to also dispense

> patent herbs amongst the more recent ap graduates.

>

> Regards

> Sharon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon

 

One can also do gua-sha and cupping -either or both combined with

bloodletting but i prefer to stay clear of moving blood out of the body. When I

wish to

do that I use seven star hammer.

 

By the way.....when blood is meant to seep through the skin - some of it

does. When it is so close and stagnated to the surface it happens by itself.

 

Ahh, yes...qi level, yin level, blood level....which one. In the case with

BaGuaFa....the technique is so-to-speak through the hands & eyes. The only way i

can describe how....is by telling you that it is by feel and sight in a

biofeedback way. As I begin.....with Gua Sha (qi sha level to first investigate

which is diagnostic) the patient's body tells me by tissue responses etc where

to

go and how to go.

 

Please explain what you mean as to your considered debate as to what is at qi

or yin level?

 

People who think that acupuncture is primarily about neuropathways are

missing the full expansion of the human body. Some (names deleted) go into this

scenario of trigger points and dry needle techinique which is reductionism and

plagerism in the sense that it is not the WHOLE mechanism. It is but ONE small

facet of Chinese medicine/acupuncture. They stole it from the chinese and claim

it to be something extra special belonging to only MEDICAL DOCTORS. What

arrogance. BaGuaFa can blow those techniques away and it therefore proves that

not

only do they know very little but the real root is in chinese medicine.

 

One of the chiropractors in the US has been selling his wares for weekend

warrior classes. Yet at the same time he has sold some carving reproductions

from

the chinese on turtle shells which proved that chiropractic existed in china

a long time before palmer supposedly discovered it.

 

Richard

 

 

 

> Hi Richard,

> It is interesting that in the Toyohari (TH) style, they also do quite a bit

> of blood letting. Their needling techniques include both insertion and

> non-insertion and there are specific needle techniques (some are the same if

> inserted or not) for clearing pathogenic qi, at qi and at blood levels,

including

> removal of cold stagnation.

>

> I am still such a novice at TH that I can hardly debate if it is only at the

> qi level and and not the yin level.

>

> What do you mean by Helms only scratches the surface? and what is true?

>

> I still can't get my mind around his (Helms's) I Ching trigram concept....

> Sharon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Richard,

It is interesting that in the Toyohari (TH) style, they also do quite a bit of

blood letting. Their needling techniques include both insertion and

non-insertion and there are specific needle techniques (some are the same if

inserted or not) for clearing pathogenic qi, at qi and at blood levels,

including removal of cold stagnation.

 

I am still such a novice at TH that I can hardly debate if it is only at the qi

level and and not the yin level.

 

What do you mean by Helms only scratches the surface? and what is true?

 

I still can't get my mind around his (Helms's) I Ching trigram concept....

Sharon

-

acudoc11

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 4:40 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Sharon

 

Now consider what GuaSha/BaGuan can do when and if one needs to go beyond

teshin.

 

The qi level, intention level, and the like.....would be more considered yang

treatment. But when it comes to a necessary (more often than not) the yin

treatment.......there is nothing better than BaGuaFa. Needles or herbs or moxa

or

whatever can NOT move the yin stagnation as well. Help? Sure. But not as

effective.

 

The old cliche...to a hammer everything looks like a nail. Therefore I have

been able to do with BaGuaFa what another cannot....in part because I have

been

doing it so many years. Each to his/her own.

 

Yes......those APs who use only needles are working in the yang or qi aspect

of the meridians...for sure.

 

Helms barely scratches the surface.....yet it is true.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

>

> Hi Richard,

> There are so many tools in the AP/Moxa/Herb/Cupping tool box. Many are

> still hidden as you mentioned about the 2,000 titles untranslated.

>

> As far as the CM herbs go, I never got out of the kindergarden level, so I

> don't even attempt to practice them.

>

> It struck me though to find master Ap practitioners who have never used

> herbs who regularly treat anything and everything. I suspect this is part

of

> the approach of treating the qi in the meridians.

>

> I now find that in some of my treatments I don't actually insert a needle at

> all, yet I do contact needling with a teshin, which I find helps to focus

> the qi. I do recall thinking at the introduction day to contact needling,

> 'Yeah right, I'm going to touch the px with a needle and move qi... " I mean

> intention is one thing.... and yet here I find myself, rarely inserting a

needle.

>

> Px's just keep on teaching us; I had a woman in who had been inappropriately

> touched by a massage therapist in her opinion. So I did the contact

> needling through her clothes, and it worked. So I tried using Helm's

protocol for

> clearing the tendino muscular meridians, using a teshin on the gathering pts

> and on the relevant ting pts and surrounding the lesion (sight of pain). It

> worked. There is so much more to AP than I could have ever imagined.

> Cheers

> Sharon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Richard,

In Manaka style, one has to break up the 'gummy' feel especially around the

sacrum and ASIS. Interesting, I suspect that this is along similiar lines to

what you are describing.

 

TH tend to do micro bleeding of spider veins, + or - cupping depending on px

strength etc. The also do small cuts and cup these, for quite specific

complaints, eg hot flushes. There are two practitioners who I think do almost

nothing but bleeding and have published their work.

 

Re debate; you said Yes......those APs who use only needles are working in the

yang or qi aspect

of the meridians...for sure.

My comment was that I couldn't debate if this was or was not so with TH style as

I am still a novice.

Sharon

-

acudoc11

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, September 10, 2003 1:58 PM

Re: Regulation in the UK - competing proposals

 

 

Hi Sharon

 

One can also do gua-sha and cupping -either or both combined with

bloodletting but i prefer to stay clear of moving blood out of the body. When

I wish to

do that I use seven star hammer.

 

By the way.....when blood is meant to seep through the skin - some of it

does. When it is so close and stagnated to the surface it happens by itself.

 

Ahh, yes...qi level, yin level, blood level....which one. In the case with

BaGuaFa....the technique is so-to-speak through the hands & eyes. The only way

i

can describe how....is by telling you that it is by feel and sight in a

biofeedback way. As I begin.....with Gua Sha (qi sha level to first

investigate

which is diagnostic) the patient's body tells me by tissue responses etc where

to

go and how to go.

 

Please explain what you mean as to your considered debate as to what is at qi

or yin level?

 

People who think that acupuncture is primarily about neuropathways are

missing the full expansion of the human body. Some (names deleted) go into

this

scenario of trigger points and dry needle techinique which is reductionism and

plagerism in the sense that it is not the WHOLE mechanism. It is but ONE small

facet of Chinese medicine/acupuncture. They stole it from the chinese and

claim

it to be something extra special belonging to only MEDICAL DOCTORS. What

arrogance. BaGuaFa can blow those techniques away and it therefore proves that

not

only do they know very little but the real root is in chinese medicine.

 

One of the chiropractors in the US has been selling his wares for weekend

warrior classes. Yet at the same time he has sold some carving reproductions

from

the chinese on turtle shells which proved that chiropractic existed in china

a long time before palmer supposedly discovered it.

 

Richard

 

 

 

> Hi Richard,

> It is interesting that in the Toyohari (TH) style, they also do quite a bit

> of blood letting. Their needling techniques include both insertion and

> non-insertion and there are specific needle techniques (some are the same if

> inserted or not) for clearing pathogenic qi, at qi and at blood levels,

including

> removal of cold stagnation.

>

> I am still such a novice at TH that I can hardly debate if it is only at the

> qi level and and not the yin level.

>

> What do you mean by Helms only scratches the surface? and what is true?

>

> I still can't get my mind around his (Helms's) I Ching trigram concept....

> Sharon