Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: Fear of iatrogenics is part of a generalized fear of science and technology that stimuates interest in traditional and natural medicines. Paul Unschuld's article, " Nature versus Chemistry and Technology, " offers an excellent discussion: http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/paradigm/refs/unschuld/chmena.pdf Attilio: I was quite shocked when i read the above article by Paul Unschuld. Firstly, he state that " there is no such thing as the Chinese medicine " . Secodly, he states the historical nature of acupuncture, " Chinese medicine denotes almost exclusively acupuncture, a method of treatment with only a second- or third-ranking significance in China that was characterized as forgotten tradition by writers of the eighteenth century and by a decree of 1822 was considered unsuitable for use among the upper classes. Acupuncture only experiences a belated respect today because of the regard it is given in the West " . Thirdly, states that " Chinese medicine is not preferred by a segment of the population because it is more effective than Western medicine (that is definitely not the case), but because the ideas behind it respond to the needs of the sector concerned and promise relief " . And finishes with " To conclude, it is important to recognize that the problem of the adoption of Chinese medicine will not be solved by encouraging scientific confirmation of the individual concepts or therapeutic interventions of Chinese medicine. The increasing acceptance of Chinese medicine is a question of people's outlook on the world that will not disappear until the existential anxieties and fears have dissolved, or until the feeling arises that science and technology [WM] takes these anxieties and fears seriously [i.e. simply listens to the patient's lonely complaints]. Well, he's definitely off my Christmas card list! Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Hi Attilio, I wanted to commend you first for noting the short comings of Atkin's diet. Even the modified version. Short term benefits of that diet exist for reducing refined carbohydrate load, but it is not appropriate to replace the refined carbohydrates with meat and fat. Refined carbohydrates should be replaced by complex carbohydrates from leafy vegetables, mushrooms, less starchy roots like carrots. Meat eating animals have short G.I. lengths, and humans have pretty long guts more suitable to metabolizing well cooked soups of vegetables with only moderate amounts of meat. Clinical nutrition teaches us to err on the side of simplicity, i.e. what do you add to your clear broth. Reduce fat to less than 30% of calories, reduce saturated fat as much as possible, reduce meat to less than 15% of calories. I teach nutrition and have been it's student since the 1960s. My graduate work is clinical nutrition at Univ. Texas and San Francisco State. There's only been refinements in protocols since the 60s. Such refinements lead us to know more about the effects of insulin spikes in people with insulin resistance and so on. 's earlier post was, in my opinion a very balanced reply. Regarding Unschuld, check with Ken Rose when he comes back on line. Unschuld is not saying there is no Chinese medicine. He's saying there is not one single unified Chinese medicine. CM literature initially arises out of a huge array of oral traditions. If you look at indigenous medicines, practically every valley has it's own variation of medicine ... sort of like variations of linguistic dialects. My own great grandmother was a practitioner of an oral tradition medicine of eastern Macedonia based on plants unique to a few areas of forest and meadow. She was quite successful as a practitioner but was not following any sort of historical literature. She might have had a hard time practicing if she had moved very far away. Unschuld is pointing out the wide variety of ways in which CM may vary regionally and through time. Marne Ergil and other translators bring this point up over and over in their posts on CHA. They note many contradictions through time and regions. Sorting through all this may give rise to some insight into how to treat people of your own time and your own region. In gratitude for your efforts, Attilio, Emmanuel Segmen - Chinese Medicine Friday, September 05, 2003 8:51 AM Unschuld's speech " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: Fear of iatrogenics is part of a generalized fear of science and technology that stimuates interest in traditional and natural medicines. Paul Unschuld's article, " Nature versus Chemistry and Technology, " offers an excellent discussion: http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/paradigm/refs/unschuld/chmena.pdf Attilio: I was quite shocked when i read the above article by Paul Unschuld. Firstly, he state that " there is no such thing as the Chinese medicine " . Secodly, he states the historical nature of acupuncture, " Chinese medicine denotes almost exclusively acupuncture, a method of treatment with only a second- or third-ranking significance in China that was characterized as forgotten tradition by writers of the eighteenth century and by a decree of 1822 was considered unsuitable for use among the upper classes. Acupuncture only experiences a belated respect today because of the regard it is given in the West " . Thirdly, states that " Chinese medicine is not preferred by a segment of the population because it is more effective than Western medicine (that is definitely not the case), but because the ideas behind it respond to the needs of the sector concerned and promise relief " . And finishes with " To conclude, it is important to recognize that the problem of the adoption of Chinese medicine will not be solved by encouraging scientific confirmation of the individual concepts or therapeutic interventions of Chinese medicine. The increasing acceptance of Chinese medicine is a question of people's outlook on the world that will not disappear until the existential anxieties and fears have dissolved, or until the feeling arises that science and technology [WM] takes these anxieties and fears seriously [i.e. simply listens to the patient's lonely complaints]. Well, he's definitely off my Christmas card list! Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: Regarding Unschuld, check with Ken Rose when he comes back on line. Unschuld is not saying there is no Chinese medicine. He's saying there is not one single unified Chinese medicine. CM literature initially arises out of a huge array of oral traditions. If you look at indigenous medicines, practically every valley has it's own variation of medicine ... sort of like variations of linguistic dialects. My own great grandmother was a practitioner of an oral tradition medicine of eastern Macedonia based on plants unique to a few areas of forest and meadow. She was quite successful as a practitioner but was not following any sort of historical literature. She might have had a hard time practicing if she had moved very far away. Unschuld is pointing out the wide variety of ways in which CM may vary regionally and through time. Marne Ergil and other translators bring this point up over and over in their posts on CHA. They note many contradictions through time and regions. Sorting through all this may give rise to some insight into how to treat people of your own time and your own region. Attilio: Thank you Emmanuel for your kind comments. Yes i see what your saying, but if this is the case, the orthodox medicine is to a lesser extent WM as it spands over a wider range of countries and religions, although clearly ignores them all. I felt Unschuld's speech to be very bias towards WM and clearly unbalanced. I was quite shocked at this, as i expected more from such a scholar, but then we're all human and all have our own biased ideas. Attilio P.S. Did your grandmother pass down the oral traditions of the Macedonia forest and meadow to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 I don't agree that Unschuld's essay/speech was biased towards WM. He's arguing that the recent acceptance of traditional medicine in the west is motivated by a philosophical disenchantment with the way The Age of Reason and the scientific revolution has left us without a deeper spiritual belief system. is embraced, not because it works, but because it is seen to fulfil this existential angst. If he's right, then all the arguments that we need to 'prove, thru research, the efficacy of oriental medicine to society are entirely misplaced. Godfrey. Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Attilio: Thank you Emmanuel for your kind comments. Yes i see what > your saying, but if this is the case, the orthodox medicine is to a > lesser extent WM as it spands over a wider range of countries and > religions, although clearly ignores them all. > > I felt Unschuld's speech to be very bias towards WM and clearly > unbalanced. I was quite shocked at this, as i expected more from > such a scholar, but then we're all human and all have our own biased > ideas. > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Hi Attilio, Remember, his audience for this speech was a group of MDs so he may have shifted the perspective for them. If he gave the speech to practitioners of Chinese medicine, he might have shifted the perspective towards us. I think the theme of the speech was not 'How good is Chinese medicine' or 'How good is Western mediicine.' It was about how many people are turned off by technology and are afraid of pharmaceuticals. Outwardly, many are concerned for the environment. These same people inwardly are concerned for their bodies. He was warning Western doctors that their hi-tech equipment and use of pharmaceuticals are pushing part of the population away from Western medicine and toward medicines such as Chinese medicine. He was saying that even if we had more Western studies proving Chinese medicine effective or not, that the efficacy of Chinese medicine is not the issue. It is the humanity, the natural-ness and low-tech nature of it that attracts many people. Read it again, and see if this isn't the theme. Lorraine --- <attiliodalberto wrote: > I felt Unschuld's speech to be very bias towards WM > and clearly > unbalanced. I was quite shocked at this, as i > expected more from > such a scholar, but then we're all human and all > have our own biased > ideas. ===== Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 HI EVERYONE, WISHE D TO COMMENT ON A FEW ISSUES. 1. UNSCHULD. - HE SEEMS TO BE SAYING WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR CENTURIES. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TREATING WITH FOLK REMEDIES WHICH ARE NATIVE TO THEIR LAND & UPBRINGING & THEYA RE FAMILIAR WITH. THIS WAS HOME REMEDIES. THIS IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH A MODALITY OF TREATMENT. TODAY WE HAVE LOST THE ART OF HOME REMEDIES due to travel, packaging, etc. todays home remedies are the pill from the chemist. so the older remedies seem to be great even though theya re not the final solution in education. we are learning them & the older people think its rubbish because they used to dish it out themselves. they expected the doctor to do more. we as natural therapists are now picking up things left behind by the population & claim great victories. we need to do that but not crow about it unless we can add all of them up & claim cure to some conditions as a routine & not ahit & miss. the other issue if we must be able to do this with the basis of our knowledge which is not easy for others to pick up. presently we seem to be making it asy for other to pick up without learning too much. 2. the other bit what unschuld is saying is the fact that the basic human need is not technology, not fancy tests, not fancy coated pills which may d something. WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THAT THE BASIC HUMAN CONTACT IN SPENDING TIME WITH PEOPLE , CARING FOR THEM, NURTUTRING THEM EMOTIONALLY & SPIRITUALLY, is the need which was fulfilled in the days of yore & today is being lost & pts are looking for that. this is the area that we are finding the results as well. so it may be all adding up. maybe we should take aleaf out of his work & follow the lead. 3.regarding diets - what is your opinion about the food qualities of different items like cabbage, potato, leek etc. the CM claims they are categorised as cold, cool, warm, hot foods. have you found any corelation between the WM approach to diet & the CM qualities of food. this would make interesting reading if there is acorelation & some work has been done. thanks anand --- Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > I wanted to commend you first for noting the short > comings of Atkin's diet. Even the modified version. > Short term benefits of that diet exist for reducing > refined carbohydrate load, but it is not appropriate > to replace the refined carbohydrates with meat and > fat. Refined carbohydrates should be replaced by > complex carbohydrates from leafy vegetables, > mushrooms, less starchy roots like carrots. Meat > eating animals have short G.I. lengths, and humans > have pretty long guts more suitable to metabolizing > well cooked soups of vegetables with only moderate > amounts of meat. Clinical nutrition teaches us to > err on the side of simplicity, i.e. what do you add > to your clear broth. Reduce fat to less than 30% of > calories, reduce saturated fat as much as possible, > reduce meat to less than 15% of calories. I teach > nutrition and have been it's student since the > 1960s. My graduate work is clinical nutrition at > Univ. Texas and San Francisco State. There's only > been refinements in protocols since the 60s. Such > refinements lead us to know more about the effects > of insulin spikes in people with insulin resistance > and so on. 's earlier post was, in my > opinion a very balanced reply. > > Regarding Unschuld, check with Ken Rose when he > comes back on line. Unschuld is not saying there is > no Chinese medicine. He's saying there is not one > single unified Chinese medicine. CM literature > initially arises out of a huge array of oral > traditions. If you look at indigenous medicines, > practically every valley has it's own variation of > medicine ... sort of like variations of linguistic > dialects. My own great grandmother was a > practitioner of an oral tradition medicine of > eastern Macedonia based on plants unique to a few > areas of forest and meadow. She was quite > successful as a practitioner but was not following > any sort of historical literature. She might have > had a hard time practicing if she had moved very far > away. Unschuld is pointing out the wide variety of > ways in which CM may vary regionally and through > time. Marne Ergil and other translators bring this > point up over and over in their posts on CHA. They > note many contradictions through time and regions. > Sorting through all this may give rise to some > insight into how to treat people of your own time > and your own region. > > In gratitude for your efforts, Attilio, > Emmanuel Segmen > - > > Chinese Medicine > Friday, September 05, 2003 8:51 AM > Unschuld's speech > > > " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: > Fear of iatrogenics is part of a generalized fear > of science and > technology that stimuates interest in traditional > and natural > medicines. Paul Unschuld's article, " Nature > versus Chemistry and > Technology, " offers an excellent discussion: > > > http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/paradigm/refs/unschuld/chmena.pdf > > Attilio: > > I was quite shocked when i read the above article > by Paul Unschuld. > > Firstly, he state that " there is no such thing as > the Chinese medicine " . > > Secodly, he states the historical nature of > acupuncture, " Chinese medicine denotes almost > exclusively acupuncture, a method of treatment with > only a second- or third-ranking significance in > China that was characterized as forgotten tradition > by writers of the eighteenth century and by a decree > of 1822 was considered unsuitable for use among the > upper classes. Acupuncture only experiences a > belated respect today because of the regard it is > given in the West " . > > Thirdly, states that " Chinese medicine is not > preferred by a segment of the population because it > is more effective than Western medicine (that is > definitely not the case), but because the ideas > behind it respond to the needs of the sector > concerned and promise relief " . > > And finishes with " To conclude, it is important to > recognize that the problem of the adoption of > Chinese medicine will not be solved by encouraging > scientific confirmation of the individual concepts > or therapeutic interventions of Chinese medicine. > The increasing > acceptance of Chinese medicine is a question of > people's outlook on the world that will not > disappear until the existential anxieties and fears > have dissolved, or until the feeling arises that > science and technology [WM] takes these anxieties > and fears seriously [i.e. simply listens to the > patient's lonely complaints]. > > Well, he's definitely off my Christmas card list! > > Attilio > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? 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Guest guest Posted September 7, 2003 Report Share Posted September 7, 2003 Attilio: Thank you Emmanuel for your kind comments. Yes i see what your saying, but if this is the case, the orthodox medicine is to a lesser extent WM as it spands over a wider range of countries and religions, although clearly ignores them all. I felt Unschuld's speech to be very bias towards WM and clearly unbalanced. I was quite shocked at this, as i expected more from such a scholar, but then we're all human and all have our own biased ideas. Attilio P.S. Did your grandmother pass down the oral traditions of the Macedonia forest and meadow to you? Then Emmanuel replies: No, I've never met my great grandmother though I have pictures of her taken in 1904 that hang in my living room. She taught my mother to gather herbs, but my mother was put on a Greek ship to America at the age of 15 (in 1919) and couldn't explain much about it when I questioned her. She passed away at 87 years of age and only told me the stories. From hearing about discussions between Unschuld and others, I believe that Unschuld holds all aspects of Chinese medicine in high esteem. However, he tries hard to be an objective investigator. He and Michael Broffman (here near SF) are aware of the recently discovered Silk Route cave literature west of Gansu Province. Apparently an enormous cache of literature has been stored for hundreds of years in a desert cave and has been uncovered in the past decade. Translators indicate a very complete presentation of CM over many centuries. Apparently much literature that famous authors had alluded to are in that cave. It also turns out that those allusions were erroneous and yet had stood the test of time to enter the main literature. You might check with Z'ev on this as he was with me when Michael Broffman spoke with us about it. It's one of those things that must be addressed in order to take the next step in understanding a larger view of Chinese medicine. I'm not at Broffman's nor at Z'ev's level of understanding to represent this. However, you have to separate the vast theoretical literature from the clinically applied techniques. Practitioners have great efficacy with their treatment modalities. While it flows from the theoretical and philosophical origins, empiricism must also play a role in clinical efficacy while we grow in our understanding of the theoretical side. I honestly don't know Unschuld's view of WM, and can't quite discern it from his presentation. I believe Godfrey and Lorraine have made valid points regarding Unschuld's presentation. I again recommend that you tie in with Ken Rose as he, as well as Michael Broffman, both see Unschuld as setting the tone and the pace of how Westerners can manage to obtain a balanced view of such a broad and deep field. If you, Attilio, manage to become a translator and manage to travel in China as Unschuld has, perhaps you would provide yet another perspective based on your philosophical development. I do enjoy your perspectives and presentations. By the way, I'm an oral traditions practitioner of some 28 years now ... ordained some 22 years ago after a rigorous training. I've discovered traces of my own oral traditions in oral traditions of other cultures on other continents. Thus, I have a strong appreciation for the integrity of oral traditions through historical times and through the movement of whole cultures. I'm also aware of how an historical literature may flow out of oral traditions, sometimes only capturing a single snapshot or sometimes an album of snapshots. Do you understand that an oral tradition is a living thing while a literature no matter how vast is not as invested with life? Just a random thought here that I sense you could appreciate. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2003 Report Share Posted September 7, 2003 Hi Emmanuel, Yes, i undersatand that the oral tradition is much more powerful and practical than the literature based one. This is exactly why i'm shocked by Unschuld's speech. Yes, i can see he's directing WM doctors and is leaning their way to give them the important message of their own doom. Hence, he uses phrases to 'bring them in' as it were, get therm in his palm so he can more effectively deliver the real message he wants to convay. But, nevertheless, the comments he makes, which i've already listed, as nothing more than sell-out sentences. And i really don't care, that its because he's trying to protray a greater message to them. He comments have done no favours for TCM, instead coming from a man that seems to back TCM, are a strong 'living' negative attack against TCM. Anyway, getting onto a much more interesting subject, the literature found in the Silk road cave sounds very very interesting. Does Zev have any more info on it? And talking of translations, i hope to do some in the future. My Korean wife also has a degree in Chinese literature and coupled with the Welin software, which should be in my grubby little hands soon, i'll be putting my wife and the software to do use. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Attilio: Thank you Emmanuel for your kind comments. Yes i see what your saying, but if this is the case, the orthodox medicine is to a lesser extent WM as it spands over a wider range of countries and religions, although clearly ignores them all. > > I felt Unschuld's speech to be very bias towards WM and clearly unbalanced. I was quite shocked at this, as i expected more from such a scholar, but then we're all human and all have our own biased ideas. > > Attilio > > P.S. Did your grandmother pass down the oral traditions of the Macedonia forest and meadow to you? > > Then Emmanuel replies: No, I've never met my great grandmother though I have pictures of her taken in 1904 that hang in my living room. She taught my mother to gather herbs, but my mother was put on a Greek ship to America at the age of 15 (in 1919) and couldn't explain much about it when I questioned her. She passed away at 87 years of age and only told me the stories. > > From hearing about discussions between Unschuld and others, I believe that Unschuld holds all aspects of Chinese medicine in high esteem. However, he tries hard to be an objective investigator. He and Michael Broffman (here near SF) are aware of the recently discovered Silk Route cave literature west of Gansu Province. Apparently an enormous cache of literature has been stored for hundreds of years in a desert cave and has been uncovered in the past decade. Translators indicate a very complete presentation of CM over many centuries. Apparently much literature that famous authors had alluded to are in that cave. It also turns out that those allusions were erroneous and yet had stood the test of time to enter the main literature. You might check with Z'ev on this as he was with me when Michael Broffman spoke with us about it. It's one of those things that must be addressed in order to take the next step in understanding a larger view of Chinese medicine. I'm not at Broffman's nor at Z'ev's level of understanding to represent this. However, you have to separate the vast theoretical literature from the clinically applied techniques. Practitioners have great efficacy with their treatment modalities. While it flows from the theoretical and philosophical origins, empiricism must also play a role in clinical efficacy while we grow in our understanding of the theoretical side. I honestly don't know Unschuld's view of WM, and can't quite discern it from his presentation. > > I believe Godfrey and Lorraine have made valid points regarding Unschuld's presentation. I again recommend that you tie in with Ken Rose as he, as well as Michael Broffman, both see Unschuld as setting the tone and the pace of how Westerners can manage to obtain a balanced view of such a broad and deep field. If you, Attilio, manage to become a translator and manage to travel in China as Unschuld has, perhaps you would provide yet another perspective based on your philosophical development. I do enjoy your perspectives and presentations. > > By the way, I'm an oral traditions practitioner of some 28 years now ... ordained some 22 years ago after a rigorous training. I've discovered traces of my own oral traditions in oral traditions of other cultures on other continents. Thus, I have a strong appreciation for the integrity of oral traditions through historical times and through the movement of whole cultures. I'm also aware of how an historical literature may flow out of oral traditions, sometimes only capturing a single snapshot or sometimes an album of snapshots. Do you understand that an oral tradition is a living thing while a literature no matter how vast is not as invested with life? Just a random thought here that I sense you could appreciate. > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2003 Report Share Posted September 7, 2003 Dear All, Having just ploughed through Unschuld's 'Medicine in China', I found his speech an interesting continuation of the themes in his book i.e. how political and social developments have influenced medical thought. Although he doesn't exactly paint a nice happy picture of why Chinese medicine has been so widely accepted here in the West, I don't think he is far off the truth in many respects with how the shortcomings in society have led to favourable conditions for Chinese Medicine to flourish. Looking forward to more... Angelo Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Emmanuel, > > Yes, i undersatand that the oral tradition is much more powerful and > practical than the literature based one. This is exactly why i'm > shocked by Unschuld's speech. > > Yes, i can see he's directing WM doctors and is leaning their way to > give them the important message of their own doom. Hence, he uses > phrases to 'bring them in' as it were, get therm in his palm so he > can more effectively deliver the real message he wants to convay. > But, nevertheless, the comments he makes, which i've already listed, > as nothing more than sell-out sentences. And i really don't care, > that its because he's trying to protray a greater message to them. > > He comments have done no favours for TCM, instead coming from a man > that seems to back TCM, are a strong 'living' negative attack > against TCM. > > Anyway, getting onto a much more interesting subject, the literature > found in the Silk road cave sounds very very interesting. Does Zev > have any more info on it? > > And talking of translations, i hope to do some in the future. My > Korean wife also has a degree in Chinese literature and coupled with > the Welin software, which should be in my grubby little hands soon, > i'll be putting my wife and the software to do use. > > Attilio > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel > Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > > Attilio: Thank you Emmanuel for your kind comments. Yes i see what > your saying, but if this is the case, the orthodox medicine is to a > lesser extent WM as it spands over a wider range of countries and > religions, although clearly ignores them all. > > > > I felt Unschuld's speech to be very bias towards WM and clearly > unbalanced. I was quite shocked at this, as i expected more from > such a scholar, but then we're all human and all have our own biased > ideas. > > > > Attilio > > > > P.S. Did your grandmother pass down the oral traditions of the > Macedonia forest and meadow to you? > > > > Then Emmanuel replies: No, I've never met my great grandmother > though I have pictures of her taken in 1904 that hang in my living > room. She taught my mother to gather herbs, but my mother was put > on a Greek ship to America at the age of 15 (in 1919) and couldn't > explain much about it when I questioned her. She passed away at 87 > years of age and only told me the stories. > > > > From hearing about discussions between Unschuld and others, I > believe that Unschuld holds all aspects of Chinese medicine in high > esteem. However, he tries hard to be an objective investigator. He > and Michael Broffman (here near SF) are aware of the recently > discovered Silk Route cave literature west of Gansu Province. > Apparently an enormous cache of literature has been stored for > hundreds of years in a desert cave and has been uncovered in the > past decade. Translators indicate a very complete presentation of > CM over many centuries. Apparently much literature that famous > authors had alluded to are in that cave. It also turns out that > those allusions were erroneous and yet had stood the test of time to > enter the main literature. You might check with Z'ev on this as he > was with me when Michael Broffman spoke with us about it. It's one > of those things that must be addressed in order to take the next > step in understanding a larger view of Chinese medicine. I'm not at > Broffman's nor at Z'ev's level of understanding to represent this. > However, you have to separate the vast theoretical literature from > the clinically applied techniques. Practitioners have great > efficacy with their treatment modalities. While it flows from the > theoretical and philosophical origins, empiricism must also play a > role in clinical efficacy while we grow in our understanding of the > theoretical side. I honestly don't know Unschuld's view of WM, and > can't quite discern it from his presentation. > > > > I believe Godfrey and Lorraine have made valid points regarding > Unschuld's presentation. I again recommend that you tie in with Ken > Rose as he, as well as Michael Broffman, both see Unschuld as > setting the tone and the pace of how Westerners can manage to obtain > a balanced view of such a broad and deep field. If you, Attilio, > manage to become a translator and manage to travel in China as > Unschuld has, perhaps you would provide yet another perspective > based on your philosophical development. I do enjoy your > perspectives and presentations. > > > > By the way, I'm an oral traditions practitioner of some 28 years > now ... ordained some 22 years ago after a rigorous training. I've > discovered traces of my own oral traditions in oral traditions of > other cultures on other continents. Thus, I have a strong > appreciation for the integrity of oral traditions through historical > times and through the movement of whole cultures. I'm also aware of > how an historical literature may flow out of oral traditions, > sometimes only capturing a single snapshot or sometimes an album of > snapshots. Do you understand that an oral tradition is a living > thing while a literature no matter how vast is not as invested with > life? Just a random thought here that I sense you could > appreciate. > > > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Attilio, I wanted to address a few issues and concerns you had. 1) Paul Unschuld is a man I know and consider to be a compassionate, clear-headed individual who truly cares about his work and clarity of understanding of Chinese medicine. Having read the " and Technology " article several years ago, my understanding was not that it was " anti-TCM " . I felt he was simply trying to point out the attraction of the elements of Chinese medicine that appealed to the 'Green Party' environmentalist mentality, which was a legitimate reaction to the appalling destruction to Europe by war and industrialization. This was reflected in the development of biomedicine, which, after all, largely developed in Germany during and after WW I. He makes the points that Chinese medicine is much more than just an 'anti- technological' medicine, and that Chinese culture is hardly immune from environmental sins over the millenia. There are aspects of Chinese medicine that embrace technology wholeheartedly, and aspects that are allopathic and iatrogenic as well. Finally, we often superimpose our limited conceptions and biases onto Chinese medicine itself. This is not what I would call " anti-TCM " . It is anti-polemical. 2) As far as the Dunhuang manuscripts go, I can only give you second-hand information. Michael Broffman and Michael McCulloch of the Pine St. Pharmacy in San Anselmo were invited by the China Academy of Sciences to examine medical texts that were found at Dunhuang, a very isolated post along the Silk Road in the great deserts of Western China. Many of the medical texts that were found had Buddhist influences, and according to Michael, the corpus of these works provided sufficient evidence for what he called " an alternative Chinese medicine " that will greatly expand the knowledge base of what China has in its medicine. My sense is that as these texts come to light and become available for study, they will have even a greater impact than the discovery of the Mawangdui texts that were discovered a few decades ago. Chinese medicine is vast, spanning centuries and tremendous resources, texts and styles. We can look forward to further adventures in discovering more and more about what we thought we knew, only to have our preconceptions opened up again and again. Chinese Medicine , " " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Emmanuel, > > Yes, i undersatand that the oral tradition is much more powerful and > practical than the literature based one. This is exactly why i'm > shocked by Unschuld's speech. > > Yes, i can see he's directing WM doctors and is leaning their way to > give them the important message of their own doom. Hence, he uses > phrases to 'bring them in' as it were, get therm in his palm so he > can more effectively deliver the real message he wants to convay. > But, nevertheless, the comments he makes, which i've already listed, > as nothing more than sell-out sentences. And i really don't care, > that its because he's trying to protray a greater message to them. > > He comments have done no favours for TCM, instead coming from a man > that seems to back TCM, are a strong 'living' negative attack > against TCM. > > Anyway, getting onto a much more interesting subject, the literature > found in the Silk road cave sounds very very interesting. Does Zev > have any more info on it? > > And talking of translations, i hope to do some in the future. My > Korean wife also has a degree in Chinese literature and coupled with > the Welin software, which should be in my grubby little hands soon, > i'll be putting my wife and the software to do use. > > Attilio > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 " an alternative Chinese medicine " >>>Which is what Taoist med as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 Z'ev, Thank you for picking up the thread and representing properly what I was unable to represent even though I sat next to you when Michael Broffman spoke. I'm amused that Michael seemed to look more directly into my eyes as he spoke, while it was you who understood and digested the content of his words so much better than me. Perhaps he was providing a healing for me while speaking really to you. I wanted to tell you again how grateful I feel that you included me in your meeting with Michael. What a remarkable day that was on so many levels. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen P.S. Attilio, this is something to sink your teeth into regarding translation if you can get a chance to work on it. - zrosenberg2001 Chinese Medicine Monday, September 08, 2003 11:04 AM Re: Unschuld's speech Attilio, I wanted to address a few issues and concerns you had. 1) Paul Unschuld is a man I know and consider to be a compassionate, clear-headed individual who truly cares about his work and clarity of understanding of Chinese medicine. Having read the " and Technology " article several years ago, my understanding was not that it was " anti-TCM " . I felt he was simply trying to point out the attraction of the elements of Chinese medicine that appealed to the 'Green Party' environmentalist mentality, which was a legitimate reaction to the appalling destruction to Europe by war and industrialization. This was reflected in the development of biomedicine, which, after all, largely developed in Germany during and after WW I. He makes the points that Chinese medicine is much more than just an 'anti-technological' medicine, and that Chinese culture is hardly immune from environmental sins over the millenia. There are aspects of Chinese medicine that embrace technology wholeheartedly, and aspects that are allopathic and iatrogenic as well. Finally, we often superimpose our limited conceptions and biases onto Chinese medicine itself. This is not what I would call " anti-TCM " . It is anti-polemical. 2) As far as the Dunhuang manuscripts go, I can only give you second-hand information. Michael Broffman and Michael McCulloch of the Pine St. Pharmacy in San Anselmo were invited by the China Academy of Sciences to examine medical texts that were found at Dunhuang, a very isolated post along the Silk Road in the great deserts of Western China. Many of the medical texts that were found had Buddhist influences, and according to Michael, the corpus of these works provided sufficient evidence for what he called " an alternative Chinese medicine " that will greatly expand the knowledge base of what China has in its medicine. My sense is that as these texts come to light and become available for study, they will have even a greater impact than the discovery of the Mawangdui texts that were discovered a few decades ago. Chinese medicine is vast, spanning centuries and tremendous resources, texts and styles. We can look forward to further adventures in discovering more and more about what we thought we knew, only to have our preconceptions opened up again and again. <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Hi Emmanuel, > > Yes, i undersatand that the oral tradition is much more powerful and > practical than the literature based one. This is exactly why i'm > shocked by Unschuld's speech. > > Yes, i can see he's directing WM doctors and is leaning their way to > give them the important message of their own doom. Hence, he uses phrases to 'bring them in' as it were, get therm in his palm so he can more effectively deliver the real message he wants to convay. But, nevertheless, the comments he makes, which i've already listed, as nothing more than sell-out sentences. And i really don't care, that its because he's trying to protray a greater message to them. > > He comments have done no favours for TCM, instead coming from a man that seems to back TCM, are a strong 'living' negative attack against TCM. > > Anyway, getting onto a much more interesting subject, the literature found in the Silk road cave sounds very very interesting. Does Zev have any more info on it? > > And talking of translations, i hope to do some in the future. My Korean wife also has a degree in Chinese literature and coupled with the Welin software, which should be in my grubby little hands soon, i'll be putting my wife and the software to do use. > > Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 " zrosenberg2001 " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: I felt he was simply trying to point out the attraction of the elements of Chinese medicine that appealed to the 'Green Party' environmentalist mentality. He makes the points that Chinese medicine is much more than just an 'anti- technological' medicine. The audience does not, in my view, have the right to alter so drastically the outcome of the speech. He still effectively portrayed TCM in a negative, it doesn't work, off-hand candour manner that was unnecessary. I quote again from his speech " Chinese medicine is not preferred by a segment of the population because it is more effective than Western medicine (that is definitely not the case) " . As far as the Dunhuang manuscripts go as these texts come to light and become available for study, they will have even a greater impact than the discovery of the Mawangdui texts that were discovered a few decades ago. Chinese medicine is vast, spanning centuries and tremendous resources, texts and styles. We can look forward to further adventures in discovering more and more about what we thought we knew, only to have our preconceptions opened up again and again. Ahh, I can't wait. Please keep us posted as to when they are to be made more available. I feel like a small boy at Christmas time all over again. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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