Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 reread my last post and thought to clarify something. I use ear seeds and interdermals/press tacks ... but do not consider these to be patient self treatment, more sustained treatment from the office visit. I never send folks home with press tacks on the ears as I find it too brutal. Ear seeds seem to work well enough. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 In some of the places i see patients i do indeed teach the patients (or more often their Moms or Dads or Partners) how to do a specific Tx with needles. Been doing this for over 30 yrs with never a single problem. [b'ruch Ha Shem] Doc Maya <YinTangSong wrote: reread my last post and thought to clarify something. I use ear seeds and interdermals/press tacks ... but do not consider these to be patient self treatment, more sustained treatment from the office visit. I never send folks home with press tacks on the ears as I find it too brutal. Ear seeds seem to work well enough. Maya For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2003 Report Share Posted September 7, 2003 hi, i do use earpoints. but i prefer to use them during treatment only. i have heard from doctors who have had patients presenting with ear infections at needle site with needle in situ. press needles or intradermal needles were used & this set the tone for acupuncturists not doing the right thing. i am VERY SURE THAT IT WAS THE PATIENT WHO WAS AT FAULT IN MOST OF THESE CASES, AS THEY DID NOT PRESETNT FOR FOLLOWUP. unde the present scenario where i would like to build credibility, i would rather sacrifice the ear needle implants & get the credibility high before i risk it to be washed away with one bad patient or panic. same will ahppen if apt has an acedent & ends up in hospital. the medical profession will jump at it & ram it down our throat. so we need to be extra careful is the PREMISE I FOLLOW. waht do you think anand --- <> wrote: > Hi Anand, > Intradermal needles such as press spheres are > perhaps less dangerous than the standard TCM ear > needle. The are a small ball in varing types of > metal. Once in place the practitioner can give a > written note on the safety of such needles, > including duration of placement. When these needles > are used there should be no pain or recognition by > the patient that there is anything there. It is a > subtle part of the treatment. > > Also there is a intradermal needle which lies across > the skin, taped in place with two pieces of tape, > with the small needle shaft (1.5mm) laying between > the two and the point of the needle laying on the > skin covered like a blanket by the second piece of > tape. > > It would be such a pity to miss out on the > remarkable use of intradermals as an acupuncture > tool. The can reduce a great deal of pain, and give > the practitioner, 'another bit at the cherry', so to > speak in the treatment process. They can be easily > used on the hand in the Korean AP system, the ear or > on regular body acup points. I have seen frozen > shoulders just about disappear with ear acupuncture > and an intradermal. > > Being well schooled in any acupuncture techniqe is > important and a practitioner shouldn't proceed, IMO, > if they are not feeling competent in a proceedure. > There are some techniques that I have not yet > mastered well enough and so I do not use them until > I am better understanding their application. > > regards > Sharon > - > anand bapat > Chinese Medicine > Friday, September 05, 2003 7:49 AM > Re: Re: self needling > > > i think its abig risk with self nedling. what > happens > in case of accident. the pt is going to say the > acupuncturist told me to do it whether its done > correctly or incorrectly. > waht about the consequences of others seeing this > pt > do it & try it themselves. so all in alll very > risky. > i do not use too may ear needles(overnight) as i > do > not trust the pt to sytimulate correctly & get > results. if the pt doe not do it right, then we > are > repsponsible & our results suffer. > so one needs to be careful at all times. > please be extra careful of litigation. > anand > > > > --- Lynn Detamore <healthworks > wrote: > Marco: Should self needling be encourage > as > part of > > a treatment plan? > > Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for > many > > years. Patients do > > well. Just avoid dangerous areas. > > rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation > > standpoint. self-massage is a > > totally different story. > > > > Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the > > states, patently against the > > law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some > > strange idiosyncratic > > passage in the state laws I have read. since we > are > > required to be > > accountable for each and every needle, if we > send a > > needle in an unopened > > blister pack home with a patient so he can show > his > > friends, we have risked > > our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to > be > > the authority figure > > with the patient who's begging to do show and > tell, > > or - it doesn't matter > > why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed > > professional does not disqualify > > one from donating blood, your patient will be > > disqualified if they find out > > that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent > home > > with them. This excepts > > retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our > > sight, we cannot vouch for > > safety or hygeine. > > > > hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - > most > > LAc's in the states will > > know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk > > Management - was one of my > > teachers in school. that was before he published > his > > book, but I had the > > concepts in the book drilled in during classes. > as > > of last year, he is also > > a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of > sending > > needles home with > > patients, let alone trusting them with self > > needling, sends a few chills > > down my spine. > > > > p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue > > Poppy at home right now. > > it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it > > no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or > David > > Kailin. I just think > > that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM > > schools. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > ===== > Anand Bapat > Pain Management Specialist > Sports Injury Specialist > Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville > 0402 472 897 > > > > > > ______________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE > Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2003 Report Share Posted September 7, 2003 To each there own Anand. I know the TCM ear tack needle is very painful and easy to cause infection, especially in hot humid climates. The others, especially the press spheres, may cause irriation due to reaction to the metal. Yet as I say, my experience is that the results of the intradermals in general far outweigh, the side effects. Px education about how long to leave in etc is a must. Sharon - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Sunday, September 07, 2003 9:37 AM Re: Re: self needling hi, i do use earpoints. but i prefer to use them during treatment only. i have heard from doctors who have had patients presenting with ear infections at needle site with needle in situ. press needles or intradermal needles were used & this set the tone for acupuncturists not doing the right thing. i am VERY SURE THAT IT WAS THE PATIENT WHO WAS AT FAULT IN MOST OF THESE CASES, AS THEY DID NOT PRESETNT FOR FOLLOWUP. unde the present scenario where i would like to build credibility, i would rather sacrifice the ear needle implants & get the credibility high before i risk it to be washed away with one bad patient or panic. same will ahppen if apt has an acedent & ends up in hospital. the medical profession will jump at it & ram it down our throat. so we need to be extra careful is the PREMISE I FOLLOW. waht do you think anand --- <> wrote: > Hi Anand, > Intradermal needles such as press spheres are > perhaps less dangerous than the standard TCM ear > needle. The are a small ball in varing types of > metal. Once in place the practitioner can give a > written note on the safety of such needles, > including duration of placement. When these needles > are used there should be no pain or recognition by > the patient that there is anything there. It is a > subtle part of the treatment. > > Also there is a intradermal needle which lies across > the skin, taped in place with two pieces of tape, > with the small needle shaft (1.5mm) laying between > the two and the point of the needle laying on the > skin covered like a blanket by the second piece of > tape. > > It would be such a pity to miss out on the > remarkable use of intradermals as an acupuncture > tool. The can reduce a great deal of pain, and give > the practitioner, 'another bit at the cherry', so to > speak in the treatment process. They can be easily > used on the hand in the Korean AP system, the ear or > on regular body acup points. I have seen frozen > shoulders just about disappear with ear acupuncture > and an intradermal. > > Being well schooled in any acupuncture techniqe is > important and a practitioner shouldn't proceed, IMO, > if they are not feeling competent in a proceedure. > There are some techniques that I have not yet > mastered well enough and so I do not use them until > I am better understanding their application. > > regards > Sharon > - > anand bapat > Chinese Medicine > Friday, September 05, 2003 7:49 AM > Re: Re: self needling > > > i think its abig risk with self nedling. what > happens > in case of accident. the pt is going to say the > acupuncturist told me to do it whether its done > correctly or incorrectly. > waht about the consequences of others seeing this > pt > do it & try it themselves. so all in alll very > risky. > i do not use too may ear needles(overnight) as i > do > not trust the pt to sytimulate correctly & get > results. if the pt doe not do it right, then we > are > repsponsible & our results suffer. > so one needs to be careful at all times. > please be extra careful of litigation. > anand > > > > --- Lynn Detamore <healthworks > wrote: > Marco: Should self needling be encourage > as > part of > > a treatment plan? > > Alon: As i said i think so and have done so for > many > > years. Patients do > > well. Just avoid dangerous areas. > > rh: to me it seems risky from a litigation > > standpoint. self-massage is a > > totally different story. > > > > Lynn: have patients self-needle is, here in the > > states, patently against the > > law, unless I was simply unable to uncover some > > strange idiosyncratic > > passage in the state laws I have read. since we > are > > required to be > > accountable for each and every needle, if we > send a > > needle in an unopened > > blister pack home with a patient so he can show > his > > friends, we have risked > > our license for a bit of vanity, or inability to > be > > the authority figure > > with the patient who's begging to do show and > tell, > > or - it doesn't matter > > why. also, though acupuncture by a licensed > > professional does not disqualify > > one from donating blood, your patient will be > > disqualified if they find out > > that the patient had an acupuncture needle sent > home > > with them. This excepts > > retained ear tacks. once the needles leaves our > > sight, we cannot vouch for > > safety or hygeine. > > > > hate to get on a bandwagon, but David Kailin - > most > > LAc's in the states will > > know his name, the author of Acupuncture Risk > > Management - was one of my > > teachers in school. that was before he published > his > > book, but I had the > > concepts in the book drilled in during classes. > as > > of last year, he is also > > a PhD in Public Health. so, the thought of > sending > > needles home with > > patients, let alone trusting them with self > > needling, sends a few chills > > down my spine. > > > > p.s. I also have David Kailin's course from Blue > > Poppy at home right now. > > it's really good. buy it, buy it, buy it > > no, I'm not receiving a commission from BP or > David > > Kailin. I just think > > that course ought to be mandatory in all the AOM > > schools. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > ===== > Anand Bapat > Pain Management Specialist > Sports Injury Specialist > Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville > 0402 472 897 > > > > > > ______________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE > Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2003 Report Share Posted September 7, 2003 Sharon wrote: " I know the TCM ear tack needle is very painful and easy to cause infection, especially in hot humid climates. The others, especially the press spheres, may cause irriation due to reaction to the metal. " There is an alternative to the " press spheres " , as you call them. I avoid the use of metal ear seeds and just use actual ear seeds (helio offers ones using vaccaria seeds). There is no concern for irritation and if you use the ones with the micropore tape (not the clear) they hold quite well and comfortably. I have found the ones on the clear tape to become slimey in the shower and bothersome to many folks. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 At one point I was into using the seeds on small adhesive tape as they were effective but found not only the siftness potential but sometimes they got so embedded in the ear breaking through the cartilage that - for me - they weren't worth the trouble. Each to their own niche. There are so many pathways to specialize in and thats what makes this wholism so great. Richard > Hi Maya, > Many thanks for your comments on seeds. I use to use seeds, but found in > our hot humid climate that they became soft and a bit not so nice. I even > wondered it they might sprout! > > I have not had any problems with the metal balls and infection. But then > the teaching I have had says leave them in up to 4 days. I always advise that > if they make the condition worse (in the px's opinion) or if they cause any > irritation, discomfort etc take them off immediately. The type of metal can > also be used to tonify or disperse a point too, or so the theory goes! > > There is also appropriate ways to place the different intradermals; that is > relative to joints and human movement. > > Either way seeds or metal, sounds like you also find them an effective tool! > > Regards > Sharon > ----- Original Message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Hi Maya, Many thanks for your comments on seeds. I use to use seeds, but found in our hot humid climate that they became soft and a bit not so nice. I even wondered it they might sprout! I have not had any problems with the metal balls and infection. But then the teaching I have had says leave them in up to 4 days. I always advise that if they make the condition worse (in the px's opinion) or if they cause any irritation, discomfort etc take them off immediately. The type of metal can also be used to tonify or disperse a point too, or so the theory goes! There is also appropriate ways to place the different intradermals; that is relative to joints and human movement. Either way seeds or metal, sounds like you also find them an effective tool! Regards Sharon - Maya Chinese Medicine Monday, September 08, 2003 8:05 AM Re: self needling Sharon wrote: " I know the TCM ear tack needle is very painful and easy to cause infection, especially in hot humid climates. The others, especially the press spheres, may cause irriation due to reaction to the metal. " There is an alternative to the " press spheres " , as you call them. I avoid the use of metal ear seeds and just use actual ear seeds (helio offers ones using vaccaria seeds). There is no concern for irritation and if you use the ones with the micropore tape (not the clear) they hold quite well and comfortably. I have found the ones on the clear tape to become slimey in the shower and bothersome to many folks. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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