Guest guest Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 A question for the TCM crowd ) What will be the difference in the pulse quality within these two different scenarios: the Liver chi stagnation & liver yin deficiency? No looking in the books folks ), just your practical view. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 one thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy or force in beggining of pulse wave, other too <vbirang wrote:A question for the TCM crowd ) What will be the difference in the pulse quality within these two different scenarios: the Liver chi stagnation & liver yin deficiency? No looking in the books folks ), just your practical view. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 a very good question vanessa.. i will try & rack my brains for the answer & hope its somewhere near the reality. liver chi stagnation will be slow, hard, & may peak occasionnally. liver yin deficiency - will present as deep, slow & weak. may be soft & disappear with pressure. i would like to take this pulse picture & corelate with other signs & symptoms. please let us know the result so we can learn. thanks anand --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > one thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver > yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy or > force in beggining of pulse wave, other too > > <vbirang wrote:A question > for the TCM crowd ) > > What will be the difference in the pulse quality > within these two different scenarios: the Liver chi > stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > No looking in the books folks ), just your > practical view. > Vanessa > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 In answer to the question posed, this is what I basically look for: for Liver Chi stagnation, the pulse would be wiry, esp. at the liver position (guan, middle left). For Liver yin deficiency, the pulse would be weak, esp. at the liver position. I'm curious to see what others feel. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:29:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, vbirang writes: > What will be the difference in the pulse quality within these two different > scenarios: the Liver chi stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > yin xu is heat so the pulse would be rapid and wiry. Lv stagnation would be wiry. gh. what do i win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 You win a mercedes bens 2004 brand new with gas for 100 years. Gina wrote: >>yin xu is heat so the pulse would be rapid and wiry. Lv stagnation would be wiry.>> yin xu doesn't necessarily means heat, but some form of exaustion that can be in the normal side for heat condition. There is heat conditioncreated by yin deficiency that doesn't fall in the fast pulse pattern. Liver stagnation can produce another pattern in the pulse such as strong, superficial, flooding, excessive full. Wouldn't you and others agree? The reason for my question concerning these type of difference was to bring the attention to the detail within possibilities of pattern to determine a condition pulse presented. Vanessa Acupunkgina wrote: In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:29:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, vbirang writes: > What will be the difference in the pulse quality within these two different > scenarios: the Liver chi stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > yin xu is heat so the pulse would be rapid and wiry. Lv stagnation would be wiry. gh. what do i win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 I am not saying that the description given by gina is wrong. But I would like to bring the attention to the possible difference within the liver patter as in yin deficiency and stagnation. Vanessa >> Acupunkgina wrote: In a message dated 8/26/2003 1:29:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, vbirang writes: > What will be the difference in the pulse quality within these two different > scenarios: the Liver chi stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > yin xu is heat so the pulse would be rapid and wiry. Lv stagnation would be wiry. gh. what do i win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Hello Anand , I like to mention that pulse is a very interesting subject and with amazing possibilities. There is a one way answer to my qyesion, but there is closer pattern in quality difference in the liver stagnation and yin deficiency. As I found in the yin deficiency I usually get a stronger dysfunctional pulse pattern with rough edges, not fast always but slightly possible depending in the degree of total disturbance in the liver or adjacent organ relationships. Liver stagnation I find to be many times very strong, flooding, large & empty, superficial-strong-empty,sometimes fast to a degree, hard slightly wiry. So there you go open to discussion. Vanessa >> anand bapat <acubapat wrote: a very good question vanessa.. i will try & rack my brains for the answer & hope its somewhere near the reality. liver chi stagnation will be slow, hard, & may peak occasionnally. liver yin deficiency - will present as deep, slow & weak. may be soft & disappear with pressure. i would like to take this pulse picture & corelate with other signs & symptoms. please let us know the result so we can learn. thanks anand --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > one thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver > yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy or > force in beggining of pulse wave, other too > > <vbirang wrote:A question > for the TCM crowd ) > > What will be the difference in the pulse quality > within these two different scenarios: the Liver chi > stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > No looking in the books folks ), just your > practical view. > Vanessa > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 >yin xu doesn't necessarily means heat, but some form of exaustion that can be in >the normal side for heat condition. There is heat condition created by yin >deficiency that doesn't fall in the fast pulse pattern. Does heat include inflammation and hyper-function, or does it have to be temperature-hot like fever? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Hello Jackie there is inflamation that happens below the level of heat( felt at the pulse stage) but still within the inflamatory quality. This can fall in the begging of a possible stronger inflamatory condition but just felt in the starting of this process. Hyperfunction can produz heat and or not , but will at one point fall in deficiency/exaustion. Would you agree?? Vanessa >> jackie <Jackie wrote: >yin xu doesn't necessarily means heat, but some form of exaustion that can be in >the normal side for heat condition. There is heat condition created by yin >deficiency that doesn't fall in the fast pulse pattern. Does heat include inflammation and hyper-function, or does it have to be temperature-hot like fever? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 hi, thanks for that. the explanation sounds better than mine. what about tour results with cervical spondylitis. pts with pins & needles in hands & arms weak. how are the results. i find very good results. comments please. anand --- <vbirang wrote: > Hello Anand , I like to mention that pulse is a very > interesting subject and with amazing possibilities. > There is a one way answer to my qyesion, but there > is closer pattern in quality difference in the liver > stagnation and yin deficiency. > As I found in the yin deficiency I usually get a > stronger dysfunctional pulse pattern with rough > edges, not fast always but slightly possible > depending in the degree of total disturbance in the > liver or adjacent organ relationships. > Liver stagnation I find to be many times very > strong, flooding, large & empty, > superficial-strong-empty,sometimes fast to a degree, > hard slightly wiry. > So there you go open to discussion. > Vanessa > >> > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > a very good question vanessa.. > i will try & rack my brains for the answer & hope > its > somewhere near the reality. > liver chi stagnation will be slow, hard, & may peak > occasionnally. > liver yin deficiency - will present as deep, slow & > weak. may be soft & disappear with pressure. > i would like to take this pulse picture & corelate > with other signs & symptoms. > please let us know the result so we can learn. > thanks > anand > > > --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > one > thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver > > yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy or > > force in beggining of pulse wave, other too > > > > <vbirang wrote:A > question > > for the TCM crowd ) > > > > What will be the difference in the pulse quality > > within these two different scenarios: the Liver > chi > > stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > > > No looking in the books folks ), just your > > practical view. > > Vanessa > > > > > > > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > design software > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 >Hello Jackie there is inflamation that happens below the level of heat( felt at the >pulse stage) but still within the inflamatory quality. This can fall in the begging of >a possible stronger inflamatory condition but just felt in the starting of this process. Right- that was my best guess at what I see with regard to adverse responses particularly. A low-level inflammation/heat that is 'fanned into flame'. So that is still categorised as heat at the early stage? >Hyperfunction can produz heat and or not , but will at one point fall in >deficiency/exaustion. >Would you agree?? Yes, that makes sense to me - I think of deficiency heat as an increase in any 'excitary processes' producing eg excess hormonal output of gland, excess yang. Whereas hypofunction is more like yang/qi deficiency. Does that make sense? The trouble for me is separating the concept of hyperfunction from the TCM concept of excess, they don't always coincide, though in my western mind, yin deficiency hyperfunction is still a type of excess! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Hello Anand , I have good results too. Could you explain your treatment plan? V >> anand bapat <acubapat wrote: hi, thanks for that. the explanation sounds better than mine. what about tour results with cervical spondylitis. pts with pins & needles in hands & arms weak. how are the results. i find very good results. comments please. anand --- <vbirang wrote: > Hello Anand , I like to mention that pulse is a very > interesting subject and with amazing possibilities. > There is a one way answer to my qyesion, but there > is closer pattern in quality difference in the liver > stagnation and yin deficiency. > As I found in the yin deficiency I usually get a > stronger dysfunctional pulse pattern with rough > edges, not fast always but slightly possible > depending in the degree of total disturbance in the > liver or adjacent organ relationships. > Liver stagnation I find to be many times very > strong, flooding, large & empty, > superficial-strong-empty,sometimes fast to a degree, > hard slightly wiry. > So there you go open to discussion. > Vanessa > >> > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > a very good question vanessa.. > i will try & rack my brains for the answer & hope > its > somewhere near the reality. > liver chi stagnation will be slow, hard, & may peak > occasionnally. > liver yin deficiency - will present as deep, slow & > weak. may be soft & disappear with pressure. > i would like to take this pulse picture & corelate > with other signs & symptoms. > please let us know the result so we can learn. > thanks > anand > > > --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > one > thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver > > yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy or > > force in beggining of pulse wave, other too > > > > <vbirang wrote:A > question > > for the TCM crowd ) > > > > What will be the difference in the pulse quality > > within these two different scenarios: the Liver > chi > > stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > > > No looking in the books folks ), just your > > practical view. > > Vanessa > > > > > > > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > design software > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Hello Jackie I would say : Good shot ) >Hello Jackie there is inflammation that happens below the level of heat( felt at the >pulse stage) but still within the inflammatory quality. This can fall in the begging of >a possible stronger inflammatory condition but just felt in the starting of this process. Right- that was my best guess at what I see with regard to adverse responses particularly. A low-level inflammation/heat that is 'fanned into flame'. So that is still categorised as heat at the early stage?>> There is some stages of heat building up that is almost impossible to determine by pulse or tongue, but with some logics we would determine the possibility. At that stage just simple regulation of the chi on the meridian is enough to bring balance. Many things disturbs the internal process(chi & Blood patterns) and diet /emotion is some of the elements influencing many of the growth of this heat syndromes and many times is out of the control of the practitioner. But can be detected and a point can be added in the prescription for this subtle disturbance. >Hyperfunction can produce heat and or not , but will at one point fall in >deficiency/exhaustion. >Would you agree?? Yes, that makes sense to me - I think of deficiency heat as an increase in any 'excitary processes' producing eg excess hormonal output of gland, excess yang. Whereas hypofunction is more like yang/qi deficiency. Does that make sense? The trouble for me is separating the concept of hyperfunction from the TCM concept of excess, they don't always coincide, though in my western mind, yin deficiency hyperfunction is still a type of excess! Jackie>. I totally understand your point of view. But I need to say that there are hyperfunction as in excess function based on disturbances and excess TCM based on deficiency of a mother 5 element speaking and the excess of physiology TCM based on exterior influences( diet, emotion etc...) Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 >>I totally understand your point of view. But I need to say that there are hyperfunction as in excess function based on disturbances and excess TCM based on deficiency of a mother 5 element speaking Like Liver excess because of kidney yin deficiency? and the excess of physiology TCM based on exterior influences( diet, emotion etc...) Not so familiar with those....but I guess frustration, anger and liver stagnation. Jackie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 >>I totally understand your point of view. But I need to say that there are hyperfunction as in excess function based on disturbances and excess TCM based on deficiency of a mother 5 element speaking>> Jackie : Like Liver excess because of kidney yin deficiency?>> Yes can be or ex: emotions, hard work,diet disturbing the energetic function of the liver. Creating an excess of yang, based on an over use of yin or deficinecy of yin based on those elements I mention( diet, stress....) But offcourse kidney yin deficiency will produce Liver excess. >>and the excess of physiology TCM based on exterior influences( diet, emotion etc...) Not so familiar with those....but I guess frustration, anger and liver stagnation. Jackie.>> Yes, I would agree. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 hi, i have found curative results with c.spondylitis. the results show better long term gains with a consistent program of exercises, which i have devised through different sources. i will categorise the pts. 1. mild - pins & needles occasionally when tired or sleeping in a poosition-side or with arm under head. 2. where there is pins 7 needles with pain all the time at anominal level. 3. pain, pins & needles & maybe weakness in arms,hands, etc. headaches can be a common factor for any of these. the first simple test for diagnosis of it coming from the neck is check movements & if some of the exercises fix it within a few inutes then the problem is muscular. its generally muscular most of the time. treatments 1. gentle treament -LI4,Liv 3, ear shen men & maybe use GB21 if reqd. within afew treatments with exercises pt is better. then follow up pt for 3 months at fortnightly/monthlyintervals to ensure compliance & its rooted out of the system. exercises for all are the same as feasible. its a combination of isometric & isotonic muscle contraction. the movts are 1. neck side to side, 2 neck up & down. here please ensure care is taken to make sure that the neck is in one plane only horizontal & vertical only. otherwise this will cause the problem. a good way of ensuring horizontal movt is the stand against awall & keep the head in touch with the wall at all times. the movts must be done against resistance self created from within the muscles rather than external forces. this is the safety factor. here there is no chance of trauma to the muscles. 3. shoulder shrug against resistance asmentioned above going up & down -both ways. this develops the suprascapularis & the lattisimus dorsi. 4. double back stroke in swimming & 5. butterfly stroke in swimming both against internal resistance. pt starts with 5 reps each & builds upto 25 each/day. this is generally enough to maintain the body. stage 2 condition- here i will use more of local needles-GB21,20, Bl10, SI 11, paraspinal points locally tight muscle groups. local points are to be sedated, besides LI4.Liv3,e.shen men, etc as reqd. sometimes will use St36 or Kid 3. stage 3 - will use more of Kid pts & may use GV14 & moxa in that area in addition to some of above points. let me know what you think bye anand --- <vbirang wrote: > Hello Anand , I have good results too. > Could you explain your treatment plan? > V > > >> > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > hi, > thanks for that. the explanation sounds better than > mine. > what about tour results with cervical spondylitis. > pts > with pins & needles in hands & arms weak. how are > the > results. > i find very good results. > comments please. > anand > > > > > --- <vbirang wrote: > > Hello > Anand , I like to mention that pulse is a very > > interesting subject and with amazing > possibilities. > > There is a one way answer to my qyesion, but there > > is closer pattern in quality difference in the > liver > > stagnation and yin deficiency. > > As I found in the yin deficiency I usually get a > > stronger dysfunctional pulse pattern with rough > > edges, not fast always but slightly possible > > depending in the degree of total disturbance in > the > > liver or adjacent organ relationships. > > Liver stagnation I find to be many times very > > strong, flooding, large & empty, > > superficial-strong-empty,sometimes fast to a > degree, > > hard slightly wiry. > > So there you go open to discussion. > > Vanessa > > >> > > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > > a very good question vanessa.. > > i will try & rack my brains for the answer & hope > > its > > somewhere near the reality. > > liver chi stagnation will be slow, hard, & may > peak > > occasionnally. > > liver yin deficiency - will present as deep, slow > & > > weak. may be soft & disappear with pressure. > > i would like to take this pulse picture & corelate > > with other signs & symptoms. > > please let us know the result so we can learn. > > thanks > > anand > > > > > > --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > one > > thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver > > > yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy or > > > force in beggining of pulse wave, other too > > > > > > <vbirang wrote:A > > question > > > for the TCM crowd ) > > > > > > What will be the difference in the pulse quality > > > within these two different scenarios: the Liver > > chi > > > stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > > > > > No looking in the books folks ), just your > > > practical view. > > > Vanessa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > > > design software > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Very interesting the way you use exercise in combination with acupuncture. And the most important is that you get great results. I have to say impressive. Vanessa >> anand bapat wrote it: > hi, > i have found curative results with c.spondylitis. > the results show better long term gains with a > consistent program of exercises, which i have > devised > through different sources. > i will categorise the pts. > 1. mild - pins & needles occasionally when tired or > sleeping in a poosition-side or with arm under head. > 2. where there is pins 7 needles with pain all the > time at anominal level. > 3. pain, pins & needles & maybe weakness in > arms,hands, etc. > > headaches can be a common factor for any of these. > the first simple test for diagnosis of it coming > from > the neck is check movements & if some of the > exercises > fix it within a few inutes then the problem is > muscular. > its generally muscular most of the time. > treatments > 1. gentle treament -LI4,Liv 3, ear shen men & maybe > use GB21 if reqd. within afew treatments with > exercises pt is better. then follow up pt for 3 > months > at fortnightly/monthlyintervals to ensure compliance > & > its rooted out of the system. > exercises for all are the same as feasible. its a > combination of isometric & isotonic muscle > contraction. > the movts are 1. neck side to side, 2 neck up & > down. > here please ensure care is taken to make sure that > the > neck is in one plane only horizontal & vertical > only. > otherwise this will cause the problem. > a good way of ensuring horizontal movt is the stand > against awall & keep the head in touch with the wall > at all times. > the movts must be done against resistance self > created > from within the muscles rather than external forces. > this is the safety factor. here there is no chance > of > trauma to the muscles. > 3. shoulder shrug against resistance asmentioned > above > going up & down -both ways. this develops the > suprascapularis & the lattisimus dorsi. > 4. double back stroke in swimming & 5. butterfly > stroke in swimming both against internal resistance. > pt starts with 5 reps each & builds upto 25 > each/day. > this is generally enough to maintain the body. > stage 2 condition- here i will use more of local > needles-GB21,20, Bl10, SI 11, paraspinal points > locally tight muscle groups. local points are to be > sedated, besides LI4.Liv3,e.shen men, etc as reqd. > sometimes will use St36 or Kid 3. > stage 3 - will use more of Kid pts & may use GV14 & > moxa in that area in addition to some of above > points. > let me know what you think > bye > anand > > > > --- <vbirang wrote: > > Hello > Anand , I have good results too. > > Could you explain your treatment plan? > > V > > > > >> > > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > > hi, > > thanks for that. the explanation sounds better > than > > mine. > > what about tour results with cervical spondylitis. > > pts > > with pins & needles in hands & arms weak. how are > > the > > results. > > i find very good results. > > comments please. > > anand > > > > > > > > > > --- <vbirang wrote: > > > Hello > > Anand , I like to mention that pulse is a very > > > interesting subject and with amazing > > possibilities. > > > There is a one way answer to my qyesion, but > there > > > is closer pattern in quality difference in the > > liver > > > stagnation and yin deficiency. > > > As I found in the yin deficiency I usually get a > > > stronger dysfunctional pulse pattern with rough > > > edges, not fast always but slightly possible > > > depending in the degree of total disturbance in > > the > > > liver or adjacent organ relationships. > > > Liver stagnation I find to be many times very > > > strong, flooding, large & empty, > > > superficial-strong-empty,sometimes fast to a > > degree, > > > hard slightly wiry. > > > So there you go open to discussion. > > > Vanessa > > > >> > > > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > > > a very good question vanessa.. > > > i will try & rack my brains for the answer & > hope > > > its > > > somewhere near the reality. > > > liver chi stagnation will be slow, hard, & may > > peak > > > occasionnally. > > > liver yin deficiency - will present as deep, > slow > > & > > > weak. may be soft & disappear with pressure. > > > i would like to take this pulse picture & > corelate > > > with other signs & symptoms. > > > please let us know the result so we can learn. > > > thanks > > > anand > > > > > > > > > --- mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote: > one > > > thing may be a thinner vessel(pulse) as liver > > > > yin is close w blood. not as much immediacy > or > > > > force in beggining of pulse wave, other too > > > > > > > > <vbirang wrote:A > > > question > > > > for the TCM crowd ) > > > > > > > > What will be the difference in the pulse > quality > > > > within these two different scenarios: the > Liver > > > chi > > > > stagnation & liver yin deficiency? > > > > > > > > No looking in the books folks ), just your > > > > practical view. > > > > Vanessa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web > site > > > > design software > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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