Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 dear Atitilio, In Vietnam at least south Vietnam they treat drug addiction apparently very well and will try to look for some contact information. One style is Professor Throng Thinh (spelling may be incorrect apologies). The style is a bit rigid but I imaged it is actually fast for diagnostic purposes and as with many styles it seamed to give acceptable results. If you will try to convey more about this particular stream of acumoxa. They make a difference between yang channel and yin channels which is now also dependent on which side of the body: Left yang Right Yin Then they manipulate the needles differently, this manipulating the needles seam to be in accordance with the Nan ching. Where some parts articulates about the channels being centripetical and centrifugal... Mostly the diagnoses is yin fire " down " vacuity (not exactly the same yin fire as Li Dong or?)and in the acute stage yang fire " up " (either repletion or false repletion). Which channels are affected depends a lot on which front mu or back shu points are sensitive. I think Snakeoilworks (if you are on the list) can elaborate more about Vietnamese acupuncture. One thing though, less my memory fools me they said that they treat the acute withdrawal phase more then once a day maybe five +, this they can do since the set up permits it - INTERESTING - Take care Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Dear Attilio, learning meditation and qi gong would probably be a major part of the treatment... From what I could remember lot of people seam to have a Shaoyin failing to communicate with jing essence drying and fire in heart pericardium. Of course the liver will be involved east west and the spleen according to Chinese medicine seams regularly damage. As always it is a question of degrees of affected and how... I am not saying this is the way it is. Have any one opinion of dopamine? " it seams interrelated with heart yin " When one meditates say certain Buddhist meditation and develops (hopefully:-) loving and kindness is this in a way affecting heart yin creatively? Have meditation and dopamine some relation or correlation? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 To all list members, I'm looking for information on the use of acupuncture to treat cocaine addiction. I have quite alot already but need more. Can anyone help? Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Attilio, I've had great success using the NADA 5ndl protocol as the basis and adding some body pts by pulse and tongue. Doc <attiliodalberto wrote: To all list members, I'm looking for information on the use of acupuncture to treat cocaine addiction. I have quite alot already but need more. Can anyone help? Attilio True security must be rooted in true and complete social, economic and environmental justice for everyone everywhere with no exceptions. Anything else is an illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Doc <drdrdoc> wrote: I've had great success using the NADA 5ndl protocol as the basis and adding some body pts by pulse and tongue. Doc Yes, i'm concentrating my research on the NADA protocol only. I'm looking for RCTs, case studies and comments made towards those two areas. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 In a message dated 8/27/03 6:49:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, acubapat writes: I'm looking for information on the use of > acupuncture to treat > cocaine addiction. I have quite alot already but > need more. I also use appropriate body points to balance the person and treat underlying definency/excess. Cocaine in particular has an effect on the heart so I look at heart yin def/fire as well as kid yin/liv yin def. It seems to me that the heart problems show up later in life more pronounced than sometimes when doing withdrawal unless the person is at the extreme end of a large addiction problem but they will show up. I see this in a lot of people who come for other things in mid life (esp. Hep C) with histories of cocaine use/addiction. I use NADH for the withdrawal phase with additions at the same time as I do the above. I also use herbal medicine for both the withdrawal and rebalancing. I don't have a set protocol as I taylor the treatment in both frequency and the strategy to the person. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 hi, i would look at treating kid & liv yin deficiency. in adition i would treat with lots of water to drink especially large quantities every morning to flush the body clean & help build up yin energy. anand --- Doc <drdrdoc wrote: > Attilio, > > I've had great success using the NADA 5ndl protocol > as the basis and adding some body pts by pulse and > tongue. > > Doc > > <attiliodalberto > wrote: > > To all list members, > > I'm looking for information on the use of > acupuncture to treat > cocaine addiction. I have quite alot already but > need more. > > Can anyone help? > > Attilio > > > > True security must be rooted in true and complete > social, economic and environmental justice for > everyone everywhere with no exceptions. Anything > else is an illusion. > > > > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site > design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Doc has excellent advice. Use ear points and body points by TCM diagnosis and if you really want even better results.....then add materia medica to address issues which the needles can only briefly attend. Richard In a message dated 8/27/2003 12:40:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drdrdoc writes: > Anand, > In my experience (hundreds of cocaine addicted patients in many countries) > not all people with cocaine addiction are effected in the same way. The NADA > protocol helps with the Emotional/Mind/Body release from the drug and gives > the Pt the ability to live within their own body and mind. > Along with this a few simple points may be used. IMHO these should be chosen > by pulse and tongue exam of that patient not by a cookbook approach. > Once use has stopped and the patient is in the recovery phase Tx turns > toward rebuilding and yet musty always address the Spirit/Mind/Emotions. I find > the 5Ndl protocol useful even years after someone has kicked. > > Doc > > anand bapat <acubapat wrote: > hi, i would look at treating kid & liv yin deficiency. > in adition i would treat with lots of water to drink > especially large quantities every morning to flush the > body clean & help build up yin energy. > anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Anand, In my experience (hundreds of cocaine addicted patients in many countries) not all people with cocaine addiction are effected in the same way. The NADA protocol helps with the Emotional/Mind/Body release from the drug and gives the Pt the ability to live within their own body and mind. Along with this a few simple points may be used. IMHO these should be chosen by pulse and tongue exam of that patient not by a cookbook approach. Once use has stopped and the patient is in the recovery phase Tx turns toward rebuilding and yet musty always address the Spirit/Mind/Emotions. I find the 5Ndl protocol useful even years after someone has kicked. Doc anand bapat <acubapat wrote: hi, i would look at treating kid & liv yin deficiency. in adition i would treat with lots of water to drink especially large quantities every morning to flush the body clean & help build up yin energy. anand True security must be rooted in true and complete social, economic and environmental justice for everyone everywhere with no exceptions. Anything else is an illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 thanks i was assuming the use of herbs oops Doc acudoc11 wrote: Doc has excellent advice. Use ear points and body points by TCM diagnosis and if you really want even better results.....then add materia medica to address issues which the needles can only briefly attend. Richard In a message dated 8/27/2003 12:40:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drdrdoc writes: > Anand, > In my experience (hundreds of cocaine addicted patients in many countries) > not all people with cocaine addiction are effected in the same way. The NADA > protocol helps with the Emotional/Mind/Body release from the drug and gives > the Pt the ability to live within their own body and mind. > Along with this a few simple points may be used. IMHO these should be chosen > by pulse and tongue exam of that patient not by a cookbook approach. > Once use has stopped and the patient is in the recovery phase Tx turns > toward rebuilding and yet musty always address the Spirit/Mind/Emotions. I find > the 5Ndl protocol useful even years after someone has kicked. > > Doc > > anand bapat wrote: > hi, i would look at treating kid & liv yin deficiency. > in adition i would treat with lots of water to drink > especially large quantities every morning to flush the > body clean & help build up yin energy. > anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Hi Ken, You indicated my edition of the Art of War and Health was somewhat of a dud. Please indicate what edition or translation would be a more worthy one. Of course, I should realize that you will tell me that I would do well to use this as an excuse to develop my translation skills. I take that as a given and bow to the " clear vision " . Go easy with the zen stick as I arise to the task of meditating on your own fine texts (in English). As Jason Robertson would say, I'll take my answer off the air. Oh ... you left your jacket in the back seat of my car. Give me an address where you will be over the next week or two so I can ship it to you. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen susegmen - kenrose2008 Chinese Medicine Friday, July 25, 2003 6:32 PM [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info Z'ev, Par, and All, One of the things that caught my interest some time ago with respect to the understanding of Chinese medical terminology is the fact that several words which serve pretty basic roles in Chinese medical thinking, such as yin and yang, qi, xu and shi, to name just a very few of the most obvious and basic, actually seem to have developed their own intrinsic meanings before and outside of their usages in Chinese medicine. No doubt many might find this fact to be worthy of no more than a big ho hum as they rush on towards ever greater clinical efficacy. But I've always thought that if one wanted to develop a firm and durable grasp of the fundamentals of the subject of tradtional Chinese medicine, one should be able to get a grip on the basic meanings of the words that are used to define and describe medical ideas, the body, and its various relationships both internally and externally. Lo and behold, The Art of War is a relatively early appearance, at least in terms of the written record that has survived in some sort of verifiable tact until today, of terms like ying and wei, xu and shi, etc.; and the meanings associated with such terms in the context of warfare and military strategy have left a deep impression on Chinese medical thought. This is discussed at some length, albeit altogether superficially, in the fourth chapter of Who Can Ride the Dragon? And I'm happy to get into it to whatever extent there is interest. Perhaps it's an aspect of the study of Chinese medicine that others find dull, boring, and not pertinent to the gritty reality of the every day struggle for survival in the clinic. But I dig it. Ken PS. Attilio, you might want to play with metaphors of war and medicine related to " wind " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Hi Emmanuel, > > You indicated my edition of the Art of War and Health was somewhat of a dud. Please indicate what edition or translation would be a more worthy one. There're two separate issues here. One is that book by FLP, which is what I was saying was somewhat of a dud. The other is a good translation of the Art of War. My complaint about the FLP book is that it skims off the surface of things and doesn't get down into some of the more interesting questions that relate medical and military strategy. Because I'm being a vagabond at the moment, I can't put my hands on books to tell you what I think is a good translation of Sun Zi. But within a week I'll be in a library full of such books and will remember to post a note. > > Of course, I should realize that you will tell me that I would do well to use this as an excuse to develop my translation skills. I take that as a given and bow to the " clear vision " . Go easy with the zen stick as I arise to the task of meditating on your own fine texts (in English). As Jason Robertson would say, I'll take my answer off the air. I, myself, have been whupped with the Zen stick of late so it's pointless to ask me to go easy. I was just thinking that we should all just give up all homo sapien tongues and converse in Neanderthalese from here on out. > > Oh ... you left your jacket in the back seat of my car. Give me an address where you will be over the next week or two so I can ship it to you. Ah! I knew it was somewhere. Just hang onto it. I'll be back in your neck of the woods the second week in October. Thanks. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 All, I'm not really sure what is needed and wanted here with respect to the discussion of the meanings of terms. There is this book called A Brief History of Qi in which a collection of literary sources from across a span of nearly 3,000 years and a wide range of disciplines such as the arts, " sciences " , medicine, qi gong, martial arts, and so on are presented and discussed. By reading this book, I think folks can get a general sense of what the Chinese have had to say about qi for the past few millennia. In my own terms, I think of qi with four principal English terms: connectivity communication change movement In the clinic, in order to assess where a person's qi is at, I raise questions such as: where are there connections that ought to exist but don't? what parts of the body/mind should be in communication that aren't? what isn't changing that should be? what is no longer moving that should be gotten moving once again? and so on. Then I work to reconnect disconnected parts and sub-assemblies of the whole system; restore (or establish) communcation between parts that should be communicating; facilitate change; and encourage movement. That little formula describes upwards of 75% of everything I do in the clinic, no matter the mode of therapy in use, but mainly tuina. Anyhow, I'm happy to talk about these things with anyone who wants to. I'm contemplating a new book specifically about yin/yang in more or less the same approach as A Brief History of Qi. If someone else would take that idea and do a good job of it I would be most grateful. But it's a tough one. That would leave me more time to work on my volume dedicated to the wordless teaching. Marco, I'll try and get to your post later this evening. It pretty much blew my mind and I have to go and eat something and think about it. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Sharon, Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Ken and All, > Perhaps we could start with some factual information. > > Like when did qi first appear to come into a conceptual use in the literature and what did it replace? > > Sharon In A Brief History of Qi there is a great deal of information about the origin of the word qi, in many different contexts. According to the Shuo Wen, the oldest etymological dictionary of the Chinese language, the glyph originally meant something along the lines of the vapor that rises to form clouds. As to the date at which such a glyph-meaning configuration first emerged, I believe it is unknown and probably unknowable. All we could hope to reasonably establish is the age of artifacts, and I doubt that any would be marked with " first edition " signifcators, if you know what I mean. It's use as a term in medical parlance dates to the period of composition of the Su Wen materials, which may span several centuries from about the first century B.C. to the second or third century A.D. Paul Unschuld has commented (don't ask me for the citation as I don't have it to hand) that the term may reflect some sort of influx of Mediterranean thinking/terminology. This flux of ideas in the ancient world is a fascinating and highly complex subject. Can I ask you why you're concerned about the historicity of the term? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Marco, Your question is too huge to answer. It highlights an urgent situation in the field, which is the lack of adequate scholarship on the most fundamental topics related to the theory of Chinese medicine and, as I think I've said before, its basic terminology. Until and unless basic terms such as qi, yin/yang, wu xing, wu yun liu qi, etc. are known and thoroughly understood by a community of individuals that community will have a devilishly hard time conducting sensible conversations about the ideas and practices that are supposedly related. The real trouble is that it takes a long time, a lot of dedicated work to produce something comprehensible in English (or any other language for that matter) on the subject of yin and yang. I always challenge people to produce such text, and the fact of the matter is that few can actually do it. Why not have a new go round? Can anyone on this list tell us what yin and yang mean and are all about? What is the difference between yin/yang and good/evil? Or is there any difference? How does the notion that the only constant in the whole universe is change affect the structure and function of a multi-polar method of thinking, logic, morality, ethics and aesthetics? There's a lot to think about in order to begin to answer your question. I would need three or four years to spell it all out. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Answers from a student that like to think that he thinks, having a go, in 3-4 minutes As the questions are huge.. the answers will always be limited and never fulfilling. 3-4 years will not do... The Questions are more interesting, actually. So the " answers " I give here are suggestions, no " truths " > Can anyone on this list tell us what > yin and yang mean and are all about? Creation and change. Creation of life and death, of something happening och something changeing Rebellion towards homeostasis, towards no change, a rebellious principle? An excitement-causing-factor Action in the universe of no action, no action in the universe of action... unh... sorry... well yes: Like the hearts rythmic freqvencies... a dance... a dance... the pulse that gives light and music... .. .............. > What is the difference between yin/yang > and good/evil? One is filosophical abstract principles about the forces that cause creation, there is no judgement of what is OK and not The other is a social/cultural/religious judegment about what's ok and not ok for the time being......... or? > Or is there any difference? He he the principals have been around for some time and seems to be pretty much unchangeing!!!!??? The social judgments are forever and constantly changeing...... or? is it the opposite really??? > How does the notion that the only constant > in the whole universe is change affect > the structure and function of a multi-polar > method of thinking, logic, morality, ethics > and aesthetics? Can you take that agin.. slower please?????? > There's a lot to think about in order > to begin to answer your question. > I would need three or four years to > spell it all out. > Ken Yeah.. I think lifetimes are not enough that's the fun the answers kill the learning sometimes the questions nurture the creative thinking. Hoilger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2003 Report Share Posted September 20, 2003 Sharon, I did indeed promise to tell the story and have been telling it for several years now. I don't feel like retyping A Brief History of Qi, and it sort of sounds like that's what you are looking for. If you want to read a great essay about the systematization of knowledge in the Han, check out the intro to Original Dao by Roger Ames and D.C. Lau, if you haven't already read it. It's the single best bit on Han epistemology and philology that I've read; and it's very illuminating with respect to the comprehension of some basic ideas that figure into the formalization of medical thought in the same period. I'm not at all reluctant to " tell the story " but just wonder if in this forum it might not be better to use a more interactive format for discussion of particular points, questions, problems, etc. Ken Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi Ken, > Sometimes it can be useful in discussion that might branch off in many directions that we start with the beginning... you know... Once upon a time ... kind of start. > > In Birch and Felt, Understanding Acupuncture is quite a bit of work on the history of qi. They too start with the idea of vapour clouds. > > Also from memory, they speak that the introduction of the Qi paradigm hearld a new era; prior to this the rationalisation for illness or anything had to do with superstition... wind was literally moved by Spirit as in I think they implied what we might call ghost. So whilst superstition probably still reigns, in some thinking this concept of Qi matrix (my word) was quite revolutionary. > > The introduction of Qi into conceptual thinking, I think occured with the overall systemisation of Han periods... but I am no scholar, just a reader and you offered to tell the story..... > Sharon > - > kenrose2008 > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, September 20, 2003 3:27 AM > Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: Request for Info > > > Sharon, > > Chinese Medicine , > wrote: > > Ken and All, > > Perhaps we could start with some factual information. > > > > Like when did qi first appear to come into a conceptual use in the > literature and what did it replace? > > > > Sharon > > In A Brief History of Qi there is a great > deal of information about the origin of > the word qi, in many different contexts. > > According to the Shuo Wen, the oldest > etymological dictionary of the Chinese > language, the glyph originally meant > something along the lines of the vapor > that rises to form clouds. As to the > date at which such a glyph-meaning > configuration first emerged, I believe > it is unknown and probably unknowable. > > All we could hope to reasonably establish > is the age of artifacts, and I doubt that > any would be marked with " first edition " > signifcators, if you know what I mean. > > It's use as a term in medical parlance > dates to the period of composition of > the Su Wen materials, which may span > several centuries from about the first > century B.C. to the second or third century > A.D. Paul Unschuld has commented (don't > ask me for the citation as I don't have > it to hand) that the term may reflect > some sort of influx of Mediterranean > thinking/terminology. > > This flux of ideas in the ancient world > is a fascinating and highly complex subject. > > Can I ask you why you're concerned about > the historicity of the term? > > Ken > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 Chinese Medicine , Sharon wrote: > In Birch and Felt, Understanding Acupuncture is quite a bit of work on the history of qi. They too start with the idea of vapour clouds. > > Also from memory, they speak that the introduction of the Qi paradigm hearld a new era; prior to this the rationalisation for illness or anything had to do with superstition... wind was literally moved by Spirit as in I think they implied what we might call ghost. So whilst superstition probably still reigns, in some thinking this concept of Qi matrix (my word) was quite revolutionary. > > The introduction of Qi into conceptual thinking, I think occured with the overall systemisation of Han periods... but I am no scholar, just a reader and you offered to tell the story..... >>> Sharon: We may be seeing another major paradigm shift in the concept of " qi " now. Since no one has scientifically demonstrated the existence of qi, many authors (Kendall, Mann, etc.) say qi is no more than " air " circulating in the blood vessels. So we've gone from supersitition, to metaphysics, to [now] scientific world views of Chinese medicine. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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