Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 'As a little snap-shot into Florida.......not too long ago, I sat in the Law Office of the Florida Medical Association....where they said to our lawyers and under no uncertain terms....'that the Board of Governors (don't you just love the arrogance?) would be a cold day in hell that they would continue to allow Florida Acupuncturists to continue to call themselves Acupunctrue Physicians'. I closed my eyes, calmed the rising yang and grinned. We continued our battle and they LOST big time.' so, some folks in our profession insist that yes, we have to be called doctor. that has to mean one of two things. in one case, we would be called doctor, as is, doctorate degree or not. this is already true in florida, eh, and new mexico, and where else? 'Dr' is usually reserved for anyone who has a doctoral degree. is there a historical basis for non-physicans using this title without the accompanying degree? the other possibility is that we all earn doctorates as entry-level acupuncturists. this does not mean that i do not want to further my education, as one person insisted. as a practitioner who spends most of my acupuncture time Not doing TCM, i would rather pay for and earn that many hours in courses relevant to my career. i have met practitioners on other lists who insist that they have been studying and practicing for 20 years, and they need to be called Dr so they can best compete with MD's who have taken 300 hours of training. this sounds like simple insecurity. '...that the Board of Governors (don't you just love the arrogance?)' please explain how making a reference to the FMA's Board of Governors demonstrates arrogance? what would be a better label for their BoG? to quote one well-known auther, 'Doctor Schmoctor.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 so, some folks in our profession insist that yes, we have to be called doctor. that has to mean one of two things. in one case, we would be called doctor, as is, doctorate degree or not. this is already true in florida, eh, and new mexico, and where else? 'Dr' is usually reserved for anyone who has a doctoral degree. >>>>Actually they do not have a problem with Dr but with physician. For some reason they fight all other professions who try to use this title, including other western types Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 In a message dated 8/23/03 6:16:28 AM, healthworks writes: <<so, some folks in our profession insist that yes, we have to be called doctor. that has to mean one of two things. in one case, we would be called doctor, as is, doctorate degree or not. this is already true in florida, eh, and new mexico, and where else? 'Dr' is usually reserved for anyone who has a doctoral degree. >> Have to be called doctor? Wow! Not sure where you practice this healing art but here in Florida we ARE 'primary healthcrae providers' and that MEANS what it says regarding healthcare. << is there a historical basis for non-physicans using this title without the accompanying degree?>> Wow again! Non-physicians? DO you really mean non-allopaths? Let's use correct terminology. Neither the word 'physician or doctor' means what you think it means. And they certainly can mean either or one of several perspectives. 1) legislated TITLE which it is here in Florida. 2) doctorate degree such as in PhD 3) basic entry level 'docotor' degree such as in medical doctor, doctor of chiropractic etc. They are general words that could mean MANY or severeal of these perspectives and it depends on one's laws in their state and the conditions. << the other possibility is that we all earn doctorates as entry-level acupuncturists. >> Again it depends on what your state's level of education is.....are you a technician in acupuncture needling which is by far NOT a doctor? Or are you well trained in the majority of Oriental medicine which is DEFINITELY a doctor? This is not semantics but a reality of what you are trained in. Are the 5 needle N.A.D.A. detox specialists acupuncturists? I think not by a long shot. <<this does not mean that i do not want to further my education, as one person insisted. as a practitioner who spends most of my acupuncture time Not doing TCM, i would rather pay for and earn that many hours in courses relevant to my career.>> If YOU choose to be 'needle technician' - that is your choice and no one says you can not. And no one should restrict you. On the other hand......that kind of thinking should NOT restrict others who wish to practice ALL of oriental medicine as a 'doctor'. This is why someday we will create a separation in positions for those who wish NOT to take on the responsibility of primary care provider. Such as......simply 'just an acupuncturist' versus a Doctor of Oriental Medicine. That's perfectly OK. We don;t forced you to be something you don't wish to be WHILE you don't restrict those who ARE doctors of OM. <<i have met practitioners on other lists who insist that they have been studying and practicing for 20 years, and they need to be called Dr so they can best compete with MD's who have taken 300 hours of training. this sounds like simple insecurity. >> Yes, that's very true. '...that the Board of Governors (don't you just love the arrogance?)' please explain how making a reference to the FMA's Board of Governors demonstrates arrogance? what would be a better label for their BoG?>> Board of Directors is more the common accepted name for that function....NOT Board of Governors. It's an attitude difference. <<to quote one well-known auther, 'Doctor Schmoctor.'>> In the world of what might be considered reality.....if all it ever is is 'doctor-schmocter' then WHY should anyone give credence to an MD and call them 'doctor'? Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 And I might add...that EVERTIME they have fought the use of 'physician' which DOES NOT mean Medical Docotr...they have LOST. Such as Chiropractice Physician.....such as the HUGE battle in Florida with Acupuncture Physician. Bot the title 'doctor' and/or 'physician' does NOT mean medical doctor and they have NO property right to it...so it seems to always come back to their insistance of arrogance of ego. They have entitlement to ONE title....and that is MEDICAL DOCTOR. That should suffice for their important differentiation. But NOT the general category of doctor/physician. Richard In a message dated 8/23/03 12:20:06 PM, alonmarcus writes: << so, some folks in our profession insist that yes, we have to be called doctor. that has to mean one of two things. in one case, we would be called doctor, as is, doctorate degree or not. this is already true in florida, eh, and new mexico, and where else? 'Dr' is usually reserved for anyone who has a doctoral degree. >>>>Actually they do not have a problem with Dr but with physician. For some reason they fight all other professions who try to use this title, including other western types Alon >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 EVERTIME they have fought the use of 'physician' which DOES NOT mean Medical Docotr... >>>>In CA LAc are listed as physician in Work comp system Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 In a message dated 8/24/03 3:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, acudoc11 writes: <practitioners on other lists who insist that they have been studying and practicing for 20 years, and they need to be called Dr so they can best compete with MD's who have taken 300 hours of training. this sounds like simple insecurity. >> Yes, that's very true. Hi, As a practitioner with 20years of practice and over 12years of study not including continuing education weekend seminars including acupuncture, herbal medicine (both oriental and western), and nutritional medicine (both oriental and western), who wants to be able to use the Dr. thing so that 1) more patients can get reimbursement in a system which pays for Dr.'s who do acupuncture and that means Dr.'s who have 350 hours of training and 2) get patients to be more comfortable about following our advice and feeling comfortable because they have been conditioned to the title Dr. and not the experience or knowledge they are being given and maybe to get the validation of the years I have put into study and practice, I definitely disagree with the above statement. They are real life considerations that affect us and our patients and need to be considered as has been previously mentioned. I have a very good relationship with the physicians here and a good reputation but I do see that there are real issues that diminish our practice and the real value it can have. I did not want to say a lot because this discussion has gone on a lot and I had hoped to move toward more of a discussion about how to apply TCM but I couldn't totally resist this statement. Lets work toward cooperation and at the same time protect our field and work toward the status that we deserve while working to bridge the gap between us and our allopathic brothers and sisters. There are some excellent allopathic doctors who do take the full 3year course (now 4 yrs) and then practice. There is one here and I totally support this!! The others Dr. in this town who is acupuncture " certified " has 350 hours of training and when he gives a lecture on his " medical acupuncture " he has to hold up the Shanghai ( " Notes " ) textbook and opens the page and tells people how he looked up using a point for a back problem while the patient was there and how a " miracle " happen and the pain was gone. This same person gets $90.00 for adding a few needles during a visit which he bills the private insurance for in addition to the office visit for western medicine. He also tells people that acupuncture cannot help them when he doesn't know how to do the right dx and tx. He does also sometimes refer out. This is what I mean. People here don't get that certified means not much training and also they go for the term medical acupuncture (which really doesn't exist) but mostly they go because he bills their private/HMO insurance. I don't know about Medicare but I don't think in NY they pay for acupuncture period. I am hesitate to write this because I feel like it's beating a dead horse but I guess I needed to add my 2 cents worth. I would love to discuss cases that people are having trouble with. Namaste! Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Bobbi I applaud you for your comments and I know very well how this feels like 'beating that old dead horse'.....the only problem it's not a horse and it ain't dead. All we really want to do is get back to what we are here for, as in helping people yet there are some who unfortunately want to over control what and how we do that and especially limit us on receiving appropriate recognition and non discriminated payment for our services. As I may have commented before.....The Wall Street Journal OnLine in conjucntion with Harris Interactive (Harris Poll) published a National Survey revealing TOP INDICATORS of Quality healthcare. The PRIME driving factor over-all is whether or not insurance covers it. Unfortunately people opt for many invasive procedures because it is covered. Insanity - most likely an astouding YES....but that's the system and struggle must be made to change the system. Without struggle.....just trying to get along or being nice....will never affect any changes. As posted to the AOMNC website " John Jay Chapman......People who love soft methods and hate iniquity.......forget.......that reform consists in agressively taking the bone from the dog. Philosophy will never accomplish the task. " Are there ANY questions left at to why the profession is stiffled from having it's long overdue entry-level real-doctor degree as opposed to non-PhD-doctoral research degree or 'in-between' masters degree? Any questions left as to why certain organizations within and from without our profession continually BLOCK access to full billing capabilities based upon state by state legal scope of practice? Anyone getting the picture YET? This is a reoccurring theme eventing over the last thirty years and as I said.....the horse 'ain't dead'. As a good friend reminded me this morning of a semi-famous writing from a book or play........where the King says...... " who will rid the kingdom? " For the many who simply sit by and wait for the problem to go away by itself will find out when it is too late that it only leads to more of the same 'over control' if not worse. Richard In a message dated 8/24/2003 9:13:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobbiaqua writes: > Subj: Re: acupuncture 'physicians' > 8/24/2003 9:13:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " bobbiaqua " >bobbiaqua</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine </A> > <A HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine </A> > > In a message dated 8/24/03 3:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > acudoc11 > writes: > <practitioners on other lists who insist that they have been studying and > practicing for 20 years, and they need to be called Dr so they can best > compete with MD's who have taken 300 hours of training. this sounds like > simple insecurity. >> > > Yes, that's very true. > Hi, > > As a practitioner with 20years of practice and over 12years of study not > including continuing education weekend seminars including acupuncture, > herbal > medicine (both oriental and western), and nutritional medicine (both > oriental and > western), who wants to be able to use the Dr. thing so that 1) more patients > > can get reimbursement in a system which pays for Dr.'s who do acupuncture > and > that means Dr.'s who have 350 hours of training and 2) get patients to be > more > comfortable about following our advice and feeling comfortable because they > have been conditioned to the title Dr. and not the experience or knowledge > they > are being given and maybe to get the validation of the years I have put into > > study and practice, I definitely disagree with the above statement. > > They are real life considerations that affect us and our patients and need > to > be considered as has been previously mentioned. I have a very good > relationship with the physicians here and a good reputation but I do see > that there are > real issues that diminish our practice and the real value it can have. I did > > not want to say a lot because this discussion has gone on a lot and I had > hoped > to move toward more of a discussion about how to apply TCM but I couldn't > totally resist this statement. Lets work toward cooperation and at the same > time > protect our field and work toward the status that we deserve while working > to > bridge the gap between us and our allopathic brothers and sisters. There are > > some excellent allopathic doctors who do take the full 3year course (now 4 > yrs) > and then practice. There is one here and I totally support this!! The others > > Dr. in this town who is acupuncture " certified " has 350 hours of training > and > when he gives a lecture on his " medical acupuncture " he has to hold up the > Shanghai ( " Notes " ) textbook and opens the page and tells people how he > looked up > using a point for a back problem while the patient was there and how a > " miracle " happen and the pain was gone. This same person gets $90.00 for > adding a few > needles during a visit which he bills the private insurance for in addition > to the office visit for western medicine. He also tells people that > acupuncture > cannot help them when he doesn't know how to do the right dx and tx. He does > > also sometimes refer out. This is what I mean. People here don't get that > certified means not much training and also they go for the term medical > acupuncture (which really doesn't exist) but mostly they go because he bills > their > private/HMO insurance. I don't know about Medicare but I don't think in NY > they pay > for acupuncture period. > > I am hesitate to write this because I feel like it's beating a dead horse > but > I guess I needed to add my 2 cents worth. > > I would love to discuss cases that people are having trouble with. > > Namaste! > > Bobbi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.