Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Terry wrote: > " All this ranting and raving about the crimes committed by > weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely misplaced " I appreciate your call to reason in pointing out that not all allopaths are contrarians when it comes to acupuncture. I agree. However, the concerns expressed here are not wholly paranoid, either. Unfortunately, I have heard more stories than I care to recount of patients seeking acupuncture, thinking they will get the best care from an MD (as MD's are the " go to " folks in many peoples' belief system) and then having less than satisfactory experiences ... and in some cases very poor experiences. Some of these patients, in turn, thinking they have experienced what CM has to offer therefore discount it. There are quite a few MD's working in America today that seem to think they know acupuncture from a few weekend workshops. The WM arrogance that has been sited in this group, while not across the board, is not conjured. This is something I have personally witnessed. It is a concern for the danger to patients and the misrepresentation of the medicine that I feel many on this list are expressing (with undoubted variation in emphasis and attitude). There is plenty of gray in this debate, but that isn't to say black and white do not exist. 2 cents more: Just to remark upon a previously mentioned thread .... I do not believe pushing for a doctoral first degree for acupuncturists is the answer. There are many fine healers possessing master degrees. To force practitioners to be OMD's would be to discriminate against minority traditions (as TCM has rapidly become the standard as opposed to 5E, Japanese, Korean to name a few), to weed out the economically challenged (even more so than present) and to basically exclude many fine people from offering their healing talents. I say, make the CM doctorate available but make it sequential to a master degree. Some " CMers " are in such a pressured state to gain status and respect in the medical structure that we run the risk of cutting off our own noses. I feel, over time, we can gain the desired respect by how we engage the medicine, by how we treat our peers and patients and, last but not least, by the results. be well, Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 (as MD's are the " go to " folks in many peoples' belief system) and then having less than satisfactory experiences ... and in some cases very poor experiences. Some of these patients, in turn, thinking they have experienced what CM has to offer therefore discount it. There are quite a few MD's working in America today that seem to think they know acupuncture from a few weekend workshops. >>>>And i get this every day about other LAc's and i am sure some of my patients say the same to other LAcs. So what Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 In a message dated 8/22/2003 6:50:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: > (as MD's are the " go to " folks in many > peoples' belief system) and then having less than satisfactory experiences > ... and > in some cases very poor experiences. Some of these patients, in turn, > thinking > they have experienced what CM has to offer therefore discount it. There are > quite a few MD's working in America today that seem to think they know > acupuncture from a few weekend workshops. > >>>>And i get this every day about other LAc's and i am sure some of my > patients say the same to other LAcs. So what > Alon Sure, it happens but I think you are missing the overall point being made. With all due respect, Alon, the difference is comprehension (gained via education and proper training). While I may not share the attitude or approach of some posting on this thread, I do believe that some very valid points are being made. MD's cannot possibly absorb CM in a few weekends, no matter what their intentions, be they good or otherwise. It is a completely different approach warranting more engagement than the occasional 16 hour jab in order to practice it with any sophistication. Seems the point has been made and remade on this list. So, I will forgo any continued redundancy. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 In a message dated 8/23/2003 9:06:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: > I think we need to do the same as every other profession and try to protect > as much of the pie as we can. I am not sure we need a war however. We don't > need to cloak it in invalid rhetorical arguments as well.If Richard is going > to be successful in his attempts i will be glad for it. I however prefer to > work on corporation, on expanding our scope of practice to include all the > modern aspects of our practice as it is done in China. I know there are many > forces that would try to stand in our way, the question is what is the best > strategy in the long run. If we are to work in hospital settings we can pursue a > scorched ground tactics, cutting off all our possible contacts. The type of > rhetorical arguments we are hearing does just that > Alon, I hear what you are saying. However, please do not misconstrue my conceding one point as being in complete agreement with the entirety of Richard's comments. I feel I have attempted to be clear about this. It is a common glitch when communicating online. It seems to happen often. If someone agrees with one aspect of someone else's commentary, all sorts of other motives/attitudes are assumed. I have spoken to the need for communication and cooperation. I said I do not believe all MD's to be sinister. And I have said we need to conduct ourselves in a manner that helps to build respect (and thereby build relations). I also related some of what has been shared with me by patients. There is value in considering such concerns with other information. I don't feel I am telling stories to falsely bolster a position, simply sharing an experience that I feel speaks to a point being made. There is quite a difference. I do not believe " scorched ground tactics, cutting off all our possible contacts " is a healthy path for our profession, either. But then, I have never suggested such a thing. There is great value in being truthful about what we perceive to be happening in our profession ... but therein lies the challenge. Perceptions (and positions) seem to vary greatly. All I can say is, I have attempted to keep my speech even and clear so as to avoid anything resembling a contrarian poke to bickering. It has never been my intention .... nor has it been to paint with a broad brush a characterization WM. I spell this out as I would like to be considered based upon what I have actually said and not the words and attitudes of others posting before me. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 I do believe that some very valid points are being made. MD's cannot possibly absorb CM in a few weekends, no matter what their intentions, be they good or otherwise. >>>> i never said they can. The question is about practicing the technique of acup not understanding TCM. It takes many more years than our 3-4 year programs to understand CM.Now don't take me wrong, I think we need to do the same as every other profession and try to protect as much of the pie as we can. I am not sure we need a war however. We don't need to cloak it in invalid rhetorical arguments as well.If Richard is going to be successful in his attempts i will be glad for it. I however prefer to work on corporation, on expanding our scope of practice to include all the modern aspects of our practice as it is done in China. I know there are many forces that would try to stand in our way, the question is what is the best strategy in the long run. If we are to work in hospital settings we can pursue a scorched ground tactics, cutting off all our possible contacts. The type of rhetorical arguments we are hearing does just that Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 hi maya, very well put. i agree totally. but the majority are usurping the trust placed by cm practitioners. we also get the raw end of the stick by pts going to md for advise rather than being educated in the fact that cm are the best people fro that sort of medicine. how do we sort that out anand --- YinTangSong wrote: > > Terry wrote: > > " All this ranting and raving about the crimes > committed by > > weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely > misplaced " > > I appreciate your call to reason in pointing out > that not all allopaths are > contrarians when it comes to acupuncture. I agree. > However, the concerns > expressed here are not wholly paranoid, either. > Unfortunately, I have heard more > stories than I care to recount of patients seeking > acupuncture, thinking they > will get the best care from an MD (as MD's are the > " go to " folks in many > peoples' belief system) and then having less than > satisfactory experiences ... and > in some cases very poor experiences. Some of these > patients, in turn, thinking > they have experienced what CM has to offer therefore > discount it. There are > quite a few MD's working in America today that seem > to think they know > acupuncture from a few weekend workshops. The WM > arrogance that has been sited in this > group, while not across the board, is not conjured. > This is something I have > personally witnessed. It is a concern for the danger > to patients and the > misrepresentation of the medicine that I feel many > on this list are expressing (with > undoubted variation in emphasis and attitude). > There is plenty of gray in > this debate, but that isn't to say black and white > do not exist. > > 2 cents more: > Just to remark upon a previously mentioned thread > .... I do not believe > pushing for a doctoral first degree for > acupuncturists is the answer. There are > many fine healers possessing master degrees. To > force practitioners to be OMD's > would be to discriminate against minority traditions > (as TCM has rapidly > become the standard as opposed to 5E, Japanese, > Korean to name a few), to weed out > the economically challenged (even more so than > present) and to basically > exclude many fine people from offering their healing > talents. I say, make the CM > doctorate available but make it sequential to a > master degree. Some " CMers " > are in such a pressured state to gain status and > respect in the medical > structure that we run the risk of cutting off our > own noses. I feel, over time, we > can gain the desired respect by how we engage the > medicine, by how we treat our > peers and patients and, last but not least, by the > results. > > be well, > Maya > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 hi alon, what i think you may not have allowed for is the fact that in china we can afford to have integration because cM will never die. every patient, person knows about CM . they talk CM, think CM. so when they go & have WM treatment they are doing so as they are educated. by the way WM is trying to establish their pathy in the hearts of the chinese. its completely different in our circle of us, uk, canada, & the rest of the world. the people know only WM. to them WM doctor is GOD. so whtever he/she says is gospel. unde this banner & thinking if we cloud our CM knowledge in poor hands we are poorer for our actions. we will thenhave to repay over the years for the lost cause. i can see in australia already we are paying for the actions of last 20 eyasr. we now have physios, doctors, & all other practitioners permitted to do acupuncture after ashort course. so the process is going to go on till we are killed off as a profession. please look at the warning signs. its the politics that will kill us off & the same people who are good natured will sit on the side lines & repent. but unfortunately repentance will not bring it CM back to the people. so please review your experiences & open your eyes wide to the grand larceny happenening around us. anand --- YinTangSong wrote: > In a message dated 8/23/2003 9:06:56 AM Pacific > Standard Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > > > I think we need to do the same as every other > profession and try to protect > > as much of the pie as we can. I am not sure we > need a war however. We don't > > need to cloak it in invalid rhetorical arguments > as well.If Richard is going > > to be successful in his attempts i will be glad > for it. I however prefer to > > work on corporation, on expanding our scope of > practice to include all the > > modern aspects of our practice as it is done in > China. I know there are many > > forces that would try to stand in our way, the > question is what is the best > > strategy in the long run. If we are to work in > hospital settings we can pursue a > > scorched ground tactics, cutting off all our > possible contacts. The type of > > rhetorical arguments we are hearing does just that > > > > Alon, > > I hear what you are saying. However, please do not > misconstrue my conceding > one point as being in complete agreement with the > entirety of Richard's > comments. I feel I have attempted to be clear about > this. It is a common glitch > when communicating online. It seems to happen often. > If someone agrees with one > aspect of someone else's commentary, all sorts of > other motives/attitudes are > assumed. I have spoken to the need for communication > and cooperation. I said > I do not believe all MD's to be sinister. And I > have said we need to conduct > ourselves in a manner that helps to build respect > (and thereby build > relations). I also related some of what has been > shared with me by patients. There is > value in considering such concerns with other > information. I don't feel I am > telling stories to falsely bolster a position, > simply sharing an experience > that I feel speaks to a point being made. There is > quite a difference. > > I do not believe " scorched ground tactics, cutting > off all our possible > contacts " is a healthy path for our profession, > either. But then, I have never > suggested such a thing. There is great value in > being truthful about what we > perceive to be happening in our profession ... but > therein lies the challenge. > Perceptions (and positions) seem to vary greatly. > All I can say is, I have > attempted to keep my speech even and clear so as to > avoid anything resembling a > contrarian poke to bickering. It has never been my > intention .... nor has it > been to paint with a broad brush a characterization > WM. > > I spell this out as I would like to be considered > based upon what I have > actually said and not the words and attitudes of > others posting before me. > > Maya > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 you are already aware of the problem. the solution is to educate the people & the doctors on the role of CM & not give them half baked knowledge to practise from. anand --- YinTangSong wrote: > In a message dated 8/22/2003 6:50:09 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > > > (as MD's are the " go to " folks in many > > peoples' belief system) and then having less than > satisfactory experiences > > ... and > > in some cases very poor experiences. Some of these > patients, in turn, > > thinking > > they have experienced what CM has to offer > therefore discount it. There are > > quite a few MD's working in America today that > seem to think they know > > acupuncture from a few weekend workshops. > > >>>>And i get this every day about other LAc's and > i am sure some of my > > patients say the same to other LAcs. So what > > Alon > > Sure, it happens but I think you are missing the > overall point being made. > With all due respect, Alon, the difference is > comprehension (gained via > education and proper training). While I may not > share the attitude or approach of > some posting on this thread, I do believe that some > very valid points are being > made. MD's cannot possibly absorb CM in a few > weekends, no matter what their > intentions, be they good or otherwise. It is a > completely different approach > warranting more engagement than the occasional 16 > hour jab in order to practice > it with any sophistication. Seems the point has > been made and remade on this > list. So, I will forgo any continued redundancy. > > Maya > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 It would be really helpful if we could all apply the principles of our art to this discussion. We were taught to look at true causes and not get caught up in the symptoms. We were taught to make a differential diagnosis based on imformation we gather. We were taught to define things consisely. IMHO The problem with the the Health Care System - AKA the patient - is not in the turf war against us but goes to the core issues of a for profit patient procccessing system. It is not with the Allopathic Physicians individually (they make up my second largest referal base.) that i have the problem it is with the AMA - and its' kin in other nations. A recent article stated that the AMA represents less than half of all US MDs. Doc Rosen .. anand bapat <acubapat wrote: hi alon, what i think you may not have allowed for is the fact that in china we can afford to have integration because cM will never die. every patient, person knows about CM . they talk CM, think CM. so when they go & have WM treatment they are doing so as they are educated. by the way WM is trying to establish their <Snip> True security must be rooted in true and complete social, economic and environmental justice for everyone everywhere with no exceptions. Anything else is an illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Good question vanessa.....I believe it is NO ONE. And the more in-line figures for that organization has been said as low as 170,000 out of 600,000+ and by those figures that is about 28% which is normal for the primary association. Richard In a message dated 8/24/03 2:34:09 AM, vbirang writes: << Who represent the rest of the other half ?? ) Vanessa > A recent article stated that the AMA represents > less than half of all US MDs. > > Doc Rosen > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Alon continues to refer to rhetoric....while I respond and refer to the real world. It is agreed......some like Alon SHOULD in fact work in cooperation with the allopaths while others should NOT in the political sense (even though on a personal level I do all the time). I refer and receive many referral from the non-controlling everyday good MD practitioners. This can be referred to as 'good guy - bad guy' routine. In the end.....we can obtain the best of both worlds...and just MAYBE someday AP/OM will have it's stand-alone collaborative medical system in the US...but don't bet on it UNLESS we force it and more importantly let's NOT be naieve into totally trusting that to happen. Same goes for anywhere in the world. I gather such problems exist not only in England but elsewhere in Europe etc. Richard In a message dated 8/23/03 12:07:11 PM, alonmarcus writes: << I do believe that some very valid points are being made. MD's cannot possibly absorb CM in a few weekends, no matter what their intentions, be they good or otherwise. >>>> i never said they can. The question is about practicing the technique of acup not understanding TCM. It takes many more years than our 3-4 year programs to understand CM.Now don't take me wrong, I think we need to do the same as every other profession and try to protect as much of the pie as we can. I am not sure we need a war however. We don't need to cloak it in invalid rhetorical arguments as well.If Richard is going to be successful in his attempts i will be glad for it. I however prefer to work on corporation, on expanding our scope of practice to include all the modern aspects of our practice as it is done in China. I know there are many forces that would try to stand in our way, the question is what is the best strategy in the long run. If we are to work in hospital settings we can pursue a scorched ground tactics, cutting off all our possible contacts. The type of rhetorical arguments we are hearing does just that Alon >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Who represent the rest of the other half ?? ) Vanessa > A recent article stated that the AMA represents > less than half of all US MDs. > > Doc Rosen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Doc wrote; >> A recent article stated that the AMA represents less than half of all US MDs.<< Vanessa Wrote; >Who represent the rest of the other half ?? ) < Doc answers: Various and sundry groups among them PSR and some still extant MCHR chapters i would surmise. > True security must be rooted in true and complete social, economic and environmental justice for everyone everywhere with no exceptions. Anything else is an illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 have WM treatment they are doing so as they are educated. by the way WM is trying to establish their pathy in the hearts of the chinese. its completely different in our circle of us, uk, canada, & the rest of the world. the people know only WM. to them WM doctor is GOD. so whtever he/she says is gospel. >>>>May be CA is a different planet but there is no danger of CM disappearing. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 I spell this out as I would like to be considered based upon what I have actually said and not the words and attitudes of others posting before me. Maya >>>>>I can appreciate this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 ALON MARCUS have WM treatment they are doing so as they are educated. by the way WM is trying to establish their pathy in the hearts of the chinese. its completely different in our circle of us, uk, canada, & the rest of the world. the people know only WM. to them WM doctor is GOD. so whtever he/she says is gospel. >>>>May be CA is a different planet but there is no danger of CM disappearing. Alon Alon, I'd agree with you on both counts. CA is a different planet, and CM will never die here. I moved to the East Bay from San Francisco a couple of years ago but still visit five different Chinese business districts and one Japanese business district in SF regularly. Here near Berkeley and El Cerrito I visit the Pacific East Mall (Da Hua to the Chinese) almost every day as it's walking distance from my home. Kris Yang's BioEssence is just across the freeway from me. I missed the Oakland Chinatown's Streetfest this last Sunday. You and I are waiguorens in this place. WM and Western science flourish here with lots of Nobel Prize winners, but they also just co-exists here as well. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Pacific East Mall >>>Great restaurants, especially the Thai Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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