Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Dear All, As a licensed psychologist, as well as someone deeply interested in clinical acupuncture, it seems that there has been an overly obsessive and paranoid reaction on the part of many acupuncturist toward the medical profession. Most MDs have not taken any courses on acupuncture, thus for a physician to take several weekend courses on the topic seems like a good thing, not a horrible thing. There are still many MDs opposed to acupuncture, labeling it quack medicine, but there are a growing number of MDs who are open to its potential benefits. When they take these weekend courses, the MDs do not immediately conclude that they are just as experienced in the procedure as someone who has had several years of training at an acupuncture school. Several of them go ahead and do the full 2 - 3 year training to obtain their LAc as well as their MD license. Most of them just learn about the types of conditions that they may refer to an LAc for acupuncture treatment. All this ranting and raving about the crimes committed by weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely misplaced. There are some bad doctors out there, but most of them are rather caring health care professionals. There is a real reason for righteous anger. Not enough has been done to bridge the gap between different health care professions, to bring greater Taoist harmony to the warring medical factions. Such a pursuit would require acupuncturists, who represent the new therapy on the block, to make congenial overtures to members of the medical establishment, who currently hold the power in American medicine. One may resent that MDs hold the power, one may resent that Western Medicine can be overly arrogant in thinking that they know everything, but at the end of the day, it will serve our needs to work with them, not against them. If one looks at the history of medicine in both the Far East and in the West, such has always been the case. So, while still allowing that righteous rage has its usefulness, the practice of Buddhist compassion might serve the acupuncture community better. And for those Christians who have learned acupuncture, remember, they (MDs) " know not what they do " when they remain ignorant of the qi life force that is the true source of healing. Our job is to bring them enlightenment. Terry Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:06 AM Chinese Medicine Digest Number 138 For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Well spoken Matt My yang political nature is balanced by yin treatments. For me.....acupuncture needles and electro acupuncture are yang treatments...yet I use BaGuaFa (modern synergized methods developed by me utilizing both GuaSha (frictional scraping system) and BaGuan (empty cups) together) are the most yin treatments one could administer. Also - there are already way too many who have the yin attitude in the political arena with practical no one with the yang attitude. Many already consider it a huge positive that someone with a yang position exists to fill the huge gap. And that is not to say that the yin attitudes are wrong. We should realize and remember who the controlling interest within the allopathic community consists of.......and those are not the everday MDs who are our friends. Those have very little to say. The FEW who control the MD association(s) are the problem. Richard > Subj: Re: Digest Number 138 > 8/22/03 2:33:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " acu.guy " >acu.guy</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine </A> > <A HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine </A> > Sent from the Internet > > IMO, the fighting spirit Richard advocates strikes me as a yang quality > while the cooperative bridge Terry advocates is more a yin quality. In Chapter 28 > of the Tao Teh Ching, Lao Tzu said " Know that you possess the strong > masculine (yang) principle, yet abide by the meek feminine (yin) principal. " Then, > in Chapter 43 - " The softest of all things can overcome the hardest of all > things. " We should, I think, look for a balance of both approaches, perhaps > favoring the yin as the underlying principal. > > Matt Bauer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 IMO, the fighting spirit Richard advocates strikes me as a yang quality while the cooperative bridge Terry advocates is more a yin quality. In Chapter 28 of the Tao Teh Ching, Lao Tzu said " Know that you possess the strong masculine (yang) principle, yet abide by the meek feminine (yin) principal. " Then, in Chapter 43 - " The softest of all things can overcome the hardest of all things. " We should, I think, look for a balance of both approaches, perhaps favoring the yin as the underlying principal. Matt Bauer - Terry Oleson Chinese Medicine Friday, August 22, 2003 8:51 AM RE: Digest Number 138 Dear All, As a licensed psychologist, as well as someone deeply interested in clinical acupuncture, it seems that there has been an overly obsessive and paranoid reaction on the part of many acupuncturist toward the medical profession. Most MDs have not taken any courses on acupuncture, thus for a physician to take several weekend courses on the topic seems like a good thing, not a horrible thing. There are still many MDs opposed to acupuncture, labeling it quack medicine, but there are a growing number of MDs who are open to its potential benefits. When they take these weekend courses, the MDs do not immediately conclude that they are just as experienced in the procedure as someone who has had several years of training at an acupuncture school. Several of them go ahead and do the full 2 - 3 year training to obtain their LAc as well as their MD license. Most of them just learn about the types of conditions that they may refer to an LAc for acupuncture treatment. All this ranting and raving about the crimes committed by weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely misplaced. There are some bad doctors out there, but most of them are rather caring health care professionals. There is a real reason for righteous anger. Not enough has been done to bridge the gap between different health care professions, to bring greater Taoist harmony to the warring medical factions. Such a pursuit would require acupuncturists, who represent the new therapy on the block, to make congenial overtures to members of the medical establishment, who currently hold the power in American medicine. One may resent that MDs hold the power, one may resent that Western Medicine can be overly arrogant in thinking that they know everything, but at the end of the day, it will serve our needs to work with them, not against them. If one looks at the history of medicine in both the Far East and in the West, such has always been the case. So, while still allowing that righteous rage has its usefulness, the practice of Buddhist compassion might serve the acupuncture community better. And for those Christians who have learned acupuncture, remember, they (MDs) " know not what they do " when they remain ignorant of the qi life force that is the true source of healing. Our job is to bring them enlightenment. Terry Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:06 AM Chinese Medicine Digest Number 138 For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:46:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, acu.guy writes: > Let us also not forget - the scientists were once the David against the > Golieth of the Chruch. If ever our profession were to grow into a position of > power, we would be susceptible to the same corruption every other powerful > institution has succumbed to. I appreciate everyone who works to help spread > this gentle effective therapy. We may disagree on how to best do this, but > should keep working on how to work out our internal disputes so we can be more > effective. I completely agree with you Matt. Well said. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Matt You are correct....but don;t forget in many US states the PTs work for the MDs. They can not do anything unless they get an Rx from the MD. If the MDs can control acupuncture they can place anyone under their control to do the work. A surgeon once told me that he could actually get away with bringing in from the street a 'homeless' person, put him in the operating room, and have him assist and never be challenged. Richard > > Thanks Maya and Richard - Regarding this thread, I would have to say I am > more concerned about the possibility of Physical Therapists trying to get > control of acupuncture than M.D.s. > Matt Bauer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Matt This would be fine and I agree. One question though... WHY do those who disagree wish so vehemently try to prohibit those who are trying to gain the power for the profession? I do not try to prohibit anyone from their path...even those who wish to be nicey-nice to the MDs....so WHY do they wish to prohibit me from mine not that it will stop me? There is ONLY one answer which is blatantly obvious and that's why it is such a problem in resolving these kind of so-called internal disputes. They want what they want (just like an egotistical child does) and at the same time to stop all others and that is untenable behaviour. Disagree - fine and we will continue to go each of our ways. My path has and is continuing to produce results for the profession in the US. I'd like to see others who have oppositional opinions to show us all what they have produced for the good of the 'qualified' practitioners. I will let you all in on a little advance knowledge. I have been working for over three years on a class action anti-trust suit against one of the major insurance companies. It has been a very difficult road and we were still nowhere. On Wednesday, we shifted gears and now will tie into a huge lawsuit against ALL the major insurance carriers. And this is for the benefit of all independant and primary care 'qualified acupuncturists' in the United States who are members of my organization called Acupuncture & Oreintal Medicine National Coalition (AOMNC). Karma has a very interesting way of working. AOMNC is already the largest national acupuncture organization in the US and for sure when this hits the streets (should be filed by next Friday), we will be the largest acupunctur eorganization ever immaginable. Others only claim to be the spokes organizations for the profession. See I don't just talk empty talk.....I walk the walk and produce the real results. When I get where I am going...acupuncture and it's qualified practitioners in the United States will BE respected and reimbursed for their services on a well-paid basis. Richard > Richard said > > " We should realize and remember who the controlling interest within the > allopathic community consists of.......and those are not the everday MDs who > are our > friends. Those have very little to say. The FEW who control the MD > association(s) are the problem. " > > IMO - the few who wish to control the many have been the problem since the > age of the pyramids. Let us also not forget - the scientists were once the > David against the Golieth of the Chruch. If ever our profession were to grow > into a position of power, we would be susceptible to the same corruption every > other powerful institution has succumbed to. I appreciate everyone who works > to help spread this gentle effective therapy. We may disagree on how to best > do this, but should keep working on how to work out our internal disputes so > we can be more effective. > > Matt Bauer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Richard said " We should realize and remember who the controlling interest within the allopathic community consists of.......and those are not the everday MDs who are our friends. Those have very little to say. The FEW who control the MD association(s) are the problem. " IMO - the few who wish to control the many have been the problem since the age of the pyramids. Let us also not forget - the scientists were once the David against the Golieth of the Chruch. If ever our profession were to grow into a position of power, we would be susceptible to the same corruption every other powerful institution has succumbed to. I appreciate everyone who works to help spread this gentle effective therapy. We may disagree on how to best do this, but should keep working on how to work out our internal disputes so we can be more effective. Matt Bauer - acudoc11 Chinese Medicine Friday, August 22, 2003 2:13 PM Re: Digest Number 138 Well spoken Matt My yang political nature is balanced by yin treatments. For me.....acupuncture needles and electro acupuncture are yang treatments...yet I use BaGuaFa (modern synergized methods developed by me utilizing both GuaSha (frictional scraping system) and BaGuan (empty cups) together) are the most yin treatments one could administer. Also - there are already way too many who have the yin attitude in the political arena with practical no one with the yang attitude. Many already consider it a huge positive that someone with a yang position exists to fill the huge gap. And that is not to say that the yin attitudes are wrong. We should realize and remember who the controlling interest within the allopathic community consists of.......and those are not the everday MDs who are our friends. Those have very little to say. The FEW who control the MD association(s) are the problem. Richard > Subj: Re: Digest Number 138 > 8/22/03 2:33:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " acu.guy " >acu.guy</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine </A> > <A HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine </A> > Sent from the Internet > > IMO, the fighting spirit Richard advocates strikes me as a yang quality > while the cooperative bridge Terry advocates is more a yin quality. In Chapter 28 > of the Tao Teh Ching, Lao Tzu said " Know that you possess the strong > masculine (yang) principle, yet abide by the meek feminine (yin) principal. " Then, > in Chapter 43 - " The softest of all things can overcome the hardest of all > things. " We should, I think, look for a balance of both approaches, perhaps > favoring the yin as the underlying principal. > > Matt Bauer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 I understand your post , but we need to deal one thing at the time and for now those in the Western medicine are the ones trying to control all medicines and felling thatthey can practice all natural medicine without paying their dues in the school. When TCM get to that point we deal with that and get their attention. It is not about where the money falls but should be about CARE and comprehensive approach for the best of the patients, but this doesn't happen and it is way off course to happen. I can say this from my own experience with the WM community that I know. Vanessa >> YinTangSong wrote: In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:46:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, acu.guy writes: > Let us also not forget - the scientists were once the David against the > Golieth of the Chruch. If ever our profession were to grow into a position of > power, we would be susceptible to the same corruption every other powerful > institution has succumbed to. I appreciate everyone who works to help spread > this gentle effective therapy. We may disagree on how to best do this, but > should keep working on how to work out our internal disputes so we can be more > effective. I completely agree with you Matt. Well said. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Thanks Maya and Richard - Regarding this thread, I would have to say I am more concerned about the possibility of Physical Therapists trying to get control of acupuncture than M.D.s. Matt Bauer - YinTangSong Chinese Medicine Friday, August 22, 2003 5:20 PM Re: Digest Number 138 In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:46:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, acu.guy writes: > Let us also not forget - the scientists were once the David against the > Golieth of the Chruch. If ever our profession were to grow into a position of > power, we would be susceptible to the same corruption every other powerful > institution has succumbed to. I appreciate everyone who works to help spread > this gentle effective therapy. We may disagree on how to best do this, but > should keep working on how to work out our internal disputes so we can be more > effective. I completely agree with you Matt. Well said. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Dear alon, I believe we never meet...less you are the ghost in the mist... most of what I doing netier you nor other will have an idea as I will have no idea what you are doing... But if you are willing to come to Guatemala most welcome... better still if we meet:-) Nor did I say that anyone believes Two or three weekends are enough, nor do I know of any Chinese doctor or any sincere person concern with patient centre practice that believes so... So what your point? style stream? great I personally think and remain thinking so due to my personal life experience which are not only my immediate experience but that of ancestral and longitudinal as well as lateral experience (which of course is different from yours, so what is your point?) I clearly stated there are lazy practitioners of any origin... So what is your point... If you want to put in to practice what you preach well come here... Marco in Guatemala... Alon: May be we can take this discussion away from rhetoric and start showing were the beef is Alon Marco: If you want to put in to practice what you preach well come to Guatemala... - ALON MARCUS Chinese Medicine Friday, August 22, 2003 9:04 PM Re: Digest Number 138 Hence Chinese medicine wheatear we like it or not can not be relayed or conveyed two three or more weekends... >>>>I do not think any body ever said it does. I do not know of a single MD that thinks that. The question is how much time an allopathic trained MD, DO, ND etc. needs to practice their type of acupuncture? now that does not include any herbs. Now they can choose to use western type of theories from Voll, to Vaga, neuroanatomical etc. If they choose TCM style well i think it really depends on their motivation. I can tell that my wife for example can read a several hundred pg book for different surgical techniques and in one week be able to converse the material. From teaching for many years i can tell you that this will of attention and comprehension is not often found in our profession. And the more important question is can we have better outcomes besides high talk and back patting our self's. We do not have studies to show anything. They are doing all the studies and therefore most of what you are gladly using every day to show how acup works is actually quoting their work. May be we can take this discussion away from rhetoric and start showing were the beef is Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Hence Chinese medicine wheatear we like it or not can not be relayed or conveyed two three or more weekends... >>>>I do not think any body ever said it does. I do not know of a single MD that thinks that. The question is how much time an allopathic trained MD, DO, ND etc. needs to practice their type of acupuncture? now that does not include any herbs. Now they can choose to use western type of theories from Voll, to Vaga, neuroanatomical etc. If they choose TCM style well i think it really depends on their motivation. I can tell that my wife for example can read a several hundred pg book for different surgical techniques and in one week be able to converse the material. From teaching for many years i can tell you that this will of attention and comprehension is not often found in our profession. And the more important question is can we have better outcomes besides high talk and back patting our self's. We do not have studies to show anything. They are doing all the studies and therefore most of what you are gladly using every day to show how acup works is actually quoting their work. May be we can take this discussion away from rhetoric and start showing were the beef is Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 AOMNC is already the largest national acupuncture organization in the US and for sure when this hits the streets (should be filed by next Friday), we will be the largest acupunctur eorganization ever immaginable. Others only claim to be the spokes organizations for the profession. See I don't just talk empty talk.....I walk the walk and produce the real results. When I get where I am going...acupuncture and it's qualified practitioners in the United States will BE respected and reimbursed for their services on a well- paid basis. Richard Please Richard, come to the UK and sort out the regulation thats coming into effect in 2008, its a right mess (see my previous messages on UK regulation). It's in a worse state than the US 'coz of the health care in the UK being free. So why see an acupuncturists and pay alot of money when you can get it free by a 'weekend' doctor or nurse at the government hospital? What can i do about it? Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Nor did I say that anyone believes Two or three weekends are enough, nor do I know of any Chinese doctor or any sincere person concern with patient centre practice that believes so... >>>>My point is that most MDs and DOs i know that practice acupuncture, and i know quite a few, do not just take a couple of weekend courses and start doing " acupuncture " . The ones i know very quickly realize that it takes a while and put a lot more energy than people on this list are giving them credit for. I have no idea what DCs do i do not know any that practice acupu and that are not also LAcs. Most MDs that take the 250 hours UCLA course end up not using acupu in their practices The numbers are actually very small. Unfortunately I have already been to Guatemala and am not planning a trip in the near future. I am traveling way to much as it is. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Rather its the few, usually placed at the top of the medical politics tree >>>Is this our mirror as well Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 <Matt when are you coming to Guatemala? Marco Bergh> Marco - As a lone private practitioner, I have great difficulty taking much time off as I have no one my patients feel comfortable with to take over for me. In 17 years, I have only taken a full 2 week off once - that was in my second year of practice when I had few patients. I hope in the future to find a partner I can work with and to travel. If your offer is still open, I would love to visit you and your country. Matt Bauer - Marco Chinese Medicine Friday, August 22, 2003 5:34 PM Re: Digest Number 138 Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Richard said " Matt This would be fine and I agree. One question though... WHY do those who disagree wish so vehemently try to prohibit those who are trying to gain the power for the profession? I do not try to prohibit anyone from their path...even those who wish to be nicey-nice to the MDs....so WHY do they wish to prohibit me from mine not that it will stop me? There is ONLY one answer which is blatantly obvious and that's why it is such a problem in resolving these kind of so-called internal disputes. They want what they want (just like an egotistical child does) and at the same time to stop all others and that is untenable behaviour. Richard - This is such a difficult issue - perhaps too complex for me to feel comfortable with commenting on in this forum. I know many of those you speak of. All I guess I should say is that they too believe as strongly as you do that they are working in the best interest of the profession. Here in California, this debate spilled into our legislative process and our standards for education, Scope of Practice, examination and school accreditation process will be looked at by an independent body, The Little Hoover Commission, who will make recommendations to our state legislature about how to deal with this mess. I will be in Sacramento this Wed. and Thurs. for the first two days of meetings on this. I just wish we could have worked out these problems between ourselves. Now - a body that has no background with CM will be looking over our shoulders. I hope it will turn out to be a positive, peacemaking process but it could go the other way. Matt Bauer - acudoc11 Chinese Medicine Friday, August 22, 2003 7:38 PM Re: Digest Number 138 Matt This would be fine and I agree. One question though... WHY do those who disagree wish so vehemently try to prohibit those who are trying to gain the power for the profession? I do not try to prohibit anyone from their path...even those who wish to be nicey-nice to the MDs....so WHY do they wish to prohibit me from mine not that it will stop me? There is ONLY one answer which is blatantly obvious and that's why it is such a problem in resolving these kind of so-called internal disputes. They want what they want (just like an egotistical child does) and at the same time to stop all others and that is untenable behaviour. Disagree - fine and we will continue to go each of our ways. My path has and is continuing to produce results for the profession in the US. I'd like to see others who have oppositional opinions to show us all what they have produced for the good of the 'qualified' practitioners. I will let you all in on a little advance knowledge. I have been working for over three years on a class action anti-trust suit against one of the major insurance companies. It has been a very difficult road and we were still nowhere. On Wednesday, we shifted gears and now will tie into a huge lawsuit against ALL the major insurance carriers. And this is for the benefit of all independant and primary care 'qualified acupuncturists' in the United States who are members of my organization called Acupuncture & Oreintal Medicine National Coalition (AOMNC). Karma has a very interesting way of working. AOMNC is already the largest national acupuncture organization in the US and for sure when this hits the streets (should be filed by next Friday), we will be the largest acupunctur eorganization ever immaginable. Others only claim to be the spokes organizations for the profession. See I don't just talk empty talk.....I walk the walk and produce the real results. When I get where I am going...acupuncture and it's qualified practitioners in the United States will BE respected and reimbursed for their services on a well-paid basis. Richard For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 i think we should be wary of anyone trying to practise cm without doing a 4 year course. besides if we can have certification then we can easily cull the people trying to sweasel in & maintain our stanard. i think thats the way to go about it. anand --- matt bauer <acu.guy wrote: > Thanks Maya and Richard - Regarding this thread, I > would have to say I am more concerned about the > possibility of Physical Therapists trying to get > control of acupuncture than M.D.s. > Matt Bauer > - > YinTangSong > Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 22, 2003 5:20 PM > Re: Digest Number 138 > > > In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:46:08 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > acu.guy writes: > > > > Let us also not forget - the scientists were > once the David against the > > Golieth of the Chruch. If ever our profession > were to grow into a position of > > power, we would be susceptible to the same > corruption every other powerful > > institution has succumbed to. I appreciate > everyone who works to help spread > > this gentle effective therapy. We may disagree > on how to best do this, but > > should keep working on how to work out our > internal disputes so we can be more > > effective. > > I completely agree with you Matt. Well said. > > Maya > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 1. stop weekend course conductors if you have asay. 2. try & prove that your results are better than theirs. 3. show that the work done in hospitals is baseless & short cut work, while youa re doing curative work. after all work specaks for itself. so try hard to get good results & publish them good luck anand --- <attiliodalberto wrote: > AOMNC is already the largest national acupuncture > organization in > the US and for sure when this hits the streets > (should be filed by > next Friday), we will be the largest acupunctur > eorganization ever > immaginable. Others only claim to be the spokes > organizations for > the profession. See I don't just talk empty > talk.....I walk the > walk and produce the real results. When I get where > I am > going...acupuncture and it's qualified practitioners > in the United > States will BE respected and reimbursed for their > services on a well- > paid basis. > > Richard > > > Please Richard, come to the UK and sort out the > regulation thats > coming into effect in 2008, its a right mess (see my > previous > messages on UK regulation). It's in a worse state > than the US 'coz > of the health care in the UK being free. So why see > an > acupuncturists and pay alot of money when you can > get it free by > a 'weekend' doctor or nurse at the government > hospital? > > What can i do about it? > > Attilio > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 hi, maybe it might have something to do with expectations & esults obtained. for eg: richard sees that he can treat carpal tunnel in 1-4 treatments & have them cured.he can see tht this is not possible. hence the fight for stating our claims. but if others have got only temporary pain relief & are unable to deliver the cure, then the MD is doing the same. so they do not se ee that as an aberration. hence they feel comfortable in knowing that MD can treat the same as AP. maybe this is the cause of the problem. i believe this is only due to the lack of indepth study & knowledge & ability that is reqd of a ap practitioner. since we all develop at different levels we also relate to things differently. maybe this is one of the points of argument & reality. anand --- matt bauer <acu.guy wrote: > Richard said > > " Matt > > This would be fine and I agree. > > One question though... WHY do those who disagree > wish so vehemently try to > prohibit those who are trying to gain the power for > the profession? > > I do not try to prohibit anyone from their > path...even those who wish to be > nicey-nice to the MDs....so WHY do they wish to > prohibit me from mine not that > it will stop me? > > There is ONLY one answer which is blatantly obvious > and that's why it is such > a problem in resolving these kind of so-called > internal disputes. They want > what they want (just like an egotistical child does) > and at the same time to > stop all others and that is untenable behaviour. > > Richard - This is such a difficult issue - perhaps > too complex for me to feel comfortable with > commenting on in this forum. I know many of those > you speak of. All I guess I should say is that they > too believe as strongly as you do that they are > working in the best interest of the profession. Here > in California, this debate spilled into our > legislative process and our standards for education, > Scope of Practice, examination and school > accreditation process will be looked at by an > independent body, The Little Hoover Commission, who > will make recommendations to our state legislature > about how to deal with this mess. I will be in > Sacramento this Wed. and Thurs. for the first two > days of meetings on this. I just wish we could have > worked out these problems between ourselves. Now - a > body that has no background with CM will be looking > over our shoulders. I hope it will turn out to be a > positive, peacemaking process but it could go the > other way. > > Matt Bauer > - > > acudoc11 > Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 22, 2003 7:38 PM > Re: Digest Number 138 > > > Matt > > This would be fine and I agree. > > One question though... WHY do those who disagree > wish so vehemently try to > prohibit those who are trying to gain the power > for the profession? > > I do not try to prohibit anyone from their > path...even those who wish to be > nicey-nice to the MDs....so WHY do they wish to > prohibit me from mine not that > it will stop me? > > There is ONLY one answer which is blatantly > obvious and that's why it is such > a problem in resolving these kind of so-called > internal disputes. They want > what they want (just like an egotistical child > does) and at the same time to > stop all others and that is untenable behaviour. > > Disagree - fine and we will continue to go each of > our ways. My path has and > is continuing to produce results for the > profession in the US. I'd like to see > others who have oppositional opinions to show us > all what they have produced > for the good of the 'qualified' practitioners. > > I will let you all in on a little advance > knowledge. I have been working for > over three years on a class action anti-trust suit > against one of the major > insurance companies. It has been a very difficult > road and we were still > nowhere. On Wednesday, we shifted gears and now > will tie into a huge lawsuit against > ALL the major insurance carriers. And this is for > the benefit of all > independant and primary care 'qualified > acupuncturists' in the United States who are > members of my organization called Acupuncture & > Oreintal Medicine National > Coalition (AOMNC). Karma has a very interesting > way of working. AOMNC is already > the largest national acupuncture organization in > the US and for sure when this > hits the streets (should be filed by next Friday), > we will be the largest > acupunctur eorganization ever immaginable. Others > only claim to be the spokes > organizations for the profession. See I don't just > talk empty talk.....I walk the > walk and produce the real results. When I get > where I am going...acupuncture > and it's qualified practitioners in the United > States will BE respected and > reimbursed for their services on a well-paid > basis. > > Richard > For practitioners, students and those interested > in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, religious, spam messages or flame > another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email > message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, > then visit the groups' homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ > Click 'edit my membership' on the right hand side > and adjust accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 it happens everywhere. one has to fight for what is right. so need to make our choices & go with the tide. anand --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > Rather its the few, > usually placed at the top of the medical politics > tree > >>>Is this our mirror as well > Alon > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 yes thats very true.yin does overcome yang if yin is strong enough to surviuve it. its like fire. water will overcome it if there is adequate quantities. but if there is shortage then water will evaporate. same with CM. in china it will survie as there are numbers. but in west where ther are limited numbers --IF WE ARE NOT CAREFUL & WAIT TOO LONG FOR THE YIN TO CONQUER YANG - I BELIEVE WE MAY VAPORISE. anand --- matt bauer <acu.guy wrote: > IMO, the fighting spirit Richard advocates strikes > me as a yang quality while the cooperative bridge > Terry advocates is more a yin quality. In Chapter 28 > of the Tao Teh Ching, Lao Tzu said " Know that you > possess the strong masculine (yang) principle, yet > abide by the meek feminine (yin) principal. " Then, > in Chapter 43 - " The softest of all things can > overcome the hardest of all things. " We should, I > think, look for a balance of both approaches, > perhaps favoring the yin as the underlying > principal. > > Matt Bauer > - > Terry Oleson > Chinese Medicine > Friday, August 22, 2003 8:51 AM > RE: Digest Number 138 > > > Dear All, > > As a licensed psychologist, as well as > someone deeply interested > in clinical acupuncture, it seems that there has > been an overly > obsessive and paranoid reaction on the part of > many acupuncturist toward > the medical profession. Most MDs have not taken > any courses on > acupuncture, thus for a physician to take several > weekend courses on the > topic seems like a good thing, not a horrible > thing. There are still > many MDs opposed to acupuncture, labeling it quack > medicine, but there > are a growing number of MDs who are open to its > potential benefits. When > they take these weekend courses, the MDs do not > immediately conclude > that they are just as experienced in the procedure > as someone who has > had several years of training at an acupuncture > school. Several of them > go ahead and do the full 2 - 3 year training to > obtain their LAc as well > as their MD license. Most of them just learn about > the types of > conditions that they may refer to an LAc for > acupuncture treatment. > > All this ranting and raving about the crimes > committed by > weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely > misplaced. There are > some bad doctors out there, but most of them are > rather caring health > care professionals. There is a real reason for > righteous anger. Not > enough has been done to bridge the gap between > different health care > professions, to bring greater Taoist harmony to > the warring medical > factions. Such a pursuit would require > acupuncturists, who represent the > new therapy on the block, to make congenial > overtures to members of the > medical establishment, who currently hold the > power in American > medicine. One may resent that MDs hold the power, > one may resent that > Western Medicine can be overly arrogant in > thinking that they know > everything, but at the end of the day, it will > serve our needs to work > with them, not against them. If one looks at the > history of medicine in > both the Far East and in the West, such has always > been the case. So, > while still allowing that righteous rage has its > usefulness, the > practice of Buddhist compassion might serve the > acupuncture community > better. And for those Christians who have learned > acupuncture, remember, > they (MDs) " know not what they do " when they > remain ignorant of the qi > life force that is the true source of healing. Our > job is to bring them > enlightenment. > > Terry > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine > > Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:06 AM > Chinese Medicine > Digest Number 138 > > > For practitioners, students and those interested > in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any > commerical, religious, spam > messages or flame another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email > message, i.e. > individually, daily digest or none, then visit the > groups' homepage: > > Chinese Medicine/ > Click 'edit > my membership' on the right hand side and adjust > accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Is that four years just for acupuncture or with herbs aswell? ===== Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk Chinese Traditional Medicine Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. http://calendar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 research studie are hard to convince as the WM cocept of research is different. when research is done on CM lines its not acceptable. os there is a value system problem anand --- ALON MARCUS <alonmarcus wrote: > Hence Chinese medicine wheatear we like it or not > can not be relayed or conveyed two three or more > weekends... > >>>>I do not think any body ever said it does. I do > not know of a single MD that thinks that. The > question is how much time an allopathic trained MD, > DO, ND etc. needs to practice their type of > acupuncture? now that does not include any herbs. > Now they can choose to use western type of theories > from Voll, to Vaga, neuroanatomical etc. If they > choose TCM style well i think it really depends on > their motivation. I can tell that my wife for > example can read a several hundred pg book for > different surgical techniques and in one week be > able to converse the material. From teaching for > many years i can tell you that this will of > attention and comprehension is not often found in > our profession. > And the more important question is can we have > better outcomes besides high talk and back patting > our self's. We do not have studies to show anything. > They are doing all the studies and therefore most of > what you are gladly using every day to show how acup > works is actually quoting their work. > May be we can take this discussion away from > rhetoric and start showing were the beef is > Alon > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Matt, I know all too well about Little Hoover as I was physically in California in May and have been working very closely with some who will testify. This was DELAY tactics regarding legislative issues. If THEY delay long enough......the poorly trained AAMA (week-end warriors) will eventually take over while the profession stays asleep and TRUSTS. I assume you do KNOW that it was ACAOM and the rest of the over controlling (mini-monopolistic) organizations who are in bed with the allopaths since the 1970-80's to keep AP/OM out of mainstream medicine that forced the issue towards Little Hoover. It's the same story no matter where you turn. The drug companies with the MDs as their pill-pushers DO NOT want AP/OM to really take hold in the US. Richard In a message dated 8/23/03 1:05:18 PM, acu.guy writes: <<This is such a difficult issue - perhaps too complex for me to feel comfortable with commenting on in this forum. I know many of those you speak of. All I guess I should say is that they too believe as strongly as you do that they are working in the best interest of the profession. Here in California, this debate spilled into our legislative process and our standards for education, Scope of Practice, examination and school accreditation process will be looked at by an independent body, The Little Hoover Commission, who will make recommendations to our state legislature about how to deal with this mess. I will be in Sacramento this Wed. and Thurs. for the first two days of meetings on this. I just wish we could have worked out these problems between ourselves. Now - a body that has no background with CM will be looking over our shoulders. I hope it will turn out to be a positive, peacemaking process but it could go the other way. Matt Bauer >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Usually it is 4 years with the very basic 450 hours of herbal education. If one was to compare acupuncture vs herbal education...we could say that acupuncture education is college level and herbal is kindergarden level. Richard In a message dated 8/23/03 7:25:00 PM, attiliodalberto writes: << Is that four years just for acupuncture or with herbs aswell? >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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