Re:TCM Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

[Guest guest]

i really do not understand the need for some of the derisive, condescending

behavior exhibited by some group members. come on, let's be decent to one

another. presumably, we are all adults here, eh? the days of 'medical

deities' are over, save those vestiges of ego that do exist in white coats.

it certainly is not fair to label the whole conventional medical

establishment, nor any other profession, on the backs of those few

self-righteous. those folks exist in every profession, including chinese

medicine. we are all here to help patients. let's review some sesame street

ethics, and recall examples of cooperation.

 

if an md or do takes a short course in chinese medicine and learns enough to

make good referrals in our directions, we only lose out if they don't

already have our names and faces in their repetoire of connections!

 

i also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can

put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence, except to state that if

doctors bill medicare, they'll never see much money, let along big money!

 

it used to be that medical practices put caps on how many medicare patients

they could take, sometimes expressed as a percentage of their patient base.

at that point, they would not take more medicare patients. ah, but things

are very different now. the present trend is that medical practices stop

billing medicare altogether, meaning that their medicare patients have to go

elsewhere.

 

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few exceptions, the more computerized

information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at least with no more medical

practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the cardiologist and

thoracic surgeon in redding, california? from someone who knew both of those

doctors professionally, i am told they they were really nice guys. but, they

must have been a little full of themselves, enough to think it was ethical

to screw the system by which they felt screwed. remember karma, and the

golden rule?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the writer below for a couple of

reasons.

 

1st Reason: The " behaviour " on this list has not been " derisive,

condescending " as she claims. It has in fact been pretty civilised from what

I have read on some TCM lists. We need this kind of exchange.

 

2nd Reason: Western medicine and the institutions and infrastructure which

support it is HUGELY CORRUPT. There may be good docs out there as Marcos in

Guatemala reported, wish there were more, but there aren't. Just do a Google

search on > Lupron scandal < to see what I mean.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

Lynn Detamore [healthworks]

22 August 2003 10:30

Chinese Medicine

Re:TCM Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

 

 

i really do not understand the need for some of the derisive, condescending

behavior exhibited by some group members. come on, let's be decent to one

another. presumably, we are all adults here, eh? the days of 'medical

deities' are over, save those vestiges of ego that do exist in white coats.

it certainly is not fair to label the whole conventional medical

establishment, nor any other profession, on the backs of those few

self-righteous. those folks exist in every profession, including chinese

medicine. we are all here to help patients. let's review some sesame street

ethics, and recall examples of cooperation.

 

if an md or do takes a short course in chinese medicine and learns enough to

make good referrals in our directions, we only lose out if they don't

already have our names and faces in their repetoire of connections!

 

i also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can

put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence, except to state that if

doctors bill medicare, they'll never see much money, let along big money!

 

it used to be that medical practices put caps on how many medicare patients

they could take, sometimes expressed as a percentage of their patient base.

at that point, they would not take more medicare patients. ah, but things

are very different now. the present trend is that medical practices stop

billing medicare altogether, meaning that their medicare patients have to go

elsewhere.

 

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few exceptions, the more computerized

information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at least with no more medical

practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the cardiologist and

thoracic surgeon in redding, california? from someone who knew both of those

doctors professionally, i am told they they were really nice guys. but, they

must have been a little full of themselves, enough to think it was ethical

to screw the system by which they felt screwed. remember karma, and the

golden rule?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the writer below for a couple of

reasons.

 

1st Reason: The " behaviour " on this list has not been " derisive,

condescending " as she claims. It has in fact been pretty civilised from what

I have read on some TCM lists. We need this kind of exchange since

discussion is the life blood of an email list.

 

2nd Reason: Western medicine and the institutions and infrastructure which

support it is HUGELY CORRUPT. There may be good docs out there as Marco in

Guatemala reported, wish there were more, but there aren't. Just do a Google

search on > Lupron scandal < to see what I mean.

 

3rd Reason: WM is HUGELY IGNORANT. It has at best 500 year old knowledge

base built up from our colonial experience on the gun decks of ships, where

barbers would clear away the dead and dying and make way for the next cannon

volley. TCM has thousands of years of knowhow by comparison.

 

Just today I was talking to a gentleman whose son has severe colitis and

IBS. His NHS Consultant said the patient did not have to restrict his diet

in any way. Can you believe that ? But it is true, and I know because I have

personally had an identical experience from a NHS Consultant. These people

do not heal, they simply preside over the patients deterioration and

ultimate demise & at great expense too for they get paid a fortune for doing

bugger all most of the time.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

Lynn Detamore [healthworks]

22 August 2003 10:30

Chinese Medicine

Re:TCM Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

 

 

i really do not understand the need for some of the derisive, condescending

behavior exhibited by some group members. come on, let's be decent to one

another. presumably, we are all adults here, eh? the days of 'medical

deities' are over, save those vestiges of ego that do exist in white coats.

it certainly is not fair to label the whole conventional medical

establishment, nor any other profession, on the backs of those few

self-righteous. those folks exist in every profession, including chinese

medicine. we are all here to help patients. let's review some sesame street

ethics, and recall examples of cooperation.

 

if an md or do takes a short course in chinese medicine and learns enough to

make good referrals in our directions, we only lose out if they don't

already have our names and faces in their repetoire of connections!

 

i also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can

put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence, except to state that if

doctors bill medicare, they'll never see much money, let along big money!

 

it used to be that medical practices put caps on how many medicare patients

they could take, sometimes expressed as a percentage of their patient base.

at that point, they would not take more medicare patients. ah, but things

are very different now. the present trend is that medical practices stop

billing medicare altogether, meaning that their medicare patients have to go

elsewhere.

 

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few exceptions, the more computerized

information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at least with no more medical

practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the cardiologist and

thoracic surgeon in redding, california? from someone who knew both of those

doctors professionally, i am told they they were really nice guys. but, they

must have been a little full of themselves, enough to think it was ethical

to screw the system by which they felt screwed. remember karma, and the

golden rule?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can

put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence,

>>>>They have no idea what they are talking about. Just loud barking. FEELs good

to them however

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few exceptions, the more computerized

information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at least with no more medical

practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the cardiologist and

thoracic surgeon in redding, california? from someone who knew both of those

>>>Medicare is the most aggressive at investigating charges and commonly comes

to your office, auditing records and often demand money back.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Totally agree with you. We have been very respectful in our argument here, is

just that we are disagreing.

But some cannot stand different opinion.

Vanessa

 

<<

ga.bates wrote:

 

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the writer below for a couple of

reasons.

 

1st Reason: The " behaviour " on this list has not been " derisive,

condescending " as she claims. It has in fact been pretty civilised from what

I have read on some TCM lists. We need this kind of exchange since

discussion is the life blood of an email list.

 

2nd Reason: Western medicine and the institutions and infrastructure which

support it is HUGELY CORRUPT. There may be good docs out there as Marco in

Guatemala reported, wish there were more, but there aren't. Just do a Google

search on > Lupron scandal < to see what I mean.

 

3rd Reason: WM is HUGELY IGNORANT. It has at best 500 year old knowledge

base built up from our colonial experience on the gun decks of ships, where

barbers would clear away the dead and dying and make way for the next cannon

volley. TCM has thousands of years of knowhow by comparison.

 

Just today I was talking to a gentleman whose son has severe colitis and

IBS. His NHS Consultant said the patient did not have to restrict his diet

in any way. Can you believe that ? But it is true, and I know because I have

personally had an identical experience from a NHS Consultant. These people

do not heal, they simply preside over the patients deterioration and

ultimate demise & at great expense too for they get paid a fortune for doing

bugger all most of the time.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

Lynn Detamore [healthworks]

22 August 2003 10:30

Chinese Medicine

Re:TCM Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

 

 

i really do not understand the need for some of the derisive, condescending

behavior exhibited by some group members. come on, let's be decent to one

another. presumably, we are all adults here, eh? the days of 'medical

deities' are over, save those vestiges of ego that do exist in white coats.

it certainly is not fair to label the whole conventional medical

establishment, nor any other profession, on the backs of those few

self-righteous. those folks exist in every profession, including chinese

medicine. we are all here to help patients. let's review some sesame street

ethics, and recall examples of cooperation.

 

if an md or do takes a short course in chinese medicine and learns enough to

make good referrals in our directions, we only lose out if they don't

already have our names and faces in their repetoire of connections!

 

i also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can

put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence, except to state that if

doctors bill medicare, they'll never see much money, let along big money!

 

it used to be that medical practices put caps on how many medicare patients

they could take, sometimes expressed as a percentage of their patient base.

at that point, they would not take more medicare patients. ah, but things

are very different now. the present trend is that medical practices stop

billing medicare altogether, meaning that their medicare patients have to go

elsewhere.

 

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few exceptions, the more computerized

information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at least with no more medical

practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the cardiologist and

thoracic surgeon in redding, california? from someone who knew both of those

doctors professionally, i am told they they were really nice guys. but, they

must have been a little full of themselves, enough to think it was ethical

to screw the system by which they felt screwed. remember karma, and the

golden rule?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do you think an MD needs a short course on acupuncture to reffer out to

acupunture?? DO we have to go to a short course in western medicine to reffer

out?

 

If someone wants to understand more so patients have a better CARE than they

could easily ask someone in the TCM community to come and speak to them about

the way they could work in a more comprehensive approach.

 

The problem here is that there is a white elephant in the living room and many

doesn't want to recognize IT.

 

Vanessa

 

>>

 

if an md or do takes a short course in chinese medicine and learns enough to

make good referrals in our directions, we only lose out if they don't

already have our names and faces in their repetoire of connections!>>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I find something in this email from Terry rather subversive, cloaked in the

language of reason.

 

The " ranting and raving " you complain of .. where is it? How about a quote

to substantiate your position here? Come on - are you so repressed that you

perceive a little discourse as unacceptable vocalising ? Surely not!

 

As a self-proclaimed psychologist you bring in the working language of your

profession too casually to take seriously - " obsessive and paranoid

reaction " .. well that in itself is a little OTT isn't it.

 

What the concern is here is the hijacking of genuine TCM skills by MD's who

cannot practice those skills but say they do after a few hours instruction.

To express concern here is not obsessive paranoid ranting and raving. It is

quite simply a very healthy sense of self preservation.

 

You talk about the history of medicine, but do you realise that wherever WM

has gone (much like Christianity in the centuries before) nothing is left of

the traditional systems they met? The British suppressed Ayurvedic Medicine

in India for 200 years (it was illegal to practice and there were harsh

punishments). Today in Leicester, one of the largest Hindu communities in

the West outside India you hardly find any evidence of Ayurvedic medicine.

Yet there are plenty of Asian doctors in the GP surgeries and the hospital

wards. What is more, where you do find Ayurvedic medicine it has lost its

essence, a shadow of its former self: there is no tight and altogether

thorough paradigm like the one possessed by TCM.

 

Lucky for us no-one walked all over China, although they had a bloody good

try! Let us do justice to TCM by helping to maintain its unique character.

WM should be adapting to TCM, not the other way round, which is what this is

all about really.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

 

Terry Oleson [t_oleson]

22 August 2003 16:51

Chinese Medicine

RE: Digest Number 138

 

 

Dear All,

 

As a licensed psychologist, as well as someone deeply interested

in clinical acupuncture, it seems that there has been an overly

obsessive and paranoid reaction on the part of many acupuncturist toward

the medical profession. Most MDs have not taken any courses on

acupuncture, thus for a physician to take several weekend courses on the

topic seems like a good thing, not a horrible thing. There are still

many MDs opposed to acupuncture, labeling it quack medicine, but there

are a growing number of MDs who are open to its potential benefits. When

they take these weekend courses, the MDs do not immediately conclude

that they are just as experienced in the procedure as someone who has

had several years of training at an acupuncture school. Several of them

go ahead and do the full 2 - 3 year training to obtain their LAc as well

as their MD license. Most of them just learn about the types of

conditions that they may refer to an LAc for acupuncture treatment.

 

All this ranting and raving about the crimes committed by

weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely misplaced. There are

some bad doctors out there, but most of them are rather caring health

care professionals. There is a real reason for righteous anger. Not

enough has been done to bridge the gap between different health care

professions, to bring greater Taoist harmony to the warring medical

factions. Such a pursuit would require acupuncturists, who represent the

new therapy on the block, to make congenial overtures to members of the

medical establishment, who currently hold the power in American

medicine. One may resent that MDs hold the power, one may resent that

Western Medicine can be overly arrogant in thinking that they know

everything, but at the end of the day, it will serve our needs to work

with them, not against them. If one looks at the history of medicine in

both the Far East and in the West, such has always been the case. So,

while still allowing that righteous rage has its usefulness, the

practice of Buddhist compassion might serve the acupuncture community

better. And for those Christians who have learned acupuncture, remember,

they (MDs) " know not what they do " when they remain ignorant of the qi

life force that is the true source of healing. Our job is to bring them

enlightenment.

 

Terry

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:06 AM

Chinese Medicine

Digest Number 138

 

 

For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam

messages or flame another member.

 

If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e.

individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups' homepage:

Chinese Medicine/ Click 'edit

my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Double AMEN to this post.

Couldn't have said better.

 

Vanessa

 

ga.bates wrote:

 

I find something in this email from Terry rather subversive, cloaked in the

language of reason.

 

The " ranting and raving " you complain of .. where is it? How about a quote

to substantiate your position here? Come on - are you so repressed that you

perceive a little discourse as unacceptable vocalising ? Surely not!

 

As a self-proclaimed psychologist you bring in the working language of your

profession too casually to take seriously - " obsessive and paranoid

reaction " .. well that in itself is a little OTT isn't it.

 

What the concern is here is the hijacking of genuine TCM skills by MD's who

cannot practice those skills but say they do after a few hours instruction.

To express concern here is not obsessive paranoid ranting and raving. It is

quite simply a very healthy sense of self preservation.

 

You talk about the history of medicine, but do you realise that wherever WM

has gone (much like Christianity in the centuries before) nothing is left of

the traditional systems they met? The British suppressed Ayurvedic Medicine

in India for 200 years (it was illegal to practice and there were harsh

punishments). Today in Leicester, one of the largest Hindu communities in

the West outside India you hardly find any evidence of Ayurvedic medicine.

Yet there are plenty of Asian doctors in the GP surgeries and the hospital

wards. What is more, where you do find Ayurvedic medicine it has lost its

essence, a shadow of its former self: there is no tight and altogether

thorough paradigm like the one possessed by TCM.

 

Lucky for us no-one walked all over China, although they had a bloody good

try! Let us do justice to TCM by helping to maintain its unique character.

WM should be adapting to TCM, not the other way round, which is what this is

all about really.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

 

Terry Oleson [t_oleson]

22 August 2003 16:51

Chinese Medicine

RE: Digest Number 138

 

 

Dear All,

 

As a licensed psychologist, as well as someone deeply interested

in clinical acupuncture, it seems that there has been an overly

obsessive and paranoid reaction on the part of many acupuncturist toward

the medical profession. Most MDs have not taken any courses on

acupuncture, thus for a physician to take several weekend courses on the

topic seems like a good thing, not a horrible thing. There are still

many MDs opposed to acupuncture, labeling it quack medicine, but there

are a growing number of MDs who are open to its potential benefits. When

they take these weekend courses, the MDs do not immediately conclude

that they are just as experienced in the procedure as someone who has

had several years of training at an acupuncture school. Several of them

go ahead and do the full 2 - 3 year training to obtain their LAc as well

as their MD license. Most of them just learn about the types of

conditions that they may refer to an LAc for acupuncture treatment.

 

All this ranting and raving about the crimes committed by

weekend acupuncture courses for MDs seems entirely misplaced. There are

some bad doctors out there, but most of them are rather caring health

care professionals. There is a real reason for righteous anger. Not

enough has been done to bridge the gap between different health care

professions, to bring greater Taoist harmony to the warring medical

factions. Such a pursuit would require acupuncturists, who represent the

new therapy on the block, to make congenial overtures to members of the

medical establishment, who currently hold the power in American

medicine. One may resent that MDs hold the power, one may resent that

Western Medicine can be overly arrogant in thinking that they know

everything, but at the end of the day, it will serve our needs to work

with them, not against them. If one looks at the history of medicine in

both the Far East and in the West, such has always been the case. So,

while still allowing that righteous rage has its usefulness, the

practice of Buddhist compassion might serve the acupuncture community

better. And for those Christians who have learned acupuncture, remember,

they (MDs) " know not what they do " when they remain ignorant of the qi

life force that is the true source of healing. Our job is to bring them

enlightenment.

 

Terry

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, August 20, 2003 4:06 AM

Chinese Medicine

Digest Number 138

 

 

For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM.

 

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam

messages or flame another member.

 

If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e.

individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups' homepage:

Chinese Medicine/ Click 'edit

my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Seems like a match. And I most heartily agree with both.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

Let us do justice to TCM by helping to maintain its unique character. WM

should be adapting to TCM, not the other way round, which is what this is all

about really.

 

Sammy.

 

 

Our job is to bring them enlightenment.

 

Terry

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sammy

 

You are quite correct in the all too often cloaked subversive language that

some here who exist also in other groups like to put forth. As I speak my peace

they speak their's. We are for sure lined up on different sides which

normally would be OK....with one exception. As they sit back and twiddle their

thumbs

expecting the enemy (competition - allopaths) to be nice people......they are

unfortunately sadly mistaken. Those allopaths who have been PUT in control by

the pharma-cartel who is the force behind them......who just WON'T ever let

them be fair or nice. It's NOT in their nature. It's against their profit

motives.

 

Facts are facts which no one can dispute. As I referred to 'Wilk vs

AMA'....some of you should attempt to LEARN the truth, by familiarizing

yourselves with

the case history wherein the allopaths have been trying to destroy

chiropractic medicine probably as far back as they have been trying to take over

control

of acupuncture and as they have done a darn good job of putting down

naturopaths who are now coming back. And when the DCs had them beat real

'bad'....they

made the same mistake of thinking that the allopaths could be 'trusted'. The

DCs said...'let's be nice'...they lost the war......and 'we want to work with

them'. So instead of bankrupting the AMA they allowed the settlement of an

undisclosed figure of costs-only which probably was around $20 million (a

guestimate) instead of financially destroying them with triple damages to which

they

were ENTITLED. Virtually, the very next day.....these same allopaths went back

to their old ways and began to harass the chiropractors even worse than

before. So this is WHOM the yin people of our profession TRUST? Gimme a break.

If

it was the first time around.....I would be right there with you'all.

 

As a little snap-shot into Florida.......not too long ago, I sat in the Law

Office of the Florida Medical Association....where they said to our lawyers and

under no uncertain terms....'that the Board of Governors (don't you just love

the arrogance?) would be a cold day in hell that they would continue to allow

Florida Acupuncturists to continue to call themselves Acupunctrue

Physicians'. I closed my eyes, calmed the rising yang and grinned. We continued

our

battle and they LOST big time. And this is only ONE example. We never attacked

them....THEY attacked our profession here and continue to do so by manipulating

the controlling Dept of Health. Who else runs that department but MDs.

 

LOGIC my dear colleagues is the order of the day and then the FACTS. When you

put both together you can clearly SEE what the path needs to be unless we b

ecome like morons and just roll over and play dead. Sorry......that's not me.

 

Richard

 

> Subj: Re:TCM Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

> 8/22/2003 5:22:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time

> <A HREF= " ga.bates " >ga.bates</A>

> Reply-to: <A

HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\

edicine </A>

> <A

HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\

edicine </A>

> Sent from the Internet

> I find something in this email from Terry rather subversive, cloaked in the

> language of reason.

>

> The " ranting and raving " you complain of .. where is it? How about a quote

> to substantiate your position here? Come on - are you so repressed that you

> perceive a little discourse as unacceptable vocalising ? Surely not!

>

> As a self-proclaimed psychologist you bring in the working language of your

> profession too casually to take seriously - " obsessive and paranoid

> reaction " .. well that in itself is a little OTT isn't it.

>

> What the concern is here is the hijacking of genuine TCM skills by MD's who

> cannot practice those skills but say they do after a few hours instruction.

> To express concern here is not obsessive paranoid ranting and raving. It is

> quite simply a very healthy sense of self preservation.

>

> You talk about the history of medicine, but do you realise that wherever WM

> has gone (much like Christianity in the centuries before) nothing is left of

> the traditional systems they met? The British suppressed Ayurvedic Medicine

> in India for 200 years (it was illegal to practice and there were harsh

> punishments). Today in Leicester, one of the largest Hindu communities in

> the West outside India you hardly find any evidence of Ayurvedic medicine.

> Yet there are plenty of Asian doctors in the GP surgeries and the hospital

> wards. What is more, where you do find Ayurvedic medicine it has lost its

> essence, a shadow of its former self: there is no tight and altogether

> thorough paradigm like the one possessed by TCM.

>

> Lucky for us no-one walked all over China, although they had a bloody good

> try! Let us do justice to TCM by helping to maintain its unique character.

> WM should be adapting to TCM, not the other way round, which is what this is

> all about really.

>

> Sammy.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

We can bring the horse to the water but can't force it to drink.

Vanessa

 

 

>>>>

 

Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen wrote:

Seems like a match. And I most heartily agree with both.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

Let us do justice to TCM by helping to maintain its unique character. WM

should be adapting to TCM, not the other way round, which is what this is all

about really.

 

Sammy.

 

 

Our job is to bring them enlightenment.

 

Terry

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Anand.....someone who knows and sees the truth by putting together

facts and logic.

 

Richard

 

 

> i think what you need to understand is that doctosrs

> make big money by 2 ways.

> 1. by seeing patients for acupuncture & claiming under

> medicare. they do not specify acupuncture - just an

> extended consultation or a regiular consultation. no

> one goes to check what treatment was actually

> provided.

> besides it does not matter whether pot gets better or

> not. either way they win. if pt gets better they go

> back for more treatment. if not they revert to wm

> teeatment without ever thinking of cm. the pt does not

> know that they were short changed.

> 2. the more money they make is by patient not going to

> cm practitioner & getting cured of their ill.

> just think of this for amoment . i get pts with

> migraines, headaches, asthama, back pain, etc cured

> over aperiod of time. same with cervical spondylitis,

> etc to list a few. richard mentioned about carpal

> tunnel.

> if these pts get cured who is there to visit the WM

> practitioner for treatment.

> the WM people are scared of this & its eventual impact

> on their income.

> i do not think they worry so much about whether its 15

> or 20 dollars. its the number of pts across the

> country that are at stake for all wm practitioners.

> please think & realise the figures in play.

> its just as the rich never give donations. but they

> always create abig fuss by giving their time for

> acharity where the poor are expected to give maybe

> 5-50 dollars /head. this raises far more money & they

> preserve theirs.

> bye

> anand

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is another great saying......'that he who laughs last - laughs best'.

We shall see the proof in the pudding and who winds up with egg on their

face.

You can be sarcastic all you want.....I will not stoop to your level.

Richard

 

 

 

> also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

> medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can

> put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence,

> >>>>They have no idea what they are talking about. Just loud barking. FEELs

> good to them however

> Alon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

i think what you need to understand is that doctosrs

make big money by 2 ways.

1. by seeing patients for acupuncture & claiming under

medicare. they do not specify acupuncture - just an

extended consultation or a regiular consultation. no

one goes to check what treatment was actually

provided.

besides it does not matter whether pot gets better or

not. either way they win. if pt gets better they go

back for more treatment. if not they revert to wm

teeatment without ever thinking of cm. the pt does not

know that they were short changed.

2. the more money they make is by patient not going to

cm practitioner & getting cured of their ill.

just think of this for amoment . i get pts with

migraines, headaches, asthama, back pain, etc cured

over aperiod of time. same with cervical spondylitis,

etc to list a few. richard mentioned about carpal

tunnel.

if these pts get cured who is there to visit the WM

practitioner for treatment.

the WM people are scared of this & its eventual impact

on their income.

i do not think they worry so much about whether its 15

or 20 dollars. its the number of pts across the

country that are at stake for all wm practitioners.

please think & realise the figures in play.

its just as the rich never give donations. but they

always create abig fuss by giving their time for

acharity where the poor are expected to give maybe

5-50 dollars /head. this raises far more money & they

preserve theirs.

bye

anand

 

 

 

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > also

don't understand the notion of doctors getting

> paid 'big money' for

> medicare services. in real healthcare life no

> professional or patient can

> put 'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence,

> >>>>They have no idea what they are talking about.

> Just loud barking. FEELs good to them however

> Alon

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

If based on the statement below the MD's and their

organized gang the Health Department is not trying to

control everything than we should just close our eyes

to the pink elephant sitting right on our eye lids.

Vanessa

 

>Richard :

>

> As a little snap-shot into Florida.......not too

> long ago, I sat in the Law

> Office of the Florida Medical Association....where

> they said to our lawyers and

> under no uncertain terms....'that the Board of

> Governors (don't you just love

> the arrogance?) would be a cold day in hell that

> they would continue to allow

> Florida Acupuncturists to continue to call

> themselves Acupunctrue

> Physicians'. I closed my eyes, calmed the rising

> yang and grinned. We continued our

> battle and they LOST big time. And this is only ONE

> example. We never attacked

> them....THEY attacked our profession here and

> continue to do so by manipulating

> the controlling Dept of Health. Who else runs that

> department but MDs.

>

> LOGIC my dear colleagues is the order of the day and

> then the FACTS. When you

> put both together you can clearly SEE what the path

> needs to be unless we b

> ecome like morons and just roll over and play dead.

> Sorry......that's not me.

>

> Richard

>

> > Subj: Re:TCM Pracitioners teaching western

> doctors...

> > 8/22/2003 5:22:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time

> > <A

>

HREF= " ga.bates " >ga.bates</A>

> > Reply-to: <A

>

HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\

edicine </A>

> > <A

>

HREF= " Chinese Medicine " >Traditional_Chinese_M\

edicine </A>

> > Sent from the Internet

> > I find something in this email from Terry rather

> subversive, cloaked in the

> > language of reason.

> >

> > The " ranting and raving " you complain of .. where

> is it? How about a quote

> > to substantiate your position here? Come on - are

> you so repressed that you

> > perceive a little discourse as unacceptable

> vocalising ? Surely not!

> >

> > As a self-proclaimed psychologist you bring in the

> working language of your

> > profession too casually to take seriously -

> " obsessive and paranoid

> > reaction " .. well that in itself is a little OTT

> isn't it.

> >

> > What the concern is here is the hijacking of

> genuine TCM skills by MD's who

> > cannot practice those skills but say they do after

> a few hours instruction.

> > To express concern here is not obsessive paranoid

> ranting and raving. It is

> > quite simply a very healthy sense of self

> preservation.

> >

> > You talk about the history of medicine, but do you

> realise that wherever WM

> > has gone (much like Christianity in the centuries

> before) nothing is left of

> > the traditional systems they met? The British

> suppressed Ayurvedic Medicine

> > in India for 200 years (it was illegal to practice

> and there were harsh

> > punishments). Today in Leicester, one of the

> largest Hindu communities in

> > the West outside India you hardly find any

> evidence of Ayurvedic medicine.

> > Yet there are plenty of Asian doctors in the GP

> surgeries and the hospital

> > wards. What is more, where you do find Ayurvedic

> medicine it has lost its

> > essence, a shadow of its former self: there is no

> tight and altogether

> > thorough paradigm like the one possessed by TCM.

> >

> > Lucky for us no-one walked all over China,

> although they had a bloody good

> > try! Let us do justice to TCM by helping to

> maintain its unique character.

> > WM should be adapting to TCM, not the other way

> round, which is what this is

> > all about really.

> >

> > Sammy.

> >

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

totally agree vanessa. you said it.

keep it up

a clever man like an MD should know off the top of

their head that patients can benefit. after all itsa

phone call away.

anand

 

--- <vbirang wrote: >

>

> Do you think an MD needs a short course on

> acupuncture to reffer out to acupunture?? DO we have

> to go to a short course in western medicine to

> reffer out?

>

> If someone wants to understand more so patients have

> a better CARE than they could easily ask someone in

> the TCM community to come and speak to them about

> the way they could work in a more comprehensive

> approach.

>

> The problem here is that there is a white elephant

> in the living room and many doesn't want to

> recognize IT.

>

> Vanessa

>

> >>

>

> if an md or do takes a short course in chinese

> medicine and learns enough to

> make good referrals in our directions, we only lose

> out if they don't

> already have our names and faces in their repetoire

> of connections!>>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

this is what we need to understand. inspite of such

crass abuse of medicare by some, the people of the

land stuill trust them with their lives without

question. that is the problem.

IT WOULD BE OK IF THEY CARED FOR THEIR PTS & DID THE

RIGHT THING. unfortunately not all of them care. hence

the sisue.

anand

 

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: >

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few

> exceptions, the more computerized

> information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at

> least with no more medical

> practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the

> cardiologist and

> thoracic surgeon in redding, california? from

> someone who knew both of those

> >>>Medicare is the most aggressive at investigating

> charges and commonly comes to your office, auditing

> records and often demand money back.

> Alon

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

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