TCM - TCM Pracitioner teaching western doctors - who are t...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/21/03 4:10:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

alonmarcus writes:

 

> Richard: So let's deal with your statements which clearly lacks ANY

understanding. You > seem to have been busy over the years working with the MDs

and

> writing books and that's great all the while, I've been in the real world of

> politics in the

> profession.

> Alon>>I mean the attitude not you personally. This fear that we are going to

> be taken over is way over blown and shows a strong lack of confidence in the

> OM profession. By the way I was on AAOM board and am aware of politics.

 

Richard: It's not a fear - it's a reality and if you don't see........maybe

you need to pay a little more attention to the real details. Politics has often

been called 'dirty' for a very good reason....because it is. It has nothing

to do with any lack of confidence in OM....it has to do with a reality of the

over controlling nature of the profession's competition (enemy) which you

obviously have no real experience dealing with. I have beat the Florida Medical

Association twice in Court here in Florida, beat them in legislatuire, beat them

in code rule, and now in the middle of suing the Dept of Health for games they

play against the profession.

 

> Richard: The issue has NEVER been about whether or not an AP would actually

> bill Medicare but in FACT about APs being THE PRIMARY

>

> Alon >>>I am not sure what you are saying here. The bill may be a different

> bill than I am aware of. I am talking about the Medicare statues (in creating

> pay scales) that would force a national rate of reimbursements. At the same

> time there is no way the we will be able to take away practice rights from

> MDs

>

 

Richard: For the past ten years the Bill has NEVER changed. Medicare Bills do

NOT create pay scales.

As to who can perform acupuncture....aren't you aware that in Hawaii and

Montana not even MDs can perform acupuncture unless they go to a four year

accredited school for training in acupuncture? So what are you talking about?

Have

you already given up the cause? I guess so......... since you see no problem in

the kind of week-end warrior training that they receive. In answer to

that.....I know the MDs or even the DCs don't take kindly to an AP taking a 100

hour

course and jumping into their medicine. Besides turf it is more important about

patient protection and effectiveness of treatment instead of how much and how

long they can bill the patient. I can effectively treat in one time what it

takes an MD or DC (if ever) to resolve in 30 treatments. I am sure you and

other well trained APs can do the same.

 

> Richard: maybe it shows that you are too deeply involved with the MDs and

> just maybe you are one of those who trains them in the 100 hour programs.

>

> Alon:>>>>I never have taught acupuncture to MDs i usually teach orthopedic

> medicine, but at the same time i would have no problems doing so. It is

> ridiculous to say that these people are selling their soles. Are you selling

yours

> when you study biomed, is the MDs that teach in OM schools selling theirs?

> Alon

>

Richard: The huge difference is that all the MDs or DCs do is that they take

a few week-end courses and expect to be the expert and the king of the

hill.....whereas in the case of APs they are taught by MDs only as a part of a

total

program.

 

If you don't know you should.....the World Health Organization clearly states

that IF an MD (not a DC) wishes to practice acupuncture (and that doesn't

include Chinese materia medica) up to par with the 'qualified acupuncturists'

they must take AT LEAST 1500 hours of acupuncture education and then take a

recognized test (not some self certification baloney).

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If we don't try - we won't. So watch what I do here in Florida...very soon.

And if I can do it here....why should we have this attitude of resignation

everywhere else?

Lastly - acupuncture is NOT part of their practice act anywhere in the

country.

It is part of a completely different paradigm which does not fall within

their practice.

 

 

> why would it be a problem to once-and-for-all SECURE these rights

> and benefits for all APs in the United States?

>

> >>>>I am for securing all the rights possible. However, there is no way we

> will redefine the practice acts of MDs

> Alon

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What I am trying to get through here is THAT.......we don't have to change

their practice act. Their practice acts do NOT include acupuncture...and that's

a fact!!!!

 

 

 

> why would it be a problem to once-and-for-all SECURE these rights

> and benefits for all APs in the United States?

>

> >>>>I am for securing all the rights possible. However, there is no way we

> will redefine the practice acts of MDs

> Alon

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Not what I have seen. They draw'em in with acupuncture.....stick 1-2 needles

and then bill Medicare through the roof for the visit etc...and to boot

collect at least a $20+ copay.

 

Richard

 

> Also, you will never find MDs providing acupuncture and billing Medicare.

> The only reason they get into acupuncture is to get out of the system.

> Alon

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What I am trying to get through here is THAT.......we don't have to change

their practice act. Their practice acts do NOT include acupuncture...and that's

a fact!!!!

>>>Interesting. What about DOs they had acupuncture as part of their recognized

therapies for a while. Is neuroanatomical acupuncture also not part of their

paradigm and therefore practice act? Or does OM own the word acupuncture?

interesting questions.

 

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Can we call this form of medical interest that Richard nicely state ( which I

saw it done many times) a symbol of CARE ??

Are the medical community really interested in care or just another form of fast

billing??

Vanessa

 

acudoc11 wrote:

Not what I have seen. They draw'em in with acupuncture.....stick 1-2 needles

and then bill Medicare through the roof for the visit etc...and to boot

collect at least a $20+ copay.

 

Richard

 

> Also, you will never find MDs providing acupuncture and billing Medicare.

> The only reason they get into acupuncture is to get out of the system.

> Alon

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Richard: They draw'em in with acupuncture.....stick 1-2 needles

and then bill Medicare through the roof for the visit etc...and to boot

collect at least a $20+ copay.

Alon: >>>I thought Medicare does not pay from acupuncture. When did Medicare

start paying for acupuncture? You can not bill Medicare through the roof even

if you wanted to. In do not know were you get your info

 

Richard: Alon.....hello....are you listening? I did NOT say that they BILL

medicare for the acupuncture. I SAID they bill them for the visit (and that

means office visit)...and any other thing they can stick into the visit..... but

NOT for the needling. For that they collect cash from the scamed patient. This

way they get paid big money for a few minutes work and the public believes

that that's acupuncture. I can not believe that you are oblivious to these scams

that are going on all around you (us).

---------------

 

Are you proving neuroanatomy a level to practice acupuncture? What is the

 

difference between acupuncture and dry needling, or trigger point therapy?

 

 

Alon>>>>From my perspective much is the same under only using language. When

you

 

design treatments based on OM and choose points based on OM you often end up

 

doing the same things as one who defines the disease in terms of

 

neuroantamical ideas. They then use points on the skin (acuppoints, trigger

 

points, neural switches, segmental areas, cranial points, etc) based on the

 

the neuroanatamical principles to treat the same disease. The locations are

 

often identical

 

Richard: And from my perspective nueroanatomy is at best about 20% of the

effect and pathway of acupuncture. Sure - 80% of the points are located near

nerves and near blood vessels but that does NOT mean that 100% of the effect has

anything to do with neuroanatomy. It's more like 20%. If that is MDs claim to

fame and co-opting of OM that they should be ashamed of themselves. I have

taught Acupuncture courses and was asked to use the medical acupuncture book. I

threw it out because it does not even come close to explaining what's really

going on. It's way too limited even to the point of the typical attitude of

certain MDs as secular, arrogant etc.

 

In a message dated 8/21/03 6:30:40 PM, alonmarcus writes:

 

<< Richard: For the past ten years the Bill has NEVER changed. Medicare Bills

do

NOT create pay scales.

 

Alon>>>Inclusion in Medicare does. Where have you been. May be you need to

work with MDs for a while

 

Richard: No Alon....it's not Medicare law that does that. Those kinds of

issues are manipulated long after by the biased establishment run by those same

MDs you would teach this medicine to. It appears that you have no knowdlege of

legislative issues or how the system actually works. You are just repeating

party line or what everyone has repeated how the system works. Any by the way -

YOU can keep working with those MDs....appears they have convinced you into

believing all these old-tale stories.

 

And when the law is changed and acupuncture is included-----it certainly will

NOT be $15. That is just another deterrant propaganda lie that people repeat

either because they know not what they say or because for certain hidden

reasons...they are against it.

[Guest guest]

Vanessa

 

Whatever they do it is the farthest thing from CARE. CARE is when you spend

time with your patient and care-about them and you can't do that in the typical

few minutes afforded allopathic patients.

 

For them it's all about how much more money they can stick in their pockets

in the least amount of time and if they can steal off another healthcare

practitioners modalities.....so be it.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 8/21/03 5:53:21 PM, vbirang writes:

 

<< Can we call this form of medical interest that Richard nicely state (

which I saw it done many times) a symbol of CARE ??

 

Are the medical community really interested in care or just another form of

fast billing??

 

Vanessa >>

[Guest guest]

By the way Alon.......since YOU said that the issue of being taken over is

way over blown......I take those words to mean that there is a REALITY to it.

And if that's true WHY gamble on that event taking place even to the smallest

degree?

 

You have way too much confidence in your allopathic brethern than I do. Given

their history of stomping on Naturopathic medicine and Chiropractice medicine

why trust them? Maybe you need to READ the Wilk vs AMA case and fully

understand how they went after the DCs. Maybe you need to understand history

that is

just surfacing in awareness how they has been stiffling acupuncture since 1970

trying to keep it out of mainstream. If it wasn't a reality then WHY are they

so afraid of AP/OM? Why do they have to prevent it from being a truly

collaborative stand-alone medicine along side of allopathic medicine? Notice I

didn't

SAY integrate it. That means taking it over.

 

In the last year I have openly challenged 3 University Medical institutions

and one group of MDs who supposedly have been perfoming acupuncture for 20

years.....that I can permanently resolve (as just one example) the typical

carpal

tunnel syndrome (even those ready for surgical intervention) in 1 to 2

treatments, NEVER using an acupuncture needle or piercing the skin with any

instrument, thereby saving this country around $20 billion dollars out of the

$24

billion that's spent annually. You know what they do? They RUN very fast in the

opposite direction. What is better evidence than RESULTS? And thats for just one

myofascial/osteofascial pain syndrome. And all those who tout

neuroanatomy......that's a joke. No - actually it's worse than a joke as I am

not laughing and

it's not funny. NOW maybe you get the picture. This IS all about money and

control. So let's not be naieve. Practitioners need to wake up and smell the

reality of it all...because it IS REAL and NOT over blown.

Richard

 

 

< > Alon>>I mean the attitude not you personally. This

 

> fear that we are going to

 

> > be taken over is way over blown and shows a strong

 

> lack of confidence in the

 

> > OM profession. By the way I was on AAOM board and

 

> am aware of politics. >>

[Guest guest]

They draw'em in with acupuncture.....stick 1-2 needles

and then bill Medicare through the roof for the visit etc...and to boot

collect at least a $20+ copay.

>>>I thought Medicare does not pay from acupuncture. When did Medicare start

paying for acupuncture? You can not bill Medicare through the roof even if you

wanted to. In do not know were you get your info

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Richard: For the past ten years the Bill has NEVER changed. Medicare Bills do

NOT create pay scales.

>>>Inclusion in Medicare does. Where have you been. May be you need to work with

MDs for a while

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi richard,

great to hear your good work. i would be interested in

finding out more & how you went about it on my private

line so we do not clogg up the net.

keep up the good work.

i like the way you have hit the nail on the head.its

very true as to what you say, i have found exactly the

same thing. there are too many md, learning in few

hours & being experts without any detailed knowledge.

if there are any acup teaching them it should be just

to improve their knowledge & insight. not to practise

as there is ahell of a lot to elarn before one can be

apractitioner.

so keep upthe work & we will keep striving for the

best.

good luck & love to hear your progress.

by the way the moment they were threatened with

primary carer status for AP they went to court. so

self preservation is their motto, not patient care,

not quality care for patient, not better services for

the patient, not better health care for pt.

JUST BETTER MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS & KEEP OUT GOOD

HEALTH CARE.

 

anand --- acudoc11 wrote: > In a message dated

8/21/03 4:10:29 PM Eastern

> Daylight Time,

> alonmarcus writes:

>

> > Richard: So let's deal with your statements which

> clearly lacks ANY

> understanding. You > seem to have been busy over the

> years working with the MDs and

> > writing books and that's great all the while, I've

> been in the real world of

> > politics in the

> > profession.

> > Alon>>I mean the attitude not you personally. This

> fear that we are going to

> > be taken over is way over blown and shows a strong

> lack of confidence in the

> > OM profession. By the way I was on AAOM board and

> am aware of politics.

>

> Richard: It's not a fear - it's a reality and if you

> don't see........maybe

> you need to pay a little more attention to the real

> details. Politics has often

> been called 'dirty' for a very good

> reason....because it is. It has nothing

> to do with any lack of confidence in OM....it has to

> do with a reality of the

> over controlling nature of the profession's

> competition (enemy) which you

> obviously have no real experience dealing with. I

> have beat the Florida Medical

> Association twice in Court here in Florida, beat

> them in legislatuire, beat them

> in code rule, and now in the middle of suing the

> Dept of Health for games they

> play against the profession.

>

> > Richard: The issue has NEVER been about whether or

> not an AP would actually

> > bill Medicare but in FACT about APs being THE

> PRIMARY

> >

> > Alon >>>I am not sure what you are saying here.

> The bill may be a different

> > bill than I am aware of. I am talking about the

> Medicare statues (in creating

> > pay scales) that would force a national rate of

> reimbursements. At the same

> > time there is no way the we will be able to take

> away practice rights from

> > MDs

> >

>

> Richard: For the past ten years the Bill has NEVER

> changed. Medicare Bills do

> NOT create pay scales.

> As to who can perform acupuncture....aren't you

> aware that in Hawaii and

> Montana not even MDs can perform acupuncture unless

> they go to a four year

> accredited school for training in acupuncture? So

> what are you talking about? Have

> you already given up the cause? I guess so.........

> since you see no problem in

> the kind of week-end warrior training that they

> receive. In answer to

> that.....I know the MDs or even the DCs don't take

> kindly to an AP taking a 100 hour

> course and jumping into their medicine. Besides turf

> it is more important about

> patient protection and effectiveness of treatment

> instead of how much and how

> long they can bill the patient. I can effectively

> treat in one time what it

> takes an MD or DC (if ever) to resolve in 30

> treatments. I am sure you and

> other well trained APs can do the same.

>

> > Richard: maybe it shows that you are too deeply

> involved with the MDs and

> > just maybe you are one of those who trains them in

> the 100 hour programs.

> >

> > Alon:>>>>I never have taught acupuncture to MDs i

> usually teach orthopedic

> > medicine, but at the same time i would have no

> problems doing so. It is

> > ridiculous to say that these people are selling

> their soles. Are you selling yours

> > when you study biomed, is the MDs that teach in OM

> schools selling theirs?

> > Alon

> >

> Richard: The huge difference is that all the MDs or

> DCs do is that they take

> a few week-end courses and expect to be the expert

> and the king of the

> hill.....whereas in the case of APs they are taught

> by MDs only as a part of a total

> program.

>

> If you don't know you should.....the World Health

> Organization clearly states

> that IF an MD (not a DC) wishes to practice

> acupuncture (and that doesn't

> include Chinese materia medica) up to par with the

> 'qualified acupuncturists'

> they must take AT LEAST 1500 hours of acupuncture

> education and then take a

> recognized test (not some self certification

> baloney).

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Wonderfuly said:

Vanessa

 

acudoc11 wrote:

By the way Alon.......since YOU said that the issue of being taken over is

way over blown......I take those words to mean that there is a REALITY to it.

And if that's true WHY gamble on that event taking place even to the smallest

degree?

 

You have way too much confidence in your allopathic brethern than I do. Given

their history of stomping on Naturopathic medicine and Chiropractice medicine

why trust them? Maybe you need to READ the Wilk vs AMA case and fully

understand how they went after the DCs. Maybe you need to understand history

that is

just surfacing in awareness how they has been stiffling acupuncture since 1970

trying to keep it out of mainstream. If it wasn't a reality then WHY are they

so afraid of AP/OM? Why do they have to prevent it from being a truly

collaborative stand-alone medicine along side of allopathic medicine? Notice I

didn't

SAY integrate it. That means taking it over.

 

In the last year I have openly challenged 3 University Medical institutions

and one group of MDs who supposedly have been perfoming acupuncture for 20

years.....that I can permanently resolve (as just one example) the typical

carpal

tunnel syndrome (even those ready for surgical intervention) in 1 to 2

treatments, NEVER using an acupuncture needle or piercing the skin with any

instrument, thereby saving this country around $20 billion dollars out of the

$24

billion that's spent annually. You know what they do? They RUN very fast in the

opposite direction. What is better evidence than RESULTS? And thats for just one

myofascial/osteofascial pain syndrome. And all those who tout

neuroanatomy......that's a joke. No - actually it's worse than a joke as I am

not laughing and

it's not funny. NOW maybe you get the picture. This IS all about money and

control. So let's not be naieve. Practitioners need to wake up and smell the

reality of it all...because it IS REAL and NOT over blown.

Richard

 

 

< > Alon>>I mean the attitude not you personally. This

 

> fear that we are going to

 

> > be taken over is way over blown and shows a strong

 

> lack of confidence in the

 

> > OM profession. By the way I was on AAOM board and

 

> am aware of politics. >>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My question is : Why can our profession or those in the rea practice of our

profession , understand this statement or at least smell it???

Vanessa

>>

acudoc11 wrote:

Vanessa

 

Whatever they do it is the farthest thing from CARE. CARE is when you spend

time with your patient and care-about them and you can't do that in the typical

few minutes afforded allopathic patients.

 

For them it's all about how much more money they can stick in their pockets

in the least amount of time and if they can steal off another healthcare

practitioners modalities.....so be it.

 

Richard

 

 

In a message dated 8/21/03 5:53:21 PM, vbirang writes:

 

<< Can we call this form of medical interest that Richard nicely state (

which I saw it done many times) a symbol of CARE ??

 

Are the medical community really interested in care or just another form of

fast billing??

 

Vanessa >>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

(and that

means office visit)...

>>>You mean they are getting reach on $20 office visits. You can only bill

for routine if you are seeing somebody often

Alon

[Guest guest]

And from my perspective nueroanatomy is at best about 20% of the

effect and pathway of acupuncture. Sure - 80% of the points are located near

nerves and near blood vessels but that does NOT mean that 100% of the effect has

anything to do with neuroanatomy. It's more like 20%. If that is MDs claim to

fame and co-opting of OM that they should be ashamed of themselves. I have

taught Acupuncture courses and was asked to use the medical acupuncture book. I

threw it out because it does not even come close to explaining what's really

going on. It's way too limited even to the point of the typical attitude of

certain MDs as secular, arrogant etc.

>>>And you have been a fly on the wall of their practices have you

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

the typical carpal

tunnel syndrome (even those ready for surgical intervention) in 1 to 2

treatments,

<<<<Ye I am sure you can, how many times have you done this

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vanessa

>>>And you cure carpal tunnel with 1 visit 10 times a day as well now do you

Alon

[Guest guest]

i agree with richard completely. md are least

interested in pt welfare. i was establishing my

practise & met a few MD. some of them had treatment

for their conditions which they benefitted from. their

friends & relatives were referred to me. but when it

came to the crunch very few of thewir bread & butter

patients who were suffering were referred . i am

talking about asthama, headaches, migraines, etc.

later on the MD decided to do the w/end course &

started prctising on his pts. with or without results.

so what do you say. theya re all the same. when they

need you personally they will come to you. but as long

a its business they want you as far as possible.

maybe its time for alon to look at whether he really

ahs that much business from the respective MD who have

been converted. i am sure thats not so.

please review the value system of these people before

you get involved. i am sure there are a few good

people. but they are few & far between. we cannot &

shouldnt change the rules just for these few.

so we need to be strict about our guidelines for

pratitioners & have stringent registration criteria.

this only can have a sandard level of knowledge. then

we can ta;lk on equal footing.

anand

 

 

 

--- <vbirang wrote: >

Wonderfuly said:

> Vanessa

>

> acudoc11 wrote:

> By the way Alon.......since YOU said that the issue

> of being taken over is

> way over blown......I take those words to mean that

> there is a REALITY to it.

> And if that's true WHY gamble on that event taking

> place even to the smallest

> degree?

>

> You have way too much confidence in your allopathic

> brethern than I do. Given

> their history of stomping on Naturopathic medicine

> and Chiropractice medicine

> why trust them? Maybe you need to READ the Wilk vs

> AMA case and fully

> understand how they went after the DCs. Maybe you

> need to understand history that is

> just surfacing in awareness how they has been

> stiffling acupuncture since 1970

> trying to keep it out of mainstream. If it wasn't a

> reality then WHY are they

> so afraid of AP/OM? Why do they have to prevent it

> from being a truly

> collaborative stand-alone medicine along side of

> allopathic medicine? Notice I didn't

> SAY integrate it. That means taking it over.

>

> In the last year I have openly challenged 3

> University Medical institutions

> and one group of MDs who supposedly have been

> perfoming acupuncture for 20

> years.....that I can permanently resolve (as just

> one example) the typical carpal

> tunnel syndrome (even those ready for surgical

> intervention) in 1 to 2

> treatments, NEVER using an acupuncture needle or

> piercing the skin with any

> instrument, thereby saving this country around $20

> billion dollars out of the $24

> billion that's spent annually. You know what they

> do? They RUN very fast in the

> opposite direction. What is better evidence than

> RESULTS? And thats for just one

> myofascial/osteofascial pain syndrome. And all those

> who tout

> neuroanatomy......that's a joke. No - actually it's

> worse than a joke as I am not laughing and

> it's not funny. NOW maybe you get the picture. This

> IS all about money and

> control. So let's not be naieve. Practitioners need

> to wake up and smell the

> reality of it all...because it IS REAL and NOT over

> blown.

> Richard

>

>

> < > Alon>>I mean the attitude not you personally.

> This

>

> > fear that we are going to

>

> > > be taken over is way over blown and shows a

> strong

>

> > lack of confidence in the

>

> > > OM profession. By the way I was on AAOM board

> and

>

> > am aware of politics. >>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

hi vamessa,

i am beginning to agree with richard that there are

some who understand & others who do not.

richard has made it clear that its not worth pursuing

the issue further.

maybe we should let it rest & so should alon & we come

to an amicable agreement that we have our views & till

alon is convinced otherwise he wishes to believe so.

maybe we can now get that out of the way & start

working on other areas as clinical, problem patients,

interesting articles read, policies towards better

practise & improved legislation, etc.

improving standards of practise & professional

levels,etc.

so let us refocus & get going strongly. let us not be

sdetracked by one issue & a few people with different

value systems.

anand

 

 

--- <vbirang wrote: > My

question is : Why can our profession or those in

> the rea practice of our profession , understand this

> statement or at least smell it???

> Vanessa

> >>

> acudoc11 wrote:

> Vanessa

>

> Whatever they do it is the farthest thing from CARE.

> CARE is when you spend

> time with your patient and care-about them and you

> can't do that in the typical

> few minutes afforded allopathic patients.

>

> For them it's all about how much more money they can

> stick in their pockets

> in the least amount of time and if they can steal

> off another healthcare

> practitioners modalities.....so be it.

>

> Richard

>

>

> In a message dated 8/21/03 5:53:21 PM,

> vbirang writes:

>

> << Can we call this form of medical interest that

> Richard nicely state (

> which I saw it done many times) a symbol of CARE ??

>

> Are the medical community really interested in care

> or just another form of

> fast billing??

>

> Vanessa >>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- anand bapat <acubapat wrote:

I agree, so lets start something about real medicine.

The problem is that not many gets involved and

inter-relate with others in the group, by bringing

something to the table where we all can share our

experiences and thoughts.

This happens very often in all groups ,some having 250

plus members and not much brought to the table to

inspire experience flow in this wondeful medicine.

Having said that, I hope we can bring somenthing to

the table for further discussion.

Vanessa

 

 

 

> hi vamessa,

> i am beginning to agree with richard that there are

> some who understand & others who do not.

> richard has made it clear that its not worth

> pursuing

> the issue further.

> maybe we should let it rest & so should alon & we

> come

> to an amicable agreement that we have our views &

> till

> alon is convinced otherwise he wishes to believe so.

> maybe we can now get that out of the way & start

> working on other areas as clinical, problem

> patients,

> interesting articles read, policies towards better

> practise & improved legislation, etc.

> improving standards of practise & professional

> levels,etc.

> so let us refocus & get going strongly. let us not

> be

> sdetracked by one issue & a few people with

> different

> value systems.

> anand

>

>

> --- <vbirang wrote: > My

> question is : Why can our profession or those in

> > the rea practice of our profession , understand

> this

> > statement or at least smell it???

> > Vanessa

> > >>

> > acudoc11 wrote:

> > Vanessa

> >

> > Whatever they do it is the farthest thing from

> CARE.

> > CARE is when you spend

> > time with your patient and care-about them and you

> > can't do that in the typical

> > few minutes afforded allopathic patients.

> >

> > For them it's all about how much more money they

> can

> > stick in their pockets

> > in the least amount of time and if they can steal

> > off another healthcare

> > practitioners modalities.....so be it.

> >

> > Richard

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 8/21/03 5:53:21 PM,

> > vbirang writes:

> >

> > << Can we call this form of medical interest that

> > Richard nicely state (

> > which I saw it done many times) a symbol of CARE

> ??

> >

> > Are the medical community really interested in

> care

> > or just another form of

> > fast billing??

> >

> > Vanessa >>

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

--- anand bapat <acubapat wrote:

 

I totally agree.

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

>

i agree with richard completely. md are least

> interested in pt welfare. i was establishing my

> practise & met a few MD. some of them had treatment

> for their conditions which they benefitted from.

> their

> friends & relatives were referred to me. but when it

> came to the crunch very few of thewir bread & butter

> patients who were suffering were referred . i am

> talking about asthama, headaches, migraines, etc.

> later on the MD decided to do the w/end course &

> started prctising on his pts. with or without

> results.

> so what do you say. theya re all the same. when they

> need you personally they will come to you. but as

> long

> a its business they want you as far as possible.

> maybe its time for alon to look at whether he really

> ahs that much business from the respective MD who

> have

> been converted. i am sure thats not so.

> please review the value system of these people

> before

> you get involved. i am sure there are a few good

> people. but they are few & far between. we cannot &

> shouldnt change the rules just for these few.

> so we need to be strict about our guidelines for

> pratitioners & have stringent registration criteria.

> this only can have a sandard level of knowledge.

> then

> we can ta;lk on equal footing.

> anand

>

>

>

> --- <vbirang wrote: >

> Wonderfuly said:

> > Vanessa

> >

> > acudoc11 wrote:

> > By the way Alon.......since YOU said that the

> issue

> > of being taken over is

> > way over blown......I take those words to mean

> that

> > there is a REALITY to it.

> > And if that's true WHY gamble on that event taking

> > place even to the smallest

> > degree?

> >

> > You have way too much confidence in your

> allopathic

> > brethern than I do. Given

> > their history of stomping on Naturopathic medicine

> > and Chiropractice medicine

> > why trust them? Maybe you need to READ the Wilk vs

> > AMA case and fully

> > understand how they went after the DCs. Maybe you

> > need to understand history that is

> > just surfacing in awareness how they has been

> > stiffling acupuncture since 1970

> > trying to keep it out of mainstream. If it wasn't

> a

> > reality then WHY are they

> > so afraid of AP/OM? Why do they have to prevent it

> > from being a truly

> > collaborative stand-alone medicine along side of

> > allopathic medicine? Notice I didn't

> > SAY integrate it. That means taking it over.

> >

> > In the last year I have openly challenged 3

> > University Medical institutions

> > and one group of MDs who supposedly have been

> > perfoming acupuncture for 20

> > years.....that I can permanently resolve (as just

> > one example) the typical carpal

> > tunnel syndrome (even those ready for surgical

> > intervention) in 1 to 2

> > treatments, NEVER using an acupuncture needle or

> > piercing the skin with any

> > instrument, thereby saving this country around $20

> > billion dollars out of the $24

> > billion that's spent annually. You know what they

> > do? They RUN very fast in the

> > opposite direction. What is better evidence than

> > RESULTS? And thats for just one

> > myofascial/osteofascial pain syndrome. And all

> those

> > who tout

> > neuroanatomy......that's a joke. No - actually

> it's

> > worse than a joke as I am not laughing and

> > it's not funny. NOW maybe you get the picture.

> This

> > IS all about money and

> > control. So let's not be naieve. Practitioners

> need

> > to wake up and smell the

> > reality of it all...because it IS REAL and NOT

> over

> > blown.

> > Richard

> >

> >

> > < > Alon>>I mean the attitude not you

> personally.

> > This

> >

> > > fear that we are going to

> >

> > > > be taken over is way over blown and shows a

> > strong

> >

> > > lack of confidence in the

> >

> > > > OM profession. By the way I was on AAOM board

> > and

> >

> > > am aware of politics. >>

> >

> >

> >