Heart surgery, Heart Blood deficiency.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/18/2003 5:54:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, attiliodalberto writes:

 

Hi Chris.

 

 

 

The heart in TCM houses the mind, so the mind is not in the brain. The brain just process the actions of the Zangfu. So to an comparison, the body is like a computer. The brain is the microchip, the hardware is the Zangfu and the software is the emotions or beliefs held within the Zangfu. There is a notable condition in TCM called Heart Blood deficiency which uses the classic formula Gui Pi Tang (see the newly uploaded file on this – Gui Pi Tang).

 

 

Chris replies: I am aware of what you said. It is basic. I never intended to infer that the mind does not inhabit the heart. I believe it does. We are spiritual, emotional physical beings and each of these aspects or ourselves are represented in the physical in some form. I believe it is a benefit to the healer to undersigned how they work together.

What I was pointing out in the post I have copied below, is there are commonly understood physical reasons why "Heart blood deficiency" could show up in a person when it has nothing to do with the heart.

Treating a heart blood deficiency caused by anemia with classic TCM may work, but wouldn't it be a better idea to make sure the patient got enough iron in the diet?

Treating heart blood deficiency that was caused by arterial sclerosis with classic TCM might work, but wouldn't a strong artery cleansing program be more affective?

I believe the original post which started this discussion was pointing out that after bypass surgery, 30% of the patience's have serious mental deterioration due to strokes caused by arterial plague broken away during the operation.

A procedure of filtering the blood during the operation has proven to be very successful at stopping these strokes and the and many doctors, although aware of the procedure are not using it.

A person replied that the original post suggesting that the patient be treated for heart blood deficiency according to TCM. Now Atillio is suggesting that the mind is housed in the heart and suggested that Gui Pi Tong is a classic remedy for this.

I don't disagree with Atillio. Although, think in this particular situation, a course of blood thinners, anticoagulants and heavy doses of specific brain nutrients would be a better call.

I do not see the mind being at the core of the problem when people suffer strokes from debris that close off blood circulation during an operation.

More below

 

 

 

A blood deficiency, amongst other things, leads to the symptoms of memory loss and a poor appetite, which relates to the post symptoms experienced by people having undergone a heart bypass. This surgery may cause a deficiency of Heart Qi and therefore Heart Blood causing the symptoms and syndrome. What I was trying to suggest is that maybe TCM could be used to strengthen the Heart prior to surgery and post surgery, lessening the side-effects of surgery and therefore benefiting the patient.

 

 

Chris responds: It may help to treat a person for blood deficiency before a heart operation. In this particular situation though, I don't believe it will stop the strokes from the debris. Therefor, it won't treat what is the core issue. The blockage of blood to parts of the brain during an operation that causes arterial plague to be knocked from the artery walls.

More below

 

 

 

 

 

I totally agree that understanding TCM in relation to Western medicine is vitally important hence my constant push towards integration, something which the doctors in China are far ahead.

 

 

 

Can you please explain a little more about how fewer hormones can deplete yin and yang, sounds interesting.

 

 

Chris responds: Yin and Yang are displayed in the physical in a number of ways. One of those ways is hormone levels. When hormones fluctuate in concentration, you get a variety of symptoms. As you treat for the symptoms, hormone levels often change.

At a very base level, Yin is expressed in the levels of estrogen and to a lesser degree progesterone. If a women is lacking the manufacturing capabilities of adequate levels of Estrogen and Progesterone, her Yin levels will diminish respectively.

So to answer your question, if the person has arterial sclerosis to the degree that it affects the bodies capability to manufacture hormones, that could very well lead to yin deficiency. Which in turn can affect a persons sleep.

 

In conclusion. I am not trying to diminish the wisdom of classic TCM. It works. I am suggesting that as we learn more from a western perspective, we see how that might relate to what we know from an eastern perspective. There are situations were western physical intervention is appropriate. We should be willing to acknowledge when that may be the case. I don't believe we should be defending against western medicine. I believe we should be working with the newer understandings to bring the best possible solution to our patients.

 

Respectfully,

Chris Allison

 

 

 

Attilio

 

 

 

Musiclear wrote:

In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:23:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, attiliodalberto writes:

 

The symptoms of memory loss and anger could be related to a Heart

Blood deficiency. I wonder if they also have insomnia, poor

appetite, etc?

 

Attilio

 

If a person has "Heart Blood Deficiency", due arterial sclerosis, which is often the case, then the rest of the body would be suffering from blood deficiency also.

The brain and it's functions would suffer, creating memory loss. The glands would suffer producing fewer hormones that might effect the sleep and deplete yin and yang.

The same with another form of blood deficiency, anemia.

Both of these examples of a blood deficiency has very little to with the heart. Just the supply of blood and oxygen to the rest of the body.

I think this is similar to the confusion regarding spleen and pancreas.

TCM works absolutely within it's model. Understanding TCM as it relates to western science is going to be more and more important.

 

Just another two cents,

Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris.

 

The heart in TCM houses the mind, so the mind is not in the brain. The brain just process the actions of the Zangfu. So to an comparison, the body is like a computer. The brain is the microchip, the hardware is the Zangfu and the software is the emotions or beliefs held within the Zangfu. There is a notable condition in TCM called Heart Blood deficiency which uses the classic formula Gui Pi Tang (see the newly uploaded file on this – Gui Pi Tang).

 

A blood deficiency, amongst other things, leads to the symptoms of memory loss and a poor appetite, which relates to the post symptoms experienced by people having undergone a heart bypass. This surgery may cause a deficiency of Heart Qi and therefore Heart Blood causing the symptoms and syndrome. What I was trying to suggest is that maybe TCM could be used to strengthen the Heart prior to surgery and post surgery, lessening the side-effects of surgery and therefore benefiting the patient.

 

I totally agree that understanding TCM in relation to Western medicine is vitally important hence my constant push towards integration, something which the doctors in China are far ahead.

 

Can you please explain a little more about how fewer hormones can deplete yin and yang, sounds interesting.

 

AttilioMusiclear wrote:

In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:23:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, attiliodalberto writes:

The symptoms of memory loss and anger could be related to a Heart Blood deficiency. I wonder if they also have insomnia, poor appetite, etc? Attilio If a person has "Heart Blood Deficiency", due arterial sclerosis, which is often the case, then the rest of the body would be suffering from blood deficiency also. The brain and it's functions would suffer, creating memory loss. The glands would suffer producing fewer hormones that might effect the sleep and deplete yin and yang. The same with another form of blood deficiency, anemia. Both of these examples of a blood deficiency has very little to with the heart. Just the supply of blood and oxygen to the rest of the

body. I think this is similar to the confusion regarding spleen and pancreas. TCM works absolutely within it's model. Understanding TCM as it relates to western science is going to be more and more important. Just another two cents, Chris For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

Chris: What I was pointing out in the post I have copied below, is

there are

commonly understood physical reasons why " Heart blood deficiency "

could show up in a person when it has nothing to do with the heart.

Treating a heart blood deficiency caused by anemia with classic TCM

may work, but wouldn't it be a better idea to make sure the patient

got enough iron in the diet?

 

Atti: I see where the problem lies. I'm keeping my views strictly

directed towards TCM whereas you are integrating the two. Therefore,

when you state above that Heart Blood deficiency could show up in a

person when it has nothing to do with the Heart, I disagree. If for

example they had anaemia, then I believe, this would be categorised

as a blood deficient syndrome rather than a Heart blood deficiency. I

would then as you suggested, advice them to interest the amount of

iron in there diet and give them a blood tonifying formula.

 

Chris: Treating heart blood deficiency that was caused by arterial

sclerosis with classic TCM might work, but wouldn't a strong artery

cleansing program be more affective?

 

Atti: Yes, I agree. This isn't characteristic of a heart blood

deficiency but more like blood stasis. Again I would use a formula to

remove blood stasis.

 

Chris: I do not see the mind being at the core of the problem when

people suffer strokes from debris that close off blood circulation

during an operation.

 

Atti: I wasn't suggesting that the mind was the core issue, but

rather the heart which when deficient was displaying signs of a heart

blood deficiency.

 

Chris: In this particular situation though, I don't believe it will

stop the strokes from the debris. Therefore, it won't treat what is

the core issue. The blockage of blood to parts of the brain during

an operation that causes arterial plague to be knocked from the

artery walls.

 

Atti: Yes, I understand what your saying. Although I feel that by

treating the Heart blood pre and post surgery, this may decrease the

amount of arterial plaque building up. Otherwise, if it not the Heart

blood it would have to be blood in general, i.e. tonify the blood.

 

Chris: There are situations were western physical intervention is

appropriate.

 

Atti: I totally agree. I wouldn't want to see an acupuncturist if

I've just been in a car crash (heaven forbid).

 

With equal respect

 

Attilio