Guest guest Posted August 11, 2003 Report Share Posted August 11, 2003 In a message dated 8/10/2003 2:25:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alonmarcus writes: hi, are you saying there are fixed cancer pathways & the reason why people get cancer. please elaborate >>>>The reasons why people get cancer are probably very complicated. What they are saying is that once a patient gets cancer the pathways by which he does are beginning to be understood in great detail. No longer it is a simple lack of the body "defenses" not recognizing cancer, but particular pathways that fail or get activated. They apparently made great advances in understanding these. They have also made great advances at designing drugs that act very locally on a single key step in such processes and thus do not have as much systemic effects which is the reason for side-effects Alon While in school we had an oncologist teach a class. He brought in some slides of cells in various stages of stress. The presentation started out with healthy cells, then cells under stress. Then a greater degree of stress and on. There were five or six stages involved in the presentation all the way to the cancer version of the original cell. What he claimed and I agree with is that the cells will come back to the original healthy state if the reason for the stress is removed and it has a healthy supply of nutrients along with circulation to remove metabolic waste. It may be a stretch to expect some cancer cell to revert back, but I have talked with some who state absolutely the possibility in some forms of cancer. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2003 Report Share Posted August 11, 2003 Herbal medicine recognises dozens of herbs that have anticancer effects, and simultaneously boost the effects of cytotoxic chemotherapy, or radiotherapy and counter their adverse effects! These herbs have marked immunostimulant, adaptogenic and antioxidant effects - examples are Renshen, Wujiapi/Wujiashen and Rhodiola rosea Rx.>>>>Yes but in reality CM does not do well with cancer so that research must continue Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2003 Report Share Posted August 11, 2003 ACUPUNCTURE I BELIEVE CAN HAVE SOME BENEFICIALEFFECT ON CANCER PATHOLOGIES ANAND --- ALON MARCUS <alonmarcus wrote: > Herbal medicine recognises dozens of herbs that have > anticancer > effects, and simultaneously boost the effects of > cytotoxic > chemotherapy, or radiotherapy and counter their > adverse effects! > These herbs have marked immunostimulant, adaptogenic > and > antioxidant effects - examples are Renshen, > Wujiapi/Wujiashen > and Rhodiola rosea Rx. > > >>>>Yes but in reality CM does not do well with > cancer so that research must continue > Alon ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 ACUPUNCTURE I BELIEVE CAN HAVE SOME BENEFICIALEFFECTON CANCER PATHOLOGIESANAND>>>>Both acupu and herbs can Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 dear alon, i am not sure of your background. but i have lost faith in wm. they seem to talk a lot but do very little. they have been claiming tht thre is a cure for cancer round the corner. but nothing has happened. they keep identifying new stuff-so called breakthroughs. but nothing happens. i believe cancer can be completely cured. but not at all by wm. i think a lot of personal efort & reversal of the body damage has to be undertaken to reverse the process. like everything - its the process that is the issue. & every process is reversivble. anand --- Musiclear wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2003 2:25:59 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > alonmarcus writes: > > > hi, are you saying there are fixed cancer pathways > & > > the reason why people get cancer. > > please elaborate > > >>>>The reasons why people get cancer are probably > very complicated. What > > they are saying is that once a patient gets cancer > the pathways by which he > > does are beginning to be understood in great > detail. No longer it is a simple > > lack of the body " defenses " not recognizing > cancer, but particular pathways > > that fail or get activated. They apparently made > great advances in understanding > > these. They have also made great advances at > designing drugs that act very > > locally on a single key step in such processes and > thus do not have as much > > systemic effects which is the reason for > side-effects > > > > Alon > > > > While in school we had an oncologist teach a > class. He brought in > some slides of cells in various stages of stress. > The presentation started out > with healthy cells, then cells under stress. Then a > greater degree of stress > and on. There were five or six stages involved in > the presentation all the way > to the cancer version of the original cell. > What he claimed and I agree with is that the > cells will come back to > the original healthy state if the reason for the > stress is removed and it has a > healthy supply of nutrients along with circulation > to remove metabolic waste. > It may be a stretch to expect some cancer cell to > revert back, but I have > talked with some who state absolutely the > possibility in some forms of cancer. > > Chris > > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 but ihave lost faith in wm. they seem to talk a lot but dovery little.they have been claiming tht thre is a cure for cancerround the corner. but nothing has happened.>>>>>>First, there have been a lot of advances already. Both my father and mother in law had cancers. She had a very aggressive poorly differentiated lymphoma and he had empilary CA. Both are highly deadly. Both are alive and well one 15 years post surgical intervention the other 10 years post high dose CHOP. So there have been advances. Now the person i talked to is right at the forefront of the research, extremely smart, clinically experienced. Now as far as clinical reality CM does not have a good record in cancer (not that WM has a very good one either) but even in China it is WM that is the main therapy used to treat cancer. CM is used as an adjunct Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 i think there is alot in tad ch med which can be used .. the principles are the same. i have acombination of alot of things which include breathing, meditation, chanting, water, macrobiotic cooking, juices, antioxidants, shivambu, & positive thinking. i have been working on this for awhile & believe that its the mental makeup & attitude that makes the essential difference. just look at it this way. if you have found 2 success stories with wm & surgery there is n reason why others do not respond. a lot of pts get surgery & then they continue to get metastases even thought the surgeon insists they have taken the lot out. i think we forget that its the process that is important no tthe end result which is cancer. wm focuses on the end result. cm & or med focuses on the process. anand --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > but i > have lost faith in wm. they seem to talk a lot but > do > very little. > they have been claiming tht thre is a cure for > cancer > round the corner. but nothing has happened. > >>>>>>First, there have been a lot of advances > already. Both my father and mother in law had > cancers. She had a very aggressive poorly > differentiated lymphoma and he had empilary CA. Both > are highly deadly. Both are alive and well one 15 > years post surgical intervention the other 10 years > post high dose CHOP. So there have been advances. > Now the person i talked to is right at the forefront > of the research, extremely smart, clinically > experienced. > Now as far as clinical reality CM does not have a > good record in cancer (not that WM has a very good > one either) but even in China it is WM that is the > main therapy used to treat cancer. CM is used as an > adjunct > Alon ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 i think we forget that its the process that isimportant no tthe end result which is cancer. wmfocuses on the end result.>>>I agree with that. But lets not dismiss everything, there are advances being made as well as a lot of failures Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Please help. This is a request to take me off you list. I do not want to receive your comment.I do not have the time to read them , In addition, they are so many and many of them have no meaning for my practice. I apreciate your help. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Instructions on how to are contained at the bottom of every single email! how obvious do i have to make it? and how many times do i have to say it?Yvonne Abukarma <bellayvonne wrote: Please help. This is a request to take me off you list. I do not want to receive your comment.I do not have the time to read them , In addition, they are so many and many of them have no meaning for my practice. I apreciate your help. Thank you For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 This must be the bane of every list owner that ever ran an email group ! Sammy Attilio D'Alberto [attiliodalberto]13 August 2003 19:09Chinese Medicine Subject: Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Theory Instructions on how to are contained at the bottom of every single email! how obvious do i have to make it? and how many times do i have to say it?Yvonne Abukarma <bellayvonne wrote: Please help. This is a request to take me off you list. I do not want to receive your comment.I do not have the time to read them , In addition, they are so many and many of them have no meaning for my practice. I apreciate your help. Thank you For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 So, so true. If i ever close this group, it will because of this reason. ===== Attilio www.chinesedoctor.co.uk Chinese Traditional Medicine Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook. http://calendar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 Hi All, & Hi Anand & Alon > ACUPUNCTURE I BELIEVE CAN HAVE SOME BENEFICIALEFFECT > ON CANCER PATHOLOGIES ANAND There is some evidence for this, mainly anecdotal. I wrote: > Herbal medicine recognises dozens of herbs that have anticancer > effects, and simultaneously boost the effects of cytotoxic > chemotherapy, or radiotherapy and counter their adverse effects! > These herbs have marked immunostimulant, adaptogenic and > antioxidant effects - examples are Renshen, Wujiapi/Wujiashen and > Rhodiola rosea Rx. Alon replied: > Yes but in reality CM does not do well with cancer so that research > must continue Alon Research must continue in ALL areas, including WM! Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 research is important. CM does resaerch in the macro world, while WM does research in th micro world. time has shown that inspite of rubbishing CM & alternative therapies for over 50 yeasr, the hen has come home to roost. the micro research model is showing only limited results & a wholistic approach & macro approach to research is being accepted. so we should get some good remedies coming through soon. i feel a wholistic approach involving - shivambu, water therapy, acupuncture, diet, meditation, yoga,pranayama,macrobiotics, fresh food & juices, herbs & flavours as per CM, etc which put all together in the correct proportions will benefit cancer pts alot. what are people's views about this thought. anand --- < wrote: > Hi All, & Hi Anand & Alon > > > ACUPUNCTURE I BELIEVE CAN HAVE SOME > BENEFICIALEFFECT > > ON CANCER PATHOLOGIES ANAND > > There is some evidence for this, mainly anecdotal. > > I wrote: > > Herbal medicine recognises dozens of herbs that > have anticancer > > effects, and simultaneously boost the effects of > cytotoxic > > chemotherapy, or radiotherapy and counter their > adverse effects! > > These herbs have marked immunostimulant, > adaptogenic and > > antioxidant effects - examples are Renshen, > Wujiapi/Wujiashen and > > Rhodiola rosea Rx. > > Alon replied: > > Yes but in reality CM does not do well with cancer > so that research > > must continue Alon > > Research must continue in ALL areas, including WM! > > > Best regards, > > > WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount > Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > WWW : > Email: < > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: > 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > WWW : > http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > Email: < > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: > 0] > ===== Anand Bapat Pain Management Specialist Sports Injury Specialist Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville 0402 472 897 ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://uk.messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Because here the drug companies have a stronger HOLD than anywhere else in the world. R In a message dated 8/24/03 2:37:21 AM, vbirang writes: << This is not news in european countries. The comprehensive approach involving a marriage between altenative therapies and western for the best care in cases of chonic diseases. Germany, sweeden, austria etc... Hate to say but we are a little to slow.The question is: Why ???????? Vanessa >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 This is not news in european countries. The comprehensive approach involving a marriage between altenative therapies and western for the best care in cases of chonic diseases. Germany, sweeden, austria etc... Hate to say but we are a little to slow.The question is: Why ???????? Vanessa > i feel a wholistic approach involving - > shivambu, water therapy, acupuncture, diet, > meditation, yoga,pranayama,macrobiotics, fresh food > & > juices, herbs & flavours as per CM, etc which put > all > together in the correct proportions will benefit > cancer pts alot. > what are people's views about this thought. > anand > > > --- < wrote: > Hi > All, & Hi Anand & Alon > > > > > ACUPUNCTURE I BELIEVE CAN HAVE SOME > > BENEFICIALEFFECT > > > ON CANCER PATHOLOGIES ANAND > > > > There is some evidence for this, mainly anecdotal. > > > > I wrote: > > > Herbal medicine recognises dozens of herbs that > > have anticancer > > > effects, and simultaneously boost the effects of > > cytotoxic > > > chemotherapy, or radiotherapy and counter their > > adverse effects! > > > These herbs have marked immunostimulant, > > adaptogenic and > > > antioxidant effects - examples are Renshen, > > Wujiapi/Wujiashen and > > > Rhodiola rosea Rx. > > > > Alon replied: > > > Yes but in reality CM does not do well with > cancer > > so that research > > > must continue Alon > > > > Research must continue in ALL areas, including WM! > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount > > Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > > WWW : > > Email: < > > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: > > 0] > > > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > > WWW : > > http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > > Email: < > > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: > > 0] > > > > ===== > Anand Bapat > Pain Management Specialist > Sports Injury Specialist > Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville > 0402 472 897 > > > > > ______________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE > Messenger http://uk.messenger./ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Dear Vanessa, my experience with Sweden is that they are lacking far behind both in know how and awareness of " Alternative " and " Complimentary " medicine. And, one of the reason is that the conceptual principal and the actual acting of those infrastructures are not yet well developed. There is no Wiseman dictionary in Swedish no extensive monographs of Qi in Swedish language and so forth. Much is based on popular ideas and convenient ideas. Hence theory is lacking drastically and all its embedded practices which may appear as cultural bound but seam more dependant on concepts and principal to approaches... That is why in the long run books and study materials of various medium are better then say bringing herbs to a place in my opinion. (I am thinking of a request for opinion what to bring to Nepal?), because people will either develop the products and or use local variety and so forth... This reasoning is not exclusive as material aid in access to the acumoxa Chinese medicines utilities is of course excellent to... Well to regress to Sweden. Historically I think it is behind because it has a smaller Asian population amongst other things. The belief in The western cultural superiority is very strong in Sweden which prevents for the " first " step to really take place and so forth... There are however three or two schools of Chinese medicine that in comparison of just five years ago is looking much more sophisticated and that is a great start... (not sure if medical Chinese is part of the courses) Maybe there are someone on the list that is more up to date about Sweden? Marco Vanessa: comprehensive approach involving a marriage between altenative therapies and western for the best care in cases of chonic diseases. ...., sweeden, ... etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2004 Report Share Posted February 2, 2004 By the way Jason let me share with you one of the first patients i have treated in privet practice. This was a young women with stage 4 poorly differentiated lymphoma. She refused WM treatment and was given 2 months to live. In short with TCM she lived close to 10 years. So as you can see right from the beginning of my practice i had great respect to TCM seen many " miracles " but also many failures. I think we need to pay more attention to failures than successes. At the same time my motherinlaw also had a very aggressive type of poorly differentiated lymphoma. She opted to do very high dose CHOP and she is now well 10 years later. I have no particular attachment to any system of medicine just to patient care. By the way I am not sure you have been seeing my different uses of CM and TCM. TCM has done some major developments and much assessment of what should be considered relevant and what should not. This has been highly criticized Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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