Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/2003 9:46:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, attiliodalberto writes: Atti: Can you explain more about this. Phlegm in the mind or rather phlegm misting the heart orifices is mental confusion. We were taught about "phlegm misting the mind" as well as "phlegm misting the heart orifices" in my training. Substantial phlegm can give rise to insubstantial phlegm, the latter being the phlegm that would "mist the mind" which would cause confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/2003 10:29:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, inandor writes: I am not sure at all whether phlegm in the mind can cause obsessions. In my understanding, obsessive tendancies can arise from a spleen qi xu as can lack of concentration and focus. Obsessive thought can also damage the spleen qi. I have not, however, heard of phlegm misting the mind having direct a link to obsession. More that phlegm misting the mind was more related to confusion, fogginess and depression. Both obsession and phlegm misting the mind have a relationship and root in the spleen, one due to the depletion of the spleen qi, the other due to the result of an advanced spleen qi xu. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/2003 11:00:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, attiliodalberto writes: Yes i understand that, but Geo was making reference to phlegm in the brain. It was the brain i was questioning as the mind is in the heart. ah , I see. I must have misread or misconstrued. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/03 3:18:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, attiliodalberto writes: the negative aspects of the emotions, i.e. anger and grief, will upset mainly the Liver more so than any other organ. I really have to disagree a bit with this. I have found often direct correlation's between lung symptoms/patterns and grief for example. Also the heart has separate emotional affects and I find that the zang/fu emotional considerations definitely play out in practice. For me obsessive compulsive behavior usually has a spleen component but also there is a big fear/anger piece which is recognized in western psychology also. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Geo: In CM Spleen is responsible for the " movement " of Qi in the body, Atti: The functions of the spleen as laid out by Maaciocia are: 1. governs transformation and transportation 2. controls blood 3. controls the muscles and the four limbs therefore the spleen does not really control the movement of qi but it rather the source of qi and blood, if your looking at it in those terms. As in if there is a deficinecy of qi and blood there will be stagnation and a lost of movement. Strictly speaking the liver controls the movement of qi. Geo: it is many times responsible for something called " phlegm " in the body, mind and emotions. Atti: Yes the spleen is the most important organ in relation to phelgm amongst the two others the lung and kidney. but again the liver is responsible for emotions, the spleen is more pensiveness. Geo: It may be responsible for something called " foggy mind " or " confused thoughts " , obsessions (when pleghm accumulates in the brain). Atti: Can you explain more about this. Phlegm in the mind or rather phlegm misting the heart orifices is mental confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Geo: In CM Spleen is responsible for the "movement" of Qi in the body, Atti: The functions of the spleen as laid out by Maaciocia are:1. governs transformation and transportation2. controls blood3. controls the muscles and the four limbs geo> I understand that this is the way Maciocia sees it. In fact I would say that muscle movements (tonicity) are more in the field of the Liver then Spleen. The amount of flesh (muscle volume) seems to me to be more the field of the Spleen. Atti> therefore the spleen does not really control the movement of qi but it rather the source of qi and blood, geo> Sorry... I had "nutrients" in mind and not "Qi". Although some would call these nutrients at this stage as already Qi. So after the Stomach digested the food, Spleen takes it over for further transformation and transportation of these nutrients to the whole organism. This is the physical aspect. But we must be aware of the fact that ALL Officials have their functions in the physical, mental, emotional and also in a field that could be called as spiritual (perceived through the eyes e.g.) Atti> if your looking at it in those terms. As in if there is a deficinecy of qi and blood there will be stagnation and a lost of movement. Strictly speaking the liver controls the movement of qi. geo> I understand, yes. Geo: it is many times responsible for something called "phlegm" in the body, mind and emotions. Atti: Yes the spleen is the most important organ in relation to phelgm amongst the two others the lung and kidney. but again the liver is responsible for emotions, the spleen is more pensiveness. geo> I don't agree at all with this. All Officials have an emotional aspect. Wood and Anger (or lack of it), Fire and Joy (or lack of it), Earth and Need for Sympathy (or inability to receive it), Metal and Grief, Water and Fear. Just as all Officials have a mental aspect. Geo: It may be responsible for something called "foggy mind" or "confused thoughts" , obsessions (when pleghm accumulates in the brain). Atti: Can you explain more about this. Phlegm in the mind or rather phlegm misting the heart orifices is mental confusion. geo> You may be right here Atti. I was speaking in a very fast manner. I am not sure at all whether phlegm in the mind can cause obsessions. What I know is that Earth people are more prone to obsessions then other elements. Sorry... I will be more careful onwards. In fact I was more focused in comparing the eastern and western understanding of "Spleen" - on the immense distance between their perspective - so much that they almost seem unrelated. For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 > > > Atti: Can you explain more about this. Phlegm in the mind or rather > > phlegm misting the heart orifices is mental confusion. > > > > We were taught about " phlegm misting the mind " as well as " phlegm misting the > heart orifices " in my training. Substantial phlegm can give rise to > insubstantial phlegm, the latter being the phlegm that would " mist the mind " which > would cause confusion. Yes i understand that, but Geo was making reference to phlegm in the brain. It was the brain i was questioning as the mind is in the heart. Atti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 > The amount of flesh (muscle volume) seems to me to be more the field of the > Spleen. Do you think that is so in both building and wasting? Some Spleen tonics are said to build muscle I understand, but muscle wasting is not a spleen pathology is it? Or is it - and if so which type? All the wasting conditions I can think of seem to correlate to yin deficiency? > geo> I don't agree at all with this. All Officials have an emotional > aspect. Wood and Anger (or lack of it), Fire and Joy (or lack of it), Could anger not negate joy? And if so would that translate to specific effects of Liver on heart? Earth > and Need for Sympathy (or inability to receive it), Could you relate changes in these two to specific spleen syndromes please? Many thanks Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 geo> I don't agree at all with this. All Officials have an emotional > aspect. Wood and Anger (or lack of it), Fire and Joy (or lack of it), Earth > and Need for Sympathy (or inability to receive it), Metal and Grief, > Water and Fear. Just as all Officials have a mental aspect. Atti: Yes of course, all the Zangfu have a corresponding emotion, but i think in reality, the negative aspects of the emotions, i.e. anger and grief, will upset mainly the Liver more so than any other organ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Yes i understand that, but Geo was making reference to phlegm in the brain. It was the brain i was questioning as the mind is in the heart.Atti geo> Ahh...so this is what we question...Correct me if I am wrong. The brain is where it is: in the head. Now if we consider the localized functions of this brain in a particular individual and call it "mind", something that seems to be a complex of emotion/thought, then the seat of this mind is in the heart. Indeed most severe emotional/mental dysfunction - although one can not know for sure where the origin is - have the heart involved in one way or the other. The other way is also true: severe heart imbalances - although one can not tell where the origin is w/o other diagnostic considerations - have strong emotional symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 I am not sure at all whether phlegm in the mind can cause obsessions. In my understanding, obsessive tendancies can arise from a spleen qi xu as can lack of concentration and focus. Obsessive thought can also damage the spleen qi. I have not, however, heard of phlegm misting the mind having direct a link to obsession. More that phlegm misting the mind was more related to confusion, fogginess and depression. Both obsession and phlegm misting the mind have a relationship and root in the spleen, one due to the depletion of the spleen qi, the other due to the result of an advanced spleen qi xu. Maya geo> Yes, thanks. Seems quite clear to me. For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 geo> I don't agree at all with this. All Officials have an emotional> aspect. Wood and Anger (or lack of it), Fire and Joy (or lack of it), Earth> and Need for Sympathy (or inability to receive it), Metal and Grief,> Water and Fear. Just as all Officials have a mental aspect.Atti: Yes of course, all the Zangfu have a corresponding emotion, but i think in reality, the negative aspects of the emotions, i.e. anger and grief, will upset mainly the Liver more so than any other organ. geo> Atti, I am 5 Element pt, so that's the particular perspective I am most familiar with. The fact that a person reacts with anger too easily, or is unable to express it (a more common situation in modern man), already means that there should be something wrong with the Liver or perhaps Gallbladder Officials. It seems that under some traumatic situation early in life the Wood element - in this exempla - was compromised. From there on the person is more and more unable to express anger properly. The same for grief and Metal. But this is a discussion that will lead us to the interesting concept of CF (causative factor according Worsley) or CT (constitutional type according Lonny Jarret) - the constitutionally unbalanced element each one of us seem to have since early childhood. For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 I think you could frame phlegm as a causative factor for obsession due to its sticky and tenacious nature. It produces a stuckness in the systems it comes in contact with, as in the old saw "when it's strange it's phlegm". Strange and contradictory pathogenic influences can pile up in the body because phlegm holds them and insulates them from canceling one another out, just like sweet, earth based zhi gan cao hold together formulas with contrary functions. While the brain is differentiated from the heart in some cases I don't think that I have ever seen a pattern described as "brain (as in the "sea of marrow") phlegm", though I suppose glial tumors are more or less phlegm like. The heart orifices are the openings through which perception reaches the heart/spirit, phlegm misting the mind describes these orifices being closed or obscured leading to a clouded perception, or unconsciousness. In some traditional illustrations the heart has five "spigots" which connect to each of the five senses. 痰迷心窍 tan mi xin qiao is phlegm confounding the heart orifices in Wisemanese. Xin qiao are the heart spigots. Mi is used in compounds dealing with being lost (the traveling radical with the character for rice as a phonetic), and by extension, enchanted, or otherwise deranged, though I don't know that this implies obsession. There are some other etiologies for phlegm misting the mind, other than slow accumulation. Mental shock can dissipate the heart's qi (leading to unconsciousness), the qi's space is filled with phlegm, leading to derangement, accounting for sudden madness due to negative experiences. I suppose one would have to presume either a heart vacuity (leading to susceptibility to the shock) and the presence of phlegm to fill the space. While foggy mindedness can be thought of as a sign of phlegm or damp, it seems often as not that there is a blood xu with the spleen xu that creates this sort of problem. They frequently coexist, as nature abhors a vacuum in China just like here. In gui pi tang the coexistence of these factors is reflected by yuan zhi in the formula (which we could look at kind of like fu ling and ze xie in liu wei di huang wan). I would say that lack of concentration (as a relative xu state) would be more indicative of blood deficiency, whereas fixation would be a repletion (of phlegm). I have seen associations of the spleen with xing 形, meaning form. This can be interpreted to mean that the spleen governs the perception of form as well as the form of the body (as opposed to muscular strength which I believe is more a function of "sinews" and the domain of the liver). When describing the state of health in old Chinese stories people are frequently described as fat, or plump, and robust, which is the flesh that is generated by the spleen, while the sinews aren't talked about In terms of perception I took this to imply that the role of the mind (yi意) as a sorter of things is governed by perception of form and category, when it becomes stuck, forms are not what they ought to be, and one can become fixated (seeing one form and imposing it arbitrarily), or deranged. I think this is an analog for the spleens function of breaking down flood and sorting the pure and dross, as the byproduct of this breaking down is phlegm and damp, which apparently reinforce that type of thinking (was that circular?). In any case, one has to separate yi from shen. When the yi is disturbed we have a situation where garbage is going into the mind, while when the shen is disturbed the mind itself is not functioning well (turning its own input into garbage). As for phlegm and depression, they are mutually creating, since qi stagnation produces phlegm and vice versa. I will now go affix my "I pause for pedantry" bumper sticker. I take full responsibility for anything idiotic I might have said above or in previous posts, as I speak without the vast clinical experience many of you all have to back me up. Yours truly, Par Scott -I am not sure at all whether phlegm in the mind can cause obsessions. In my understanding, obsessive tendancies can arise from a spleen qi xu as can lack of concentration and focus. Obsessive thought can also damage the spleen qi. I have not, however, heard of phlegm misting the mind having direct a link to obsession. More that phlegm misting the mind was more related to confusion, fogginess and depression. Both obsession and phlegm misting the mind have a relationship and root in the spleen, one due to the depletion of the spleen qi, the other due to the result of an advanced spleen qi xu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 In a message dated 8/9/2003 1:26:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, parufus writes: I will now go affix my "I pause for pedantry" bumper sticker. I take full responsibility for anything idiotic I might have said above or in previous posts, as I speak without the vast clinical experience many of you all have to back me up. LOL Thank you, Par, for the thoughts and for the giggle. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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