Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 This bothered me all day. My comment was a bit monstrous, which it was, but mostly nagging me was the feeling I totally misread your observation too. So I found I did. So I dedicated a good act to you,Emmanuel. When a stranger stopped me on my bike for money today, I gave them a good bit (which isn't much for many people, but it is to me. It was the kind of giving when later you think you must be crazy), and it made their day or so. Your post was good. peace-fran Chinese Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym> wrote: > look, the chemical to energy therapuetic conection will maybe Never be quite satisfactory. BUT, the long term applications of TCM herbal therapy have fostered and/or eliminated useful clinical models and data. Just like the supposed 3rd(?) level (on population) drug trials are supposed to validate, but western drs worldwide never report adverse effects for fear of being bounced. (like many of TCM dr already are used to. so don't give me that old crap. grow up.) > > Emmanuel Segmen <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Hi Anand, > > I'm a biochemist who was hired by Min Tong Herbs in 1991 where I worked until 1994, December. Part of my work was to promulgate the notion that molecular markers are just that ... markers. They are not " active ingredients " unless specific bio-assays are done in human clinical trials to show that those molecules do precisely what the whole formula does. This has not been shown with any formula that I know of nor even attempted with the markers of any formula. Nor have all of the molecules been characterized from any one herb extract much less any one formula extract. The whole plethora of marketing in the early 1990s regarding standardized herbs and levels of specific markers was just that ... marketing. Not science ... and definitely not Chinese medicine. If you do a Medline search now for effective actions of CM formulas you'll find thousands upon thousands of papers. The look at formulas and clinical outcomes or sometimes at specific effects on tissues or clinical lab data. > If the mechanism of action of the formula is referred to, they generally say " unknown " . Back in the early 1990s Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs was one of the pioneers for establishing molecular markers for each of his single herb extracts in order to qualify his company under international GMP rules. It was never his intention to use this information regarding markers to sell herbs, but rather to do responsible GMP work in his factory. > > The work you suggest regarding analytical chemistry is a long term project for a whole biochemistry lab. Also you will have to cope with the reality that changes in diet, exercise and a multitude of other factors will greatly effect the presence of molecules in the urine. That's why only a very limited number of molecules in urine are ever tested for in pathology labs with the hope of seeing something clinically significant. Your notion of " active ingredients " also has to be looked at from so many other standpoints. For example, you only know of " activity " with regard to current research. How will you test what is active? For instance some steroid molecules like estrogen achieve greater activity in the presence of progesterone. How will you test for synergies and counter-synergies? If you have only 100 molecules, try calculating 100 factorial to see the number of molecular interactions. That's why we don't do research on the molecular ingredients of herbs formulas except to > test individual molecules ... which then have little or no meaning with regard to the formula. No reasonable scientist would imagine that one out of a thousands molecules is the reason the herb formula works. Which guy won World War II? Wouldn't you be put out a bit if it was determined that the guy sitting next you in the office with the " active ingredient " of your company? I'm just joking around and don't mean to be rude. I hope this stream of thought is helpful to you. > > Emmanuel Segmen > - > anand bapat > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:47 PM > Re: Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: (TCM) discussions-lon > > > hi, > we have been guided to chromatography & that seems the > best option at present. but there are limitations as i > have been informed so far. > the problem is one needs to know what are the > ingredients so that the appropriate columns can be > attached to the chromatography equipment. > what i have been informed is also that the > chromatograph will give us a level of the item but not > be able to quantify exactly. we will need to compare > with a pure item & then make gestimates of how much > quantity there may be for the identified items. > so still in abit of limbo re: trying this strategy as > we nhave found great results with clinical work with > shivambu. but we are unable to try & document the > active ingredients that are influencing change for the > patient. > seems abit of a stab in the dark. besides > chromatography equipment is quite expensive. > thanks a lot. see if you can help any more > bye anand > > > > --- Musiclear@a... wrote: > In a message dated > 8/7/2003 4:41:34 PM Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > acubapat writes: > > > > > HELP HELP HELP NEEDED > > > > > > hi, > > > i study shivambu - urine therapy or in the west > > > referred to as auto urine therapy. > > > we do have a site called shivambu > > > since we are having afreee for all discussion - i > > had > > > problems with evaluation of urine. > > > there are over 100 odd ingredients in urine which > > i > > > need to quantify. the present testing regime > > available > > > is only testing about 20 of these ingredients. > > > does anyone know a means of testing the urine > > > completely for all its ingredients. > > > please help if you can. > > > thanks > > > amnand > > > > There is a process called chromatography that > > that gives the compounds > > and how much of the compounds are in a liquid. Many > > herbal companies use it > > to verify the authenticity of a plant along with > > quality. > > You could do a search of labs in your area > > and see if you have someone > > local to do it for you. > > > > Good luck, > > Chris > > > > PS This is of interest to me also. Yo could > > pass the results along. > > > > ===== > Anand Bapat > Pain Management Specialist > Sports Injury Specialist > Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville Clinics > > > ____________________ __ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > Messenger http://uk.messenger./ > > > For practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. > > If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. from individual to a daily digest or none then visit the groups' homepage: Chinese Medicine/ From there, click `edit my membership on the right hand side' and adjust accordingly. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Hi Fran, Ken and All, Very cool, indeed. I also agree with your recent post, Ken, that stopped you from packing. My son is visiting me for this next week so I'm taking the opportunity with my name in the subject line to say I'll be mostly off list for the next week or so. I'll be responding more heartily in another week. Perhaps I'll set you up, Ken, at my computer to get fiesty on CHA and TCM when you visit. All the Best to All, Emmanuel Segmen - ykcul_ritsym Chinese Medicine Friday, August 08, 2003 8:19 PM Re: Traditional (TCM) Re: Emmanuel This bothered me all day. My comment was a bit monstrous, which it was, but mostly nagging me was the feeling I totally misread your observation too. So I found I did. So I dedicated a good act to you,Emmanuel. When a strangerstopped me on my bike for money today, I gave them a good bit (which isn't much for many people, but it is to me. It was the kind of giving when later you think you must be crazy), and it made their day or so. Your post was good. peace-fran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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