Introduction and obsession

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

I have been kindly invited to join this list, and recognise some names from

elsewhere. I hope in time to be able to join in some of the interesting

discussions, but for the moment I am afraid I have something of a one track

mind, out of necessity. I am a lay student of TCM trying to find treatment

for a complex equine case who has both WM and TCM practitioners baffled.

 

I would be grateful of any information, insight, research or experience

anyone can give me on treatment of congenital Kidney deficiency, theoretical

or otherwise. I am particularly interested in any 'crossover' research that

looks at both TCM and WM viewpoints of the same conditions - Cushings,

Addisons, Conn's - Kidney Yin deficiency and Kd Yin and Yang deficiency. I

have found some on PubMed, but I know there is a lot more in Chinese I

cannot get access too.

 

The horse's TCM differentiation is given as Liver Stagnation/excess/heat,

with Spleen deficiency, and Kidney deficiency as a root, mostly yin, some

yang. But he has reacted badly to all attempts to treat the root, despite

responding well to liver 'soothing' and blood moving, gentle spleen support.

 

His bloods show low/normal ACTH, high cortisol and high insulin (both

recently markedly worsened) and low free thyroxine. I wonder if anyone can

confirm these two patterns match? Horses do not get adrenal tumours

apparently.

 

Many thanks for any thoughts, however small, on or off list. I can email a

full pattern description/history if required.

 

Jackie Taylor

[Guest guest]

 

Dear TCM People,

 

I am new here and on the same 'horse list' as the correspondent Jackie, below mentions.

 

I think Jackie has forgotten to mention the most important factor in this case and it is as follows:

 

The horse was castrated at a crucial age in its development. *

 

Perhaps if this issue could be addressed in a more direct way she would not continue to go around in circles looking for remedies that are inappropriate. For example I believe it is pointless to attempt to regulate 'Yin deficiency' by adjusting existing parameters in a situation where a real physical injury has occurred and loss of essential being (Jing) has been suffered.

 

Going back over the many emails on this subject on the previous list it seems the horse was castrated because he was displaying precocious sexual behaviour and was an 'annoyance' or 'inconvenience'. I feel this may have been a 'misdiagnosis' from the start, but it seems to me that the obvious remedy which is to apply testosterone supplements will not find favour with the owner for fear that further 'antisocial behaviour' by the horse might ensue.

 

 

I have tried to point this out on the 'other list' but everyone there seems to be so wound up with this obsession that no-one can see the wood for the trees. I hope we do not go into a similar spin here.

 

Sincerely,

 

G.A. "Sammy" Bates

BA., BSc., MSc., PGCE.

 

From the hot and humid Midshires of England

 

 

* Castration can lead to a wide variety of symptoms in males. In a young male who has not reached adrenarche castration may simply mean a readjustment of hormonal balance, the youngster will grow up a 'eunuch' with undeveloped male sex organs, but otherwise fairly normal. There are examples in TCM of some very famous and effective eunuchs who have worked themselves up from slavery to high rank. However, in the male who has passed puberty castration can lead to loss of anabolic function generally: for example decreased muscles mass and impaired mental functioning, with physical and emotional side effects such as premature arthritis and depression. I think castration may be an unrecognised problem when performed during adrenarche, that is when the young creature is redefining the 'hormonal mileau' that will be with it for life as a functioning male. If this crucial stage is interfered with the creature cannot adapt to become a eunuch, and yet cannot be a functioning male either. Herein lies Jackies 'horse problem'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

jackie [Jackie]09 August 2003 01:03Chinese Medicine Subject: Introduction and obsessionHello all,I have been kindly invited to join this list, and recognise some names fromelsewhere. I hope in time to be able to join in some of the interestingdiscussions, but for the moment I am afraid I have something of a one trackmind, out of necessity. I am a lay student of TCM trying to find treatmentfor a complex equine case who has both WM and TCM practitioners baffled.I would be grateful of any information, insight, research or experienceanyone can give me on treatment of congenital Kidney deficiency, theoreticalor otherwise. I am particularly interested in any 'crossover' research thatlooks at both TCM and WM viewpoints of the same conditions - Cushings,Addisons, Conn's - Kidney Yin deficiency and Kd Yin and Yang deficiency. Ihave found some on PubMed, but I know there is a lot more in Chinese Icannot get access too.The horse's TCM differentiation is given as Liver Stagnation/excess/heat,with Spleen deficiency, and Kidney deficiency as a root, mostly yin, someyang. But he has reacted badly to all attempts to treat the root, despiteresponding well to liver 'soothing' and blood moving, gentle spleen support.His bloods show low/normal ACTH, high cortisol and high insulin (bothrecently markedly worsened) and low free thyroxine. I wonder if anyone canconfirm these two patterns match? Horses do not get adrenal tumoursapparently.Many thanks for any thoughts, however small, on or off list. I can email afull pattern description/history if required.Jackie TaylorFor practitioners, students and those interested in TCM. Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam messages or flame another member. If you want to change the way you receive email message, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, then visit the groups’ homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Click ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

[Guest guest]

> I think Jackie has forgotten to mention the most important factor in this

> case and it is as follows:

>

> The horse was castrated at a crucial age in its development. *

 

Hi Sammy,

 

I didn't realise you still believed this. But can you tell me why he would

have had the syndrome before castration, if that were the case? And why his

mother would have developed the same pattern at all?

 

She suffered virilization akin to human PCOS, but that may have benefitted

the gelding because she is the only horse ever to gain dominance over him,

though tenuous and requiring constant reinforcement her entire life.

 

> 'Yin deficiency' by adjusting existing parameters in a situation where a

> real physical injury has occurred and loss of essential being (Jing) has

> been suffered.

 

I did try adding more jing/essence tonics at your suggestion. It was doing

this that precipitated the current laminitis in 48 hours flat, from which he

has not been able to recover yet, some 7 weeks later. How adverse a response

would you need to disprove the theory?

 

> Going back over the many emails on this subject on the previous list it

> seems the horse was castrated because he was displaying precocious sexual

> behaviour and was an 'annoyance' or 'inconvenience'.

 

Not quite. He was in danger of getting other people's immature fillies in

foal, or injuring them. He was turned out solely with other young colts of

his own age instead, but continued to 'worry' after fillies in the distance

so much he was losing condition, and the stud he lived on insisted he needed

gelding for his own sake. I had wanted to leave him until he was two, so I

was bitterly disappointed, but I have to admit he thrived for months

thereafter and was able to go out with the herd.

 

I feel this may have

> been a 'misdiagnosis' from the start, but it seems to me that the obvious

> remedy which is to apply testosterone supplements will not find favour

with

> the owner for fear that further 'antisocial behaviour' by the horse might

> ensue.

 

You assume incorrectly. I would give him testosterone in a heartbeat of it

were what he needed, but he has remained, apparently, an extremely virile

horse his entire life. He is powerfully muscled, very macho, and has been

prone to attacking other horses unprovoked all his life. Not a problem for

me either, but other owners refused to allow their horses to be turned out

with him. He went back out with his dam from the age of two when he cornered

a yearling filly, attacked her, and she tried to jump a five barred gate,

getting stuck on top of it and possibly doing herself permanent damage in

the process. At a training yard at 5 yrs he was still refusing to be

separated from adjacent mares, jumping fences each and every night until he

was finally allowed to go out with them. Luckily by then he was gentle with

mares, and only attacked males.

 

He did spend his yearling winter with a late-cut aggressive pony and they

had a whale of a time, play-fighting from dawn to dusk - he loved it, and I

was happy to see his aggressive play urges harmlessly fulfilled.

 

Stallions to this day still view him as another stallion - the mere sound of

his voice drives them wild. One of them injured himself kicking the

walls when my horse merely walked by the back of the stable, out of sight. I

have oftentimes asked for excess testosterone to be checked for, but the

vets

were of the opinion it was a pointless exercise for a properly gelded horse,

and just called him a 'naturally high androgen type'.

 

As far as I know, the kind of endocrine imbalances we have measured are

never created by early gelding of any animal. As for misdiagnosis - of that

I cannot be sure, I am not a TCM professional. That is why I am asking for

help.

 

Jackie