Integral medicine

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/1/03 8:20:02 AM,

Chinese Medicine writes:

 

<< IMO, the DIAGNOSTIC, PROGNOSTIC and FOLLOW-UP

assessment aspects of future Holistic Medicine will be based on

computerised scanning of the entire (internal and external)

BIOINTERFACE to measure objectively the body's " leak patterns "

and " leak ratios " between all scanned parts and " Zero Zones "

(standard reference zones to be determined). >>

 

Any holistic and integral model of medicine would have to be a " four

quadrant affair " . It would give equale weighting to personal experience

(I:internal subjective, self and consciousness, my senses as a diagnostician and

the

patient's own experience), intersubjective experience (We:internal

intersubjective, culture and world view, the quality of interaction between the

patient

and healer in the treatment room for example), the properties of what is

studied (it: external objective, brain, organism etc.), and the attributes of it

(its: social system and environment). All four quadrants would need to be

correlated. (See Wilber: A Theory of Everything).

At best then, what you propose could be a quadrant of a medical system

focused on the external objective (it). My hunch is that, no matter how

advanced, machines that calculate leak ratios will be be as relevant to patients

and

their own internal or cultural experiences relative to illness and healing as

blood pressure cuffs and cat scans now are. In other words, such machines

might be a small part of an integral medicine but in no way could ever be the

" basis. " In fact, any medicine that uses measurement as its " basis " is

materialist

in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be holistic. Right? In

integral medicine all four quadrants would *have* to be given equale weighting.

Just

some thoughts based on my own limited understanding of such matters.-Lon

[Guest guest]

<< IMO, the DIAGNOSTIC, PROGNOSTIC and FOLLOW-UP assessment aspects of future Holistic Medicine will be based on computerised scanning of the entire (internal and external) BIOINTERFACE to measure objectively the body's "leak patterns" and "leak ratios" between all scanned parts and "Zero Zones" (standard reference zones to be determined). >>

 

 

 

 

Any holistic and integral model of medicine would have to be a "four quadrant affair". It would give equale weighting to personal experience (I:internal subjective, self and consciousness, my senses as a diagnostician and the patient's own experience), intersubjective experience (We:internal intersubjective, culture and world view, the quality of interaction between the patient and healer in the treatment room for example), the properties of what is studied (it: external objective, brain, organism etc.), and the attributes of it (its: social system and environment). All four quadrants would need to be correlated. (See Wilber: A Theory of Everything). At best then, what you propose could be a quadrant of a medical system focused on the external objective (it). My hunch is that, no matter how advanced, machines that calculate leak ratios will be be as relevant to patients and their own internal or cultural experiences relative to illness and healing as blood pressure cuffs and cat scans now are. In other words, such machines might be a small part of an integral medicine but in no way could ever be the "basis." In fact, any medicine that uses measurement as its "basis" is materialist in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be holistic. Right? In integral medicine all four quadrants would *have* to be given equale weighting. Just some thoughts based on my own limited understanding of such matters.-Lon

 

 

Much confusion arises from the various "meanings" given to the word "holistic".

This expression have already been used to often, and now it carries the weight

of age.The first statement above stems from a partial new age understanding

of the word "holistic" being taken as the "understanding of the human physiology

as one unit". The second - from Lonny - tends toward the other more complete

understanding of the expressionas: "holistic is the perception/understanding

the unity of ALL there is".

 

I say "tends" because although it seems to be pointing toward the later kind

of understanding one can never be sure without something like some kind of

interchange where both may feel that are touching the very same ground at

the very same time.

 

Of course I agree that computers have not the capacity to measure "wholeness" of

existence - although it is not totally impossible to imagine that computers of future ages

could measure the harmony/wholeness of a human organism as a reflection of

its (the person's) capacity to perceive the wholeness of the universe.

 

 

 

Regards

 

-geo-

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Hi Lon & Geo,

 

I wrote: " IMO, the DIAGNOSTIC, PROGNOSTIC and FOLLOW-UP

assessment aspects of future Holistic Medicine will be based on

computerised scanning of the entire (internal and external)

BIOINTERFACE to measure objectively the body's " leak patterns "

and " leak ratios " between all scanned parts and " Zero Zones "

(standard reference zones to be determined). "

 

Lon wrote:

> Any holistic and integral model of medicine would have to be a

> " four quadrant affair " . All four quadrants would need to be

> correlated. (See Wilber: A Theory of Everything).

 

Akabane, Nakatani, Voll and others pioneered attempts to make

Channel Dx possible. But they only measured sensitivity at a small

number (usually 24) of the distal acupoints. They developed their

methods before the advent of powerful PCs and other technology to

run automated whole-body scans, capture the data, compare the

data with " normal reference values " , and calculate thousands of

complex cross-comparisons betwen the actual and " reference "

values.

 

I see quadrant measurement (left/right; top/bottom) as only part of

the system! Measurement of leaks & leak-ratios would be made

over the entire external body surface, PLUS as mush of the internal

interface as could be reached easily. Then the data would be run to

calculate quadrant values, values for each Channel, values for the

Shu/Mu, Yuan/Luo, Xi, Hour, and Five Element Pts.

 

Having completed the calculations for the subject, the outcomes

would be run against the reference values, and add deviations >5%

above or below the reference ranges would be displayed in a 3-D

hologram, and in printouts of the more serious deviations.

 

By reiterative preprogrammed equations, one could examine for

balance/imbalance between Yin ^ Yang, within & between the

Channels and their Zang-Fu, within and betwen Elements, between

the Six Levels, etc.

 

The final outputs would be a shortlist of possible Dxs on many of

the TCM principles. But these Dxs would be only PROMPTS to the

CLINICIAN. As in the case of herbal or acupuncture cookbooks - a

CLINICIAN must decide which points/herbs to use. She may

decide to ignore the cookbooks and go it alone.

 

As in ALL medicine, CLINICAL Dx is essential. I agree that

MACHINE Dx and MACHINE Tx will probably be MUCH less

successful than the doctor-patient interactions.

 

Therefore, I foresee a synthesis of old components, with a few new

ones added. I see the measurement of " leaks " and " leak-ratios " as

the OBJECTIVE BASIS for Dx, Prognosis and Post-treatment

assessment. But I do NOT see it as the TOTAL or SOLE

component! The usual Dx methods (look/see, listen/hear,

palpate/feel, sniff/smell, etc), PLUS the previous medical history,

PLUS any other examinations needed would still apply.

 

> At best then, what you propose could be a quadrant of a medical

> system focused on the external objective (it). My hunch is that,

> no matter how advanced, machines that calculate leak ratios will be

> be as relevant to patients and their own internal or cultural

> experiences relative to illness and healing as blood pressure cuffs

> and cat scans now are. In other words, such machines might be a

> small part of an integral medicine but in no way could ever be the

> " basis. "

 

Please see my previous comments

 

> ...any medicine that uses measurement as its " basis " is

> materialist in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be

> holistic. Right?

 

See above. Pathology=deviation from the normal; this implies

comparative measurement of all data recorded (including TCM-

derived data). Thus, ALL Dx involves measurement!

 

Lon, I would not substitute machines for clinicians! But machines

can be of extraordinary help to clinicians. Sometimes they detect

pathology that the best clinician may have missed - for example,

early-stage cancer, pre-clinical geneticly-determined diseases, eyc.

 

Geo wrote:

> Much confusion arises from the various " meanings " given to the word

> " holistic " ... used too often ...stems from a partial new age

> understanding of the word " holistic " being taken as the

> " understanding of the human physiology as one unit " . The second -

> from Lonny - tends toward the other more complete understanding of

> the expressionas: " holistic is the perception/understanding the

> unity of ALL there is " . I say " tends " because although it seems to

> be pointing toward the later kind of understanding one can never be

> sure without something like some kind of interchange where both may

> feel that are touching the very same ground at the very same time.

 

Geo, if you have read my WWW pages and lectures, you SHOULD

know my views on holistic medicine. I use the second definition

and include some factors/forces in the " ALL there is " that most on

these lists would regard as unreal. But for me they ARE real,

including spirits, malevolent psychic attack, geopathic zones, etc.

 

I know at least 12 humans that had intractable chronic disease

(which all attempts, allopathic and complementary, had failed to

help) become symtom-free within 1-4 weeks after moving away

from a geopathic zone (usually a crossing point under their beds).

Moving the bed as little as 1 metre from the original place can have

profound clinical benefit in such cases!

 

As Robert Becker (and many others) have said, IMO the body is

extremely sensitive to changes in EMFs. EMF Pollution can

damage health and application of small amounts of energy at the

correct acupoints [for example low-level-laser) can enhance health.

 

I have felt for a long time that electro-Dx is coming; it may take

another 20 years or so. IMO it holds enormous potential to

integrate TCM knowledge and modern hi-tech medicine.

 

Best regards,

 

 

WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

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[Guest guest]

Lon,

 

Nice to see run into you again.

I missed the post you're responding

to, but the point you're raising

in reponse is an important one,

I think. Suggesting that the future

depends on the supremacy of ever

more sensitive measurement standards

and devices is tantamount saying that

the ancient Chinese were really just

struggling to be just like modern

scientists...but of course couldn't

achieve that. So now we'll polish up

their rough edges and presto, there

we will be.

 

I recall that our last exchange touched

on the notion of translation standards,

and here I just want to point out that

there is almost no comparison between

the proposed imposition of diagnositc

assessment standards and the development

of well thought out methodologies and

bilingual glosses based on these methods

of developing translation standards.

 

Here the word " standard " works in two

distinct senses.

 

 

>

> << IMO, the DIAGNOSTIC, PROGNOSTIC and FOLLOW-UP

> assessment aspects of future Holistic Medicine will be based on

> computerised scanning of the entire (internal and external)

> BIOINTERFACE to measure objectively the body's " leak patterns "

> and " leak ratios " between all scanned parts and " Zero Zones "

> (standard reference zones to be determined). >>

>

> Any holistic and integral model of medicine would have to

be a " four

> quadrant affair " . It would give equale weighting to personal

experience

> (I:internal subjective, self and consciousness, my senses as a

diagnostician and the

> patient's own experience), intersubjective experience (We:internal

> intersubjective, culture and world view, the quality of

interaction between the patient

> and healer in the treatment room for example), the properties of

what is

> studied (it: external objective, brain, organism etc.), and the

attributes of it

> (its: social system and environment). All four quadrants would

need to be

> correlated. (See Wilber: A Theory of Everything).

 

Why? You cite Wilber, but why would

these criteria be the ones that would

have to be used to evaluate, well anything

at all, let alone everything?

 

 

> At best then, what you propose could be a quadrant of a

medical system

> focused on the external objective (it). My hunch is that, no

matter how

> advanced, machines that calculate leak ratios will be be as

relevant to patients and

> their own internal or cultural experiences relative to illness and

healing as

> blood pressure cuffs and cat scans now are. In other words, such

machines

> might be a small part of an integral medicine but in no way could

ever be the

> " basis. "

 

Agreed. The urge to automate is at least as

old as language itself, which is in some

ways just an early attempt, through the

association of different perceptual systems

to create an " automatic " or pre-set pattern

of relationships that allows us to manipulate

data in ways that we discover to be useful.

 

The replacement of human intelligence with

various of its automata remains the stuff

of science fiction, despite the ascendancy

of AI innovators from Minsky onward.

 

This doesn't mean that the notion of a machine

that can jump out of its own systemic context

and have an innovative thought will always

be a fantasy. But this really involves an

evolutionary, rather than a merely innovative

development. And as came up on the CHA list

in a recent discussion, evaluating our daily

lives from an evolutionary or archaeological

perspective can be a little dicey. Whenever

I see people arguing from this approach, I

tend to understand them to be forwarding

ardently held opinions...and little more.

 

In fact, any medicine that uses measurement as its " basis " is

materialist

> in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be holistic.

 

I'm not sure that I understand the distinction

you're making between materialistic and

holistic. Are the two understood to be

mutually exclusive?

 

Right? In

> integral medicine all four quadrants would *have* to be given

equale weighting. Just

> some thoughts based on my own limited understanding of such

matters.-Lon

 

Thanks. Look forward to your further

thoughts, as your time permits.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken, Lon

 

Just my two cents

 

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

 

Lon:

> > In fact, any medicine that uses measurement as its " basis " is

> > materialist

> > in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be holistic.

 

Ken:

> I'm not sure that I understand the distinction

> you're making between materialistic and

> holistic. Are the two understood to be

> mutually exclusive?

 

Alwin

I read 'materialistic' as being on the physical level. Holistic would

incorporate besides the physical level also the emotional and mental

level. And would any machine be capable of measuring anything on an

emotional or mental level? Or do we expect that everything on an

emotional or mental level can be projected on something on the

physical level?

 

 

Alwin

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Alwin van

Egmond " <@v...> wrote:

> Hi Ken, Lon

>

> Just my two cents

>

> Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

> <kenrose2008> wrote:

>

> Lon:

> > > In fact, any medicine that uses measurement as its " basis " is

> > > materialist

> > > in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be holistic.

>

> Ken:

> > I'm not sure that I understand the distinction

> > you're making between materialistic and

> > holistic. Are the two understood to be

> > mutually exclusive?

>

> Alwin

> I read 'materialistic' as being on the physical level. Holistic

would

> incorporate besides the physical level also the emotional and

mental

> level. And would any machine be capable of measuring anything on an

> emotional or mental level? Or do we expect that everything on an

> emotional or mental level can be projected on something on the

> physical level?

 

Alwin:

To the holistic you might also add the spiritual level.

[Guest guest]

There is a machine that goes some way towards analysing the body's

vibrational frequenecies. Before i list the article concerning the

QX machine let me very briefly explain the connection between

vibrational frequencies and TCM.

 

The mechanisms of acupuncture as a analgesia are still unclear. Dr

Pomeranz first discovered that acupuncture analgesia caused the

release of endorphins from the pituitary gland after a 30 minute

period (cited in Gerber 1996, p194). As Gerber (1996, p197) explains

the possible mechanism of acupuncture analgesia starts from the

initial acupoint stimulation (see figure 1). Through the acupuncture

meridian network, Qi energies are transformed into DC-current

changes, which are then slowly transmitted along perineural pathways

throughout the glial network. At the level of the brain, these

changes in DC potential are also associated with neurochemical

mechanisms (i.e. endorphin release) that may precede or coincide

with the action-potential changes in individual neurons.

 

And now the article:

 

The machine that can tell if you're well.

 

The Quantum Xeroid system is complementary medicine gone sci-fi: it

thinks it can diagnose your bodily health and you moods. Precious

Williams went to find out. (Evening Standard, Tuesday 6th March

2001).

 

There's a scarily high-tech new health-testing device that's coming

near you. If its creators are to be believed, the machine can read

what is on your mind as well as what's going on in your body. The

Quantum Xeroid system – QX for short – is a computer-linked

arrangement that's just arrived in the UK and is tipped to

revolutionise complementary medicine.

 

Developed by a former Nasa scientist, Professor Bill Nelson, QX

works by measuring your body's " electrical parameters " . Using ultra-

sensitive computer software, the device " reads " your physical and

emotional vibrations. In short, it can tell you whether you are

healthy at a click of the mouse. It's also capable of analysing your

physical reactions such as allergies to more than 3,500 different

substances.

 

Jayney Goddard, president of the Complementary Medicine Association,

says: Humans are naturally electrical beings and the QX system

accurately measures the patient's electrical responses.

 

" The device uses electrophysiological reactivity to pick up

sensitivities and identify the overloading of substances and toxins " .

 

At the Grove Health Clinic in Kensington, QX practitioner Susan

Astbury strapped electrical cables to my head, ankles and wrists

(this is painless, if slightly uncomfortable). The cables are wired

to Susan's state-of-the-art laptop.

 

No pulse or blood pressure readings are taken. Instead Susan types

details of my sleeping, eating and working patterns straight into

the computer. In a matter of minutes, the QX machine will have

tested my body's electro-magnetic parameters for signs of allergies,

vitamin-and-mineral deficiencies, viral and bacterial infections,

parasites and even adverse moods and emotions.

 

" Strong emotions are capable of causing physical reactions, which,

thanks to this system, can now be measured, " says Susan, typing

furiously. " With aliments which are difficult to treat, like

migraines, QX can determine whether the underlying problem is sugar

toxicity or simply high stress levels. The readings allow me to

pinpoint your body's precise requirements and prescribe tailor made

treatments for you " .

 

Seconds later, my " vibrational energy " details are digitally

analysed and displayed on-screen in easy-to-read jargon. The QX

machine has revealed a reassuringly high level of overall physical

and emotional health.

 

But it isn't all good news. According to the QX analysis. I have

higher-than-healthy stress levels (hardly surprising, with my

constant rush to meet deadlines). My level of patience is markedly

low (something my boyfriend tells me every day).

 

The machine then churns out a personalised allergy-elimination

programme. Again, it is uncannily spot-on in its suggestion that my

body was reeling from recent overloads of alcohol, sugar and

tobacco. In the week before my appointment, I'd been to six booze-

laden parties and gone back to smoking 10 cigarettes a day.

 

What I wasn't prepared for was to be told that the real enemy to my

health was carrot juice. If QX is to be believed, my daily trips to

the juice bar are counter-productive. The levels of carotene in my

body are even more toxic than nicotine.

 

The final stage of the QX treatment involves a five-minute interlude

during which electro-magnetic resonances are zapped throughout my

body (again, this is painless, but just try keeping a straight

face). These resonances, says Susan, will temporarily rebalance the

charkas. But for longer-term health benefits, she suggests I return

to the clinic for a few sessions of colour therapy, QX advocates a

holistic approach to health – prevention rather than cure. According

to this philosophy, there's no point in indulging in quick-fix cures

since you'll simply overload your body – rather than improving the

underlying electrophysical vibes.

 

" There's a definite validity to QX " says Jayney Goddard. " It's

impressive. I feel that the system should be rolled out to all GP

clinics " .

 

However, QX is not without its critics and Professor Edward Ernst of

the Royal College of General Practitioners was quick to assure me

that QX therapy was, at best, a waste of cash.

 

" It may sound good in principle but the notion is pretty

implausible. There is no evidence I have ever heard of to suggest

for a minute that this system is effective " , says Professor

Ernst. " If a patient is suffering from illness he must see his GP.

To put such claims out there about this machine's alleged

capabilities is mis-leading and potentially dangerous. "

 

I can't imagine the average GP investing in a QX machine: prices

start at £10,000. but, for myself, the results were accurate and the

dietary recommendations (no cheese, less alcohol and carrot juice)

have been effective. After two weeks of sticking to the advice I've

lost 4lb and acquired a glowing complexion, so I think I can safely

skip the colour therapy.

 

Attilio

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Alwin van

Egmond " <@v...> wrote:

> Chinese Medicine , " Alwin van

> Egmond " <@v...> wrote:

> > Hi Ken, Lon

> >

> > Just my two cents

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

> > <kenrose2008> wrote:

> >

> > Lon:

> > > > In fact, any medicine that uses measurement as its " basis "

is

> > > > materialist

> > > > in nature and therfore could never, on its own, be holistic.

> >

> > Ken:

> > > I'm not sure that I understand the distinction

> > > you're making between materialistic and

> > > holistic. Are the two understood to be

> > > mutually exclusive?

> >

> > Alwin

> > I read 'materialistic' as being on the physical level. Holistic

> would

> > incorporate besides the physical level also the emotional and

> mental

> > level. And would any machine be capable of measuring anything on

an

> > emotional or mental level? Or do we expect that everything on an

> > emotional or mental level can be projected on something on the

> > physical level?

>

> Alwin:

> To the holistic you might also add the spiritual level.

[Guest guest]

Alwin,

 

 

> I read 'materialistic' as being on the physical level. Holistic

would

> incorporate besides the physical level also the emotional and

mental

> level. And would any machine be capable of measuring anything on

an

> emotional or mental level? Or do we expect that everything on an

> emotional or mental level can be projected on something on the

> physical level?

 

Where do you draw the boundaries between

these supposed levels?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> Where do you draw the boundaries between

> these supposed levels?

 

These levels are definied in one of my textbooks " The clinical

medicine guide; a holistic perspective " from Stephen Gascoigne.

He gives a reference regarding this theorie of levels to " The Science

of Homeopathy " by George Vithoulkas (Grove 1980).

 

The levels are defined as:

Physical level:

those parts we can see, touch and perceive with our physical senses.

Skin, muscles, joints, intestines, digestive system, lungs, central

nervous system, liver, kidney, heart, endocrine system, blood - red

and white blood cells

 

Emotional level:

What has to do with feeling, emotion or affect.

Irritability, anxiety, sadness, fear, depression, homocidal feeling,

suicidal feeling, complete absence of feeling.

 

Mental level:

What has to do with thought, perception, cognition.

Lack of concentration, poor memory, thought disorders,

hallucinations, delusions, confusion, disintegration of the

personality.

 

Alwin