Paul Unschuld on qi and daoism

[Guest guest]

Matt,

 

> Sorry that my question about Unschuld's ideas on qi were rather vague. I

> was sort of fishing to see what you thought. In my readings of his works

> (mostly History of Ideas and his new work on the Su Wen) I find him to be

> very vague about the subject also. In fact, in his just released work on

> the Sun Wen he ends up translating qi as " qi " . He gives no real indication

> of what this phrase means only some ideas on what he believes it does not

> mean.

 

Paul comments on qi as " finest matter influences " in the " Medicine of

Systematic Correspondences " Chapter of " Medicine in China: a History of

Ideas. " In sum, he describes the concept of wind in Chinese thought as

mediating the transition from " evil demons " to " evil qi " as part of the

development of systematic correspondences during the Warring States

period from the earlier (and still pervasive) ideas of magical

correspondence.

 

You might find some of Dr. Uschuld's articles interesting, see:

http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/paradigm/refs.htm

 

> I agree with you about the value of his work and although I have had

> limited communication with him, I also agree he seems to be a very warm,

> generous individual. While I find his research very detailed and quite

> valuable, I disagree with some of his conclusions. For example, in the Su

> Wen work, his firmly states that the theories in that book are contrary to

> Taoist beliefs. Taoists, he states, were only involved with pharmacology

> and not at all with the theories behind acupuncture. His emphasis is on

> social-political influences of different times and the way those related

> to medical theories.

 

This is not an entirely accurate description. What it misses is that Dr.

Unschuld makes his statements based on the surviving textual record and

he leaves open the possibility that Taoist of Buddhist texts will someday be

found showing a greater role for these philosphies in the development of

Chinese medicine. What Dr. Unschuld asserts is that among the thousands

of textual and archeological fragments that have been compiled and

collated, there is no evidence of a Taosist influence on the development of

systematic correspondences but there is considerable evidence that materia

medica was a Taoist concern. Materia medica, of course, was not

incorporated into systematic correspondences until the 11th century.

 

> These are important - but not the only factors. He

> seems to me to be quite mute on the influence of spiritual beliefs which,

> I would contend, is the deepest essence behind these practices.

 

Dr. Unschuld is saying that within the considerable scope of the materials

compiled in the study of the Nei Jing and texts of the seminal period,

including the Ma Huang Dui scripts that Dr. Harper has studied, there is

no evidence of an essential Taoist influence on the development of Chinese

medicine. The scope of what has been gathered, over 8,000 items if I

remember correctly, cannot be ignored. In fact, the record actually

suggests Taoist ideas that are now discussed as philosophical or symbolic,

may have indeed been accepted at the time as actual gods and godesses.

 

Personally, I think the biggest stumbling-block for proposing an essential

spritual foundation for CM from Taoism is Taoism itself. Chinese

medicine, or more narrowly the medicine of systematic correspondence,

depends upon the idea that human behavior and human intravention can

restore order. Taosim, on the other hand, is predicated on the notion that

human intervention creates chaos. Thus, a concentration on the naturally-

occuring medicinals of materia medica, particularly with the early influence

on spirit-oriented disease causation and ancestral intravention, is a logical

concentration for Taoists. Systematic correspondence, on the other hand,

with its emphasis on re-establishing harmony through dance, gymnastics,

and direct medical application, fits the Confuscian and Legalist

world view.

 

> As I see it, true to yin/yang law, his greatest strengths are also his

> greatest weakness. By this I mean, as a history scholar, he is bound to

> the written word. He, in my opinion, writes off folk history as not even

> worthy of consideration.

 

What folk history? What folk history can be known, if it is not the written

record? The folk histories contemporaneous with the Huang Di Nei Jing

concern demonology, ancestral propritation, the Wu Shaman, literal gods,

and spiritual entities that inhabit the natural world. These were the

primary belief systems.

 

>But it may well be that crucial elements of the

> real story of the history of are unwritten. It may be

> that by the time written records were being produced (at least the tiny

> faction of all the original written records we now have available to us)

> the groundbreaking work on Chinese medical philosophy had already been

> produced long ago.

 

Anything may be. But, this cannot be the case. How can something be

critical, yet vanish? We are discussing a culture that has workable records

of elcipses that occurred in 7,000BC, and that preserved its medical and

" practical " mauals through even the book burnings of the late Qin state.

Anything that existed prior to the (now possibly 5,000 year) written record,

will be seen as an influence in the later written record, unless it had no

influence. The Chinese reverence for their ancient materials, the intense

literality of the culture, the physical art and artifacts that remain, all make

the idea that a critical influence has left no literal record pretty hard to

swallow.

 

>The Su Wen and all other early works on Chinese

> Medicine are conspicuous in there complete lack of detail explaining the

> origins of the most essential subjects of the concept of qi, yin/yang, how

> the original points/herbs were discovered, etc.

 

The Merck Manual is conspicuous in its abesence of explanations of organic

chemistry. Harvey left out a lot about the circulation of blood. Early works

are early works. Early works on Chinese medicne are early works on

Chinese medicine, not encyclopedias of Chinese science. What the new

Huang-di text shows is the inconsistencies and multiplicities of a human art

in its formative stages.

 

There is a scholarship of qi, yin-yang and a history of Chinese medicine

andUnschuld's work is so essential to that scholarship that it is almost

impossible to talk about it without using concepts Unschuld has authored.

 

> Unschuld does not address

> these subjects. How can one draw conclusions about the origins of Chinese

> Medicne while leaving such crucial questions not a

> ddressed?

 

How can you draw conclusions about Chinese medicine without

the written record? The written record exists, everything we know about

human history suggests that it is an outgrowth of what went before. If there

is an explanation of sourcing for Chinese medicine that is not consistent

with the written record, how do you explain-away the written record?

 

 

> The book I am working on takes Taoist folk history into account and

> attempts to reconcile this with the literal history by sources such as

[ . . .]

> current records. My background is the study of Taoist folk history (at

> least one school of thought on this) and the practice of Taoist spiritual

> pursuits.

 

If you are not using literal history, what you call " folk history " -- which

typically means contemporaneous orally-reported material gathered by

interview -- cannot speak to the issues of origin you raise. It can tell us

what

people who are alive today believe about the ancient past, and it is thus

about contemporaneous ideas. If you mean you are looking at the tradition

of school of thought or practice, again, you can only speak to the belief

system of that tradition. If what you mean by folk history is the folk tales

current in the period of the Haung Di Nei Jing, you have no access but

literal history.

 

Bob

 

bob Paradigm Publications

www.paradigm-pubs.com P.O. Box 1037

Robert L. Felt 202 Bendix Drive

505 758 7758 Taos, New Mexico 87571

 

 

 

---

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[Guest guest]

Matt, Bob, and All,

 

Year before last I had this conversation

with both Nigel Wisemand and Paul Unschuld,

actually it was a series of conversations,

about the influence of " Daoism " on the

development of medicine in China.

 

It raised a lot of questions in my mind,

and the most fundamental one, which I believe

remains largely unanswered, especially for

the vast majority of students and practitioners

of Chinese medicine in the West who have

not had much exposure or chance to read

and otherwise study Daoism, is:

 

What is Daoism?

 

Here are some other questions:

 

What is history?

 

When is the past?

 

In a literary tradition that is characterized

by a coterie language that works through

suggestion and the association of ideas and

in which the key point was often not stated

but implied, what is the value of written

records...if they have to be interpreted by

someone who " knows " what they mean?

 

Where does the " wordless teaching " fit into

the understanding of a wide range of texts

that have been preserved...and altered

over the course of the centuries that

we associate with subjects like Daoism

and Chinese medicine?

 

Can a mind that has not been disciplined

according to the full range of traditional

epistemological principles and practices

that have existed within the broad stream

of traditional Chinese thought possibly

come to terms with specific items that

are found within the broad context?

 

Who cares?

 

And why?

 

I've already made my thoughts about Paul's

work clear, at least in general terms.

 

None of the above questions in any slightest

way dampen my enthusiasm for what he has

done and continues to do in terms of

subjecting the historical records to

the diligent reflection of a true scholar.

 

But I believe that if we study the past

in order to make ourselves more well suited

to create the future, then the answers that

we are looking for lie primarily within

our own indiviudal synthesis of ideas

and images.

 

And I believe even more strongly that

the search for answers is a distant second

to the search for ever more intriguing

questions.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

why ask why?

 

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[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

> why ask why?

 

Darn good question.

 

As I was driving in to my office

this morning, I thought of another

question that I think should be

raised with respect to this subject

of the influence of Daoism on

the development of medicine in China

and on the broader question of

spirituality.

 

This question relates to the status

of terms such as " spirit " , " spiritual " ,

" religion " , " religious " , etc.

 

Can we assume that the various " schools

of thought " such as Daoism, Confucianism,

Buddhism, Legalism, etc. were separate

and distinct as we think of schools of

thought such as Islam, Christianity,

Judaism, and even the various sects and

cults within these various religious

movements?

 

Was it a matter of mutual exclusivity?

 

Or could a traditional Chinese thinker

be...i.e., consider himself or herself

to be both a Daoist and a Confucian?

A Daoist and a Buddhist? A Confucian

and a Buddhist? Or all three?

 

One of the reasons why Unschuld's work

is so important is that the detailed

clarity he brings to such study allows

us to consider such matters against a

baseline of well drawn historical facts.

 

What I meant by " Why? " was " Why do

we care about these things? "

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken, Bob and all,

 

I very much appreciated Ken's comments as I largely feel the same. The issue of subjectivity vs. objectivity is a reflection of and as slippery as yin/yang. What one person feels qualifies as "Taoism" may not be what another one would think that term should mean. Even the most careful scholar is subject to seeing things from a particular "point of view." Unschuld strongly disagreed with Joseph Needham (and his collaborator's) translation of a specific passage that would push back the age of acupuncture 500 or more years than Unschuld believes it to be. When giants such as these disagree, it shows how subjective such translations can be. Who am I or anyone else to jump into that fray?

 

I have my opinions and came by them with the utmost objectivity I could muster but I understand I have my own prejudices and I respect the opinions of others. Chuang Tzu put it so beautifully in his essay on ... "What is right and what is wrong?" The main point I hope to eventually raise with better supporting information than I can offer here is - "What are we to make of the legends of Fu-Hsi, Shen Nung, and Huang Di or those that Taoist legend contends came before these Sages?" Scholars like to say that later authors attributed their writings to legendary figures as a means to add more weight to their own theories. I have no doubt such practices occurred but, does that explain it all? How often have scholars written off legends as baseless myth only to later find evidence to support those legends? I contend that the issue of the legends of a lost "Golden Age" cannot be written of so quickly. While many of the details of this age may be wrong, what does it say about a culture who believed their greatest minds lived thousands of years in the past? Does it make sense that Han era authors would use those ancient names to give credibility to a "new" paradigm (systematic correspondences vs. demonic model)?

 

The second point I hope to make is the influence of ancient astronomy. Why did some organize 365 points on 12 primary and two special channels. What was the connection with the calendar and medical theory? Why do so many acu-points have the phrase celestial (tian) in their names? The Five Elements/Phases may also have been directly inspired by astronomical discoveries. There are so many questions not yet addressed. By raising these, I do not intend to discredit others but to encourage dialog. This is a big subject with room for many opinions.

 

The great physicist Werner Von Hiesenberg once commented that only physicists were qualified to comment of the philosophical ramifications of physics. I do not completely agree with that but I appreciate his point that the ones actively involved in the practice of a complex specialty have a unique insight into the philosophic lessons such a specialty may hold. We need scholars such as Unschuld, but it is helpful to have those actively practicing Taoism and Oriental Medicine offer their opinions on these subjects also. I would like to continue this discussion but as I hope to eventually publish a book that includes such considerations, I do not wish to misuse this forum in such a way that may be seen by some as a form of self promotion. I look to the list moderator to let me know if I am straying in that direction.

 

Sorry for the long message all - Matt Bauer

 

 

-

kenrose2008

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:39 PM

Traditional (TCM) Re: Paul Unschuld on qi and daoism

Matt, Bob, and All,Year before last I had this conversationwith both Nigel Wisemand and Paul Unschuld,actually it was a series of conversations,about the influence of "Daoism" on thedevelopment of medicine in China.It raised a lot of questions in my mind,and the most fundamental one, which I believeremains largely unanswered, especially forthe vast majority of students and practitionersof Chinese medicine in the West who havenot had much exposure or chance to readand otherwise study Daoism, is:What is Daoism?Here are some other questions:What is history?When is the past?In a literary tradition that is characterizedby a coterie language that works throughsuggestion and the association of ideas andin which the key point was often not statedbut implied, what is the value of writtenrecords...if they have to be interpreted bysomeone who "knows" what they mean?Where does the "wordless teaching" fit intothe understanding of a wide range of textsthat have been preserved...and alteredover the course of the centuries thatwe associate with subjects like Daoismand Chinese medicine?Can a mind that has not been disciplinedaccording to the full range of traditionalepistemological principles and practicesthat have existed within the broad streamof traditional Chinese thought possiblycome to terms with specific items thatare found within the broad context?Who cares?And why?I've already made my thoughts about Paul'swork clear, at least in general terms.None of the above questions in any slightestway dampen my enthusiasm for what he hasdone and continues to do in terms ofsubjecting the historical records tothe diligent reflection of a true scholar.But I believe that if we study the pastin order to make ourselves more well suitedto create the future, then the answers thatwe are looking for lie primarily withinour own indiviudal synthesis of ideasand images. And I believe even more strongly thatthe search for answers is a distant secondto the search for ever more intriguingquestions.KenFor practitioners, students and those interested in Traditional (TCM) ranging from acupuncture, herbal medicine, tuina and nutrition.Membership rules require that you adhere to NO commercial postings, NO religious postings and NO spam.Web site homepage: Chinese Medicine/

[Guest guest]

Dear Ken,

 

Very well taken. Please understand that I have read very little of the

philosophical literature from the east, and can only speak from an

extensive background in traditional Judaic philosophical, chasidic and

legal literature. Though I do not want to tread on the territory of

" religion " or " spirituality " , from my perspective, all of life and all

beings are inherently spiritual and holy. The mistake that Westerners

(and I would posit, perhaps others?) make, is to compartmentalize rather

than intergrate life. What so excites me about Oriental medicine, its

philosophy (from my limited understanding of it) and its terminology, is

that I find it to be remarkably integrative, stressing the powerful

physical and emotional interrelationships within the body, promoting

inner balance and harmony, as well as promoting that same harmony

relative to our environment. Implicit in that statement is that every

action we take manifests itself on everything else in the universe. I

therefore look at us as being very powerful and potentially very healing

beings both in a micro and a micro sense. In Judaism, we refer to this

concept as " Tikun Olam " , or repairing the universe. But, even though we

are all so powerful, paradoxically, from a rational perspective we are

completely inept at measuring the impact of our actions because of our

physical limitations. When I ask the question: " why ask why? " , I

therefore mean, why bother with useless, theoretical speculation when the

same energy can be instead be put into healing ourselves, healing those

that we interact with and healing our world.

 

With much respect,

 

Yehuda

 

PS

 

______________

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[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

I don't see any inherent conflict between

asking Why? ... or anything else for that

matter...and healing the whole universe.

Seems to me that healing the whole universe

is rooted in asking an infinity of questions,

each of which produces cascades of numberless

questions.

 

In other words, I believe that a questioning

mind is one that is in the right condition

to be able to engage in the healing of souls,

spirits, universes, and even schools of

traditional Chinese medicine.

 

It is impossible to avoid this sort of

exchange, as regardless of where one

places the emphasis, the presence of

religious and philosophical thought focused

on the progress of spirits and souls is

an undoubtable fact in the inventory of

goods contained in the great treasure

house of traditional Chinese medicine...

to coin another never-before-used term.

 

Or as Neruda put it in a poem of the

same name:

 

juegas todos los dias con la luz d'el universo

 

Peace, Love, and Rock'n'roll,

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt. Firstly, i greatly enjoy your writings so please continue.

Secondly, there is no moderator, just an 'owner'.

 

The fact that we have 365 points which of course must correspond to

the days of the year along with times, illustrates the idea behind

TCM that everything is connected together and everything is, in

essence ONE. As it becomes displayed in physical form, it

becomes 'focused' and therefore seperates from its pure form of ONE.

The concept of Yin and Yang is a perfect example of this. From the

pure form of ONE it is born into two elements in focused physical

form which comprise all things within this dimesion. (I'll try and

keep it TCM here as this is a TCM forum and not a spiritial one).

 

Going back to Doaism, Buddism and Confucianism. What's at the centre

of these great ideas is the same pure form. All great theories,

idealisms and religion have the same essence at their root. I

believe that the ancient TCM pracitioners saw this and brought all

into one. This is why some months back, i was discussing the notion,

that western medicine is a form of TCM in that it comes from the

same tree but is a different branch of the tree as is TCM. What lies

at the root is the essence of oneness with all healthcare systems

the branch and illness and disease its fruit.

 

So, carry on all....

 

Attilio

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " matt bauer "

<acu.guy@g...> wrote:

> Hi Ken, Bob and all,

>

> I very much appreciated Ken's comments as I largely feel the same.

The issue of subjectivity vs. objectivity is a reflection of and as

slippery as yin/yang. What one person feels qualifies as " Taoism "

may not be what another one would think that term should mean. Even

the most careful scholar is subject to seeing things from a

particular " point of view. " Unschuld strongly disagreed with Joseph

Needham (and his collaborator's) translation of a specific passage

that would push back the age of acupuncture 500 or more years than

Unschuld believes it to be. When giants such as these disagree, it

shows how subjective such translations can be. Who am I or anyone

else to jump into that fray?

>

> I have my opinions and came by them with the utmost objectivity I

could muster but I understand I have my own prejudices and I respect

the opinions of others. Chuang Tzu put it so beautifully in his

essay on ... " What is right and what is wrong? " The main point I

hope to eventually raise with better supporting information than I

can offer here is - " What are we to make of the legends of Fu-Hsi,

Shen Nung, and Huang Di or those that Taoist legend contends came

before these Sages? " Scholars like to say that later authors

attributed their writings to legendary figures as a means to add

more weight to their own theories. I have no doubt such practices

occurred but, does that explain it all? How often have scholars

written off legends as baseless myth only to later find evidence to

support those legends? I contend that the issue of the legends of a

lost " Golden Age " cannot be written of so quickly. While many of the

details of this age may be wrong, what does it say about a culture

who believed their greatest minds lived thousands of years in the

past? Does it make sense that Han era authors would use those

ancient names to give credibility to a " new " paradigm (systematic

correspondences vs. demonic model)?

>

> The second point I hope to make is the influence of ancient

astronomy. Why did some organize 365 points on 12 primary and two

special channels. What was the connection with the calendar and

medical theory? Why do so many acu-points have the phrase celestial

(tian) in their names? The Five Elements/Phases may also have been

directly inspired by astronomical discoveries. There are so many

questions not yet addressed. By raising these, I do not intend to

discredit others but to encourage dialog. This is a big subject with

room for many opinions.

>

> The great physicist Werner Von Hiesenberg once commented that only

physicists were qualified to comment of the philosophical

ramifications of physics. I do not completely agree with that but I

appreciate his point that the ones actively involved in the practice

of a complex specialty have a unique insight into the philosophic

lessons such a specialty may hold. We need scholars such as

Unschuld, but it is helpful to have those actively practicing Taoism

and Oriental Medicine offer their opinions on these subjects also.

I would like to continue this discussion but as I hope to eventually

publish a book that includes such considerations, I do not wish to

misuse this forum in such a way that may be seen by some as a form

of self promotion. I look to the list moderator to let me know if I

am straying in that direction.

>

> Sorry for the long message all - Matt Bauer

>

> -

> kenrose2008

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:39 PM

> Traditional (TCM) Re: Paul Unschuld on

qi and daoism

>

>

> Matt, Bob, and All,

>

> Year before last I had this conversation

> with both Nigel Wisemand and Paul Unschuld,

> actually it was a series of conversations,

> about the influence of " Daoism " on the

> development of medicine in China.

>

> It raised a lot of questions in my mind,

> and the most fundamental one, which I believe

> remains largely unanswered, especially for

> the vast majority of students and practitioners

> of Chinese medicine in the West who have

> not had much exposure or chance to read

> and otherwise study Daoism, is:

>

> What is Daoism?

>

> Here are some other questions:

>

> What is history?

>

> When is the past?

>

> In a literary tradition that is characterized

> by a coterie language that works through

> suggestion and the association of ideas and

> in which the key point was often not stated

> but implied, what is the value of written

> records...if they have to be interpreted by

> someone who " knows " what they mean?

>

> Where does the " wordless teaching " fit into

> the understanding of a wide range of texts

> that have been preserved...and altered

> over the course of the centuries that

> we associate with subjects like Daoism

> and Chinese medicine?

>

> Can a mind that has not been disciplined

> according to the full range of traditional

> epistemological principles and practices

> that have existed within the broad stream

> of traditional Chinese thought possibly

> come to terms with specific items that

> are found within the broad context?

>

> Who cares?

>

> And why?

>

> I've already made my thoughts about Paul's

> work clear, at least in general terms.

>

> None of the above questions in any slightest

> way dampen my enthusiasm for what he has

> done and continues to do in terms of

> subjecting the historical records to

> the diligent reflection of a true scholar.

>

> But I believe that if we study the past

> in order to make ourselves more well suited

> to create the future, then the answers that

> we are looking for lie primarily within

> our own indiviudal synthesis of ideas

> and images.

>

> And I believe even more strongly that

> the search for answers is a distant second

> to the search for ever more intriguing

> questions.

>

> Ken

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Matt, Attilio, and others who are hanging by this thread,

 

> Hi Matt. Firstly, i greatly enjoy your writings so please

continue.

> Secondly, there is no moderator, just an 'owner'.

 

Matt, I'm just a member like you, but if

there is any proscription forbidding

plugging one's own work, then I sure

don't belong here. After all, I only

write books in order to start and

contribute to discussions such as these.

For me, the process of chewing over

these ideas is, more or less, what it's

all about...at least when it comes to

what we do outside of the clinic

or courseroom that most directly contributes

to what takes place inside.

>

> The fact that we have 365 points which of course must correspond

to

> the days of the year along with times, illustrates the idea behind

> TCM that everything is connected together and everything is, in

> essence ONE. As it becomes displayed in physical form, it

> becomes 'focused' and therefore seperates from its pure form of

ONE.

> The concept of Yin and Yang is a perfect example of this. From the

> pure form of ONE it is born into two elements in focused physical

> form which comprise all things within this dimesion. (I'll try and

> keep it TCM here as this is a TCM forum and not a spiritial one).

 

Attilio, I appreciate the distinction that you are trying

to make, but it has a strange effect on the discourse.

It's like we keep talking about something and always

have to say that we're not talking about it because

we've defined it as unacceptable subject matter...or

worse...forbidden words.

 

Look, there is an important spiritual dimension

to traditional medicine in China, and either we

recognize this fact as a group and include it

within our scope of discussions or we don't.

 

I can't deal with it both ways. Makes me feel

schizophrenic.

 

 

>

> Going back to Doaism, Buddism and Confucianism. What's at the

centre

> of these great ideas is the same pure form. All great theories,

> idealisms and religion have the same essence at their root.

 

 

What is it?

 

I

> believe that the ancient TCM pracitioners saw this and brought all

> into one.

 

What makes you believe this?

 

This is why some months back, i was discussing the notion,

> that western medicine is a form of TCM in that it comes from the

> same tree but is a different branch of the tree as is TCM. What

lies

> at the root is the essence of oneness with all healthcare systems

> the branch and illness and disease its fruit.

 

Wow. That blew right by me. I think I

get it, but I just seemed to be easy

to confuse today. Can you explain or

amplify on this notion of essence of

oneness with all healthcare systems the

branch and illness and disease its fruit?

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Ahh, i see i'm gonna get sucked into this thread. Yes, your right

Ken, plugging one's book is the aim of this forum yet discussing

extracts from it is ok.

 

The unacceptable subject matter or the forbidden words i think, are

for Chinese Herbal Medicine. I have no problems, and in-acutal-fact

embrace the idea of using both forbidden and non-forbidden words in

the same sentence. I'm a spiritialist at heart although i appreciate

the acamdemic notion of keeping these concepts seperated, although i

find that impossible as everything contains the thread of a higher

consciousness.

 

What lies at the root of all theories, religion and healthcare

systems? In my mind the same thing, happiness, love and health. As

to trying to enlarge upon the idea of the tree and its fruit. Well,

disease is a state of mind that isn't forced upon us but is rather

accepted by us at various levels of consciousness. And yes, that

does mean that further down the line disabled people did choose

their situation. And before anyone hounds me down for that, my

father is disabled.

 

It may be a good idea to post my Zangfu theory and cellular memory

article again to try and explain this. Unfortuanetly, its the only

piece of work i have that goes a little way to explianing this

although i may enrage a few list member's wrath again for it, but

what the hell. let me know if you wanna read it.

 

Attilio

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> Matt, Attilio, and others who are hanging by this thread,

>

> > Hi Matt. Firstly, i greatly enjoy your writings so please

> continue.

> > Secondly, there is no moderator, just an 'owner'.

>

> Matt, I'm just a member like you, but if

> there is any proscription forbidding

> plugging one's own work, then I sure

> don't belong here. After all, I only

> write books in order to start and

> contribute to discussions such as these.

> For me, the process of chewing over

> these ideas is, more or less, what it's

> all about...at least when it comes to

> what we do outside of the clinic

> or courseroom that most directly contributes

> to what takes place inside.

> >

> > The fact that we have 365 points which of course must correspond

> to

> > the days of the year along with times, illustrates the idea

behind

> > TCM that everything is connected together and everything is, in

> > essence ONE. As it becomes displayed in physical form, it

> > becomes 'focused' and therefore seperates from its pure form of

> ONE.

> > The concept of Yin and Yang is a perfect example of this. From

the

> > pure form of ONE it is born into two elements in focused

physical

> > form which comprise all things within this dimesion. (I'll try

and

> > keep it TCM here as this is a TCM forum and not a spiritial one).

>

> Attilio, I appreciate the distinction that you are trying

> to make, but it has a strange effect on the discourse.

> It's like we keep talking about something and always

> have to say that we're not talking about it because

> we've defined it as unacceptable subject matter...or

> worse...forbidden words.

>

> Look, there is an important spiritual dimension

> to traditional medicine in China, and either we

> recognize this fact as a group and include it

> within our scope of discussions or we don't.

>

> I can't deal with it both ways. Makes me feel

> schizophrenic.

>

>

> >

> > Going back to Doaism, Buddism and Confucianism. What's at the

> centre

> > of these great ideas is the same pure form. All great theories,

> > idealisms and religion have the same essence at their root.

>

>

> What is it?

>

> I

> > believe that the ancient TCM pracitioners saw this and brought

all

> > into one.

>

> What makes you believe this?

>

> This is why some months back, i was discussing the notion,

> > that western medicine is a form of TCM in that it comes from the

> > same tree but is a different branch of the tree as is TCM. What

> lies

> > at the root is the essence of oneness with all healthcare

systems

> > the branch and illness and disease its fruit.

>

> Wow. That blew right by me. I think I

> get it, but I just seemed to be easy

> to confuse today. Can you explain or

> amplify on this notion of essence of

> oneness with all healthcare systems the

> branch and illness and disease its fruit?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Attilio,

 

If it's a long article, it may take

me a while to get to and through it.

I'm currently packing for a period

of a couple of months on the road.

So my " free time " comes in dribs and

drabs. But by all means.

 

Glad to know that the forbidden word

list doesn't apply here.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken. Its about 2000 words. Read it at your leisure. Hope you have

a good vacation. Going anywhere nice?

 

Zangfu Theory & Cellular Memory

 

By Attilio P. D'Alberto

 

Introduction

 

The Huang Dei Nei Jing is the oldest and most important medical book

to originate from China. Its author and origin is unknown, but is

thought to have been written during the Warring States period (475-

221 B.C.) by numerous authors (Yanchi 1995, p2).

 

From this ancient classic comprised of two books; the Suwen `Plain

Questions' and the Lingshu `Miraculous Pivot', came the basic

foundations of Traditional (TCM). It introduced the

five-element theory, Yin & Yang, causes of disease, the pathology

and physiology of the Zangfu organs, interaction of Blood and the

channel system. All subsequent texts built upon the foundations laid

down by the Huang Dei Nei Jing.

 

The theories of the Huang Di Nei Jing still lay at the core of

clinical practice today, as they were over 2000 years ago. In this

essay, we shall look at the importance of Zangfu theory and its

application in orthodox medicine and society, notably cellular

memory.

 

Cellular memory is defined as the cells of living tissue having the

capability to memorise characteristics of the human they relate to.

With the advances of technologically driven orthodox medicine, we

have seen for half a century organ transplantation. It is only

recently that recipients of donated organs have begun to report

newfound memories, thoughts, emotions and characteristic preferences

new to them and so perceived to be that of their donor.

 

In orthodox medicine, it is mainly the heart, lung, liver and

kidneys that are transplanted all of which are Zang (Yin) organs

according to Traditional (TCM).

 

Can the theory of the Zangfu within the Huang Dei Nei Jing shed a

new light upon these modern findings known as cellular memory? The

aim of this essay is to answer that question.

 

Discussion

 

The Zangfu consist of five Yin (Zang) organs and five Yang (Fu)

organs. Each Yin organ has a function, associated organ, taste,

emotion, spirit, tone, planet, animal, season, element, colour, etc

and are categorised in appendix A. In this essay, we will be

concerned with each organ's emotion and spirit in relation to

cellular memory and are summarised in table 1.

 

Zang Organ Emotion Spirit

Liver Anger Hun (Ethereal Soul)

Heart Joy Shen (Mind)

Spleen Pensiveness Yi (Intellect)

Lung Grief Po (Corporeal Soul)

Kidney Fear Zhi (Will)

 

Table 1. The Zang emotions and spirits.

 

TCM is a holistic medicine that views the body and mind as one and

is based upon the theory of Yin and Yang as introduced medically by

the Huang Dei Nei Jing. Within this theory, everything is made-up of

two opposing forces, each containing the seed of its opposite.

Therefore, everything contains the essence of the whole. As the Su

Wen states in chapter 5:

 

" Yin and Yang are the guiding principles of all things. In the

mutual victory or defeat of Yin and Yang, the situation will be of

numerous varieties, so, Yin and Yang are the parents of variations "

(Wu and Wu 1997, p31).

 

The theory of Yin and Yang is the same as its modern western

equivalent; the holographic principle and is the basis of cellular

communication with the body-mind in dynamic interplay. As Gerber

(1996, p48-9) points out, the holographic principle is that `every

piece contains the whole' and can be seen in the cellular structure

of all living bodies. Every cell contains a copy of the master DNA

blueprint. From these two identical theories, we may conclude that

although each Zang organ contains its own function, emotion, spirit

and so forth, that each organ contains the functional essence of all

the characteristics of the Zangfu organs and the body as a whole.

 

Looking selectively at the spirit and emotion of the Zang, we can

see that each organ `houses' its own respect spirit and emotion.

Based upon the theory of Yin and Yang each Zang organ also houses

the essence of all the other organ's emotion and spirit within the

body. For example the heart in TCM, `houses' the Shen (mind) and is

the organ that controls all the Zangfu. This is because it

also `houses' the seed or essence of the rest of the Zangfu and the

body as a whole. The Su Wen chapter 8 stated that:

 

" The heart is the sovereign of all organs and represents the

consciousness of one's being. It is responsible for intelligence,

wisdom, and spiritual transformation " (Maoshing 1995, p34).

 

Since the seed (cell) contains the whole then we need to look closer

at what actually makes up the cells of the Zangfu. The word `cell'

derives from the Latin `cellula' meaning `small chamber'. Every cell

is 99.999% empty space with sub-atomic bundles of energy travelling

through it at the speed of light

(http://www.cellularmemory.net/cmr.htm 2002).

 

As Gerber (1996, p69) points out at the quantum level of subatomic

particles, all matter is literally frozen, particularized energy

fields (i.e. frozen light). Complex aggregates of matter (i.e.

molecules) are really specialized energy fields. Just as light has a

particular frequency or frequencies, so does matter have frequency

characteristics as well. The higher the frequency of matter, the

less dense, or more subtle the matter. Yin and Yang are in essence

light. They make up everything that is matter, i.e. the physical

cells, when light vibrates at a lower frequency and everything non-

matter, i.e. the emotions and spirits, when light vibrates at a

higher frequency. The emotions and spirits metaphorically trickle

down from the non-physical to the physical cells via the

transportation of light.

 

When an organ i.e. the heart is transplanted, the energy or cellular

memory housed in the cells of the tissues also carries the higher

frequencies of light (energy held within the forces of Yin and

Yang). This can be attributed to Einstein's infamous equation,

E=mc2. This viewpoint sees the human being as a multidimensional

organism made up of physical/cellular systems in dynamic interplay

with complex regulatory energetic fields (Gerber 1996, p68). If each

cell contains 99.999% energy then the cell is in essence light. This

allows the cell to contain the seed of the whole organism. Each of

the Zang spirits can also contain the seed of each other and are

able to communicate with each other at a higher frequency of light.

Therefore, if a heart is transplanted, the memory at the cellular

level and at the spiritual level, the Shen, will be moved with the

donated organ. In addition, the cellular essence or seed of the

remaining Zang organs and their relative spirit will also be

transplanted with the heart. Literally, the seed of the Hun, Yi, Po

and Zhi from the donor will be transported to the recipient of the

donated organ. The Shen of the heart is the sovereign of

consciousness and in essence is made of higher frequencies of light

and is reiterated in Chuang Tzu's `The Fasting of the Heart', (cited

in Diebschlag, http://www.planetherbs.com/articles/psych_tcm.html

1997):

 

" Look at this window; it is nothing but a hole in the wall,

but because of it the whole room is full of light.

So when the faculties are empty, the heart is full of light.

Being full of light it becomes an influence

by which others are secretly transformed " .

 

Orthodox research has shown a theory of how the Zangfu's emotion and

spirit can be related to cellular memory. Pert (1999, p141) states

that peptides and other informational substances are the

biochemicals of emotion. This theory is further supported by

Pearsall, Schwartz and Russek. Pearsall et al. (2002, p191-192)

suggest that the recurrent feedback loop of energy exists in all

atomic, molecular and cellular systems and store information and

energy to various degrees.

 

Supporting evidence appears in the study by Miles Herkenham (cited

in Pert, 1999, p139) that less than 2 percent of neuronal

communication actually occurs at the synapse. If so then in actual-

fact the communication of various parts of the organism to other

parts of the body is conducted by the release of emotions that are

stored in the body via the release of neuropeptide ligands, and that

memories are held in their receptors (Pert 1999, p147).

Neuropeptides are found all over the body; the heart, lung, brain

etc. When a receptor is flooded with a ligand, it changes the cell

membrane in such a way that the probability of an electrical impulse

travelling across the membrane where the receptor resides is

facilitated or inhibited, thereafter affecting the choice of

neuronal circuitry that will be used (Pert 1999, p143).

 

Further supporting evidence appears in the study by Schwartz and

Russek (1997, 1998a, 1998b) (cited in Pearsall et al. 2002, p192)

that the rejection process seen in organ transplantation, might not

only reflect the rejection of the material comprising the cells, but

also the cellular information and energy stored within the cells as

well. As Pert (1999, p141 and 192) states, emotional expression is

always tied to a specific flow of peptides in the body, repressed

traumas caused by overwhelming and chronically suppressed emotions

(especially those involved in the traumatic experience of death)

result in a massive disturbance of the psychosomatic network and can

be stored in a body part.

 

All of the following are reports taken from donor's relatives and

recipients who have undergone heart transplantation. The first

report comes from a 19-year-old donor who was killed in an

automobile accident. The recipient was a 29-year-old woman diagnosed

with cardiomyopathy secondary to endocarditis. The donor's mother

reported that before her daughter died she kept saying how she could

feel the impact of the car hitting them. The recipient reported that

she could actually feel the accident that her donor had been in

(Pearsall et al 2002, p198). This report corresponds to Maciocia's

(1993, p11) theory that the mind (and therefore the heart)

can `feel' them the emotions. Although from a holographic

prospective (Yin and Yang) all the Zang related emotions and spirits

of the donor, especially the strong final emotions of her injury

that lead to her death, will be transplanted with the cells of the

heart. Maciocia (1993, p11) goes on to explain that the emotions

affects all the other organs too, but it is only the mind that

actually recognizes and feels them. Only the heart can feel it

because it stores the mind, which is responsible for insight. This

is an accurate account of the heart, yet viewed from the

holographic/Yin and Yang prospective the heart contains the essence

of all emotions housed within the body. The transplantation of the

heart will also bring about the transplantation of the other Zang

characteristics, just as much as if a kidney was transplanted with

its prevailing emotion and spirit. The importance of the heart is

reiterated in chapter 8 of the Su Wen:

 

" As the heart is the monarch in the organs, it dominates the

functions of the various viscera. " (Wu and Wu 1997, p56).

 

The second report comes from a 34-year-old donor who was a police

officer and was killed while trying to arrest a drug dealer. The

recipient was a 56-year-old college professor diagnosed with

atherosclerosis and ischemic heart disease. The donor's wife

reported that her husband was shot in the face by a man with long

hair and a beard. The last thing he must of seen was a terrible

flash. The recipient reported that he began to have dreams a few

weeks after receiving his donated heart. He would see a flash of

light right in front of his face that began to feel really hot and

would burn. And just before that time he would get a flash of a man

that looked like Jesus (Pearsall et al 2002, p202). Again, we can

see that the transplantation of the heart has bought the memories of

the donor. Could it also be that the Hun (ethereal soul) `housed'

within the liver has a portion of itself within the heart and that

the traumatised ethereal soul unable to express its suppressed

emotion (due to the death of its host) will express it within the

body, the Shen of the recipient?

 

Conclusion

 

With the unveiling of cellular memory, the medical world has

concluded that the use of immunosuppressant drugs and the stress of

surgery have lead to these findings. I disagree. The idea of organs

having emotions and therefore memories is not a new one and has been

with us for thousands of years. It seems to be taking humankind

longer than that to believe it can be true.

 

A few questions arise from this essay. Can TCM assist the recipient

in the second report with his dreamed disturbed sleep and release or

balance the unexpressed emotion of his donor? Moreover, could TCM

have the possibility to overcome the rejection of donated organs?

 

Attilio

 

Chinese Medicine , " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

> Attilio,

>

> If it's a long article, it may take

> me a while to get to and through it.

> I'm currently packing for a period

> of a couple of months on the road.

> So my " free time " comes in dribs and

> drabs. But by all means.

>

> Glad to know that the forbidden word

> list doesn't apply here.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

cellular memory? >>>>I have tried to do a med search for such memories and could not find anything. Do you have other references i.e. other than books?

 

He would see a flash of light right in front of his face that began to feel really hot and would burn. And just before that time he would get a flash of a man that looked like Jesus

>>>I think since the police man was not Jesus, this type of data results in strong questions as to the validity of such an experience. Is it a memory?

Alon

[Guest guest]

Yes Alon, you won't find much. It still isn't recognised as a syndrome and therefore little has been written on the subject by academics. I do however, enclose the original research paper by Pearsall that i used. I hope you find it interesting.

 

As to your comments about Jesus, you have read the paragraph wrongly. The policeman was shot by a drug dealer who had long hair and a beard. The person who recieved the dead policeman's donated organ was the one who saw the drug dealer with long hair and a beard and said he looked like Jesus as most people do with long hair and beards. I used to have long hair and a beard and got alot of Jesus flack for it.

 

AttilioAlon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

 

cellular memory? >>>>I have tried to do a med search for such memories and could not find anything. Do you have other references i.e. other than books?

 

He would see a flash of light right in front of his face that began to feel really hot and would burn. And just before that time he would get a flash of a man that looked like Jesus

>>>I think since the police man was not Jesus, this type of data results in strong questions as to the validity of such an experience. Is it a memory?

AlonFor practitioners, students and those interested in Traditional (TCM) ranging from acupuncture, herbal medicine, tuina and nutrition.Membership rules require that you adhere to NO commercial postings, NO religious postings and NO spam.Web site homepage: Chinese Medicine/

[Guest guest]

Attilio wrote: The unacceptable subject matter or the forbidden words i think, are for Chinese Herbal Medicine. I have no problems, and in-acutal-fact embrace the idea of using both forbidden and non-forbidden words in the same sentence. I'm a spiritialist at heart although i appreciate the acamdemic notion of keeping these concepts seperated, although i find that impossible as everything contains the thread of a higher consciousness.

 

Attilio,

 

Thank you. I had been feeling that this was a safe place for me to post. ;-)

 

Emmanuel Segmen

[Guest guest]

policeman's donated organ was the one who saw the drug dealer with long hair and a beard and said he looked like Jesus as most people do with long hair and beards. I used to have long hair and a beard and got alot of Jesus flack for it.

>>>Interesting

Alon

[Guest guest]

HUH?

--- ALON MARCUS <alonmarcus wrote:

> policeman's donated organ was the one who saw the

> drug dealer with long hair and a beard and said he

> looked like Jesus as most people do with long hair

> and beards. I used to have long hair and a beard and

> got alot of Jesus flack for it.

> >>>Interesting

> Alon

 

 

 

 

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