Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi All, & Hi Emmanuel wrote: > Without confirmatory evidence THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO WM/conventional scientists, CAM practitioners - whatever their modalities and clinical expertise - will remain OUTSIDERS on the fringes of mainstream medicine. Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > ... Your comment above is precisely the idea I wish to dispute. > ...Those whom we now call Western medicine doctors were fringe > element outsiders until the early 1900s. Agreed, but that has changed radically today! Emmanuel: > Their method of overcoming homeopaths and all other comers had > little to do with double blind studies. They astounded their > audience with successful surgeries. They pulled out their little > trick called antiseptic technique. Dr. Brodman probed the human > brain for centers of function and so on. They also made profoundly > astute political moves while the audience was awed by their > surgeries. Agreed. Let us return to the POLITICAL aspects later. They are all- important in my definition of medical OUTSIDERS. Emmanuel: > They took over the professional body called the AMA and turned it > into a powerful politcal action committee. Allopaths became the power-group not just in USA, but all over the developed world! Emmanuel: > They then transformed the medical school curriculums and their > credentialing, and then establised the FDA. Again, all over the developed world, not just in the USA. Emmanuel: > The rest, as they say, is history. YOU said it, and I agree! Emmanuel: > The allopaths did not ever present anything acceptable to the > homeopaths or other conventional [i.e. non-allopathic] > practitioners of their time. Again, YOU said it! And that is why I said that I will not hold my breath for meaningful conciliatory compromise, or mutually agreed research protocols, between allopathic and CAM practitioners now. I would like to see that dialogue/respect, but I do not expect it to happen. Emmanuel: > I recommend that CM practitioners figure out that their actions must in > fact proceed along a much more monied and political vein if they > want a more central part the stage. Paradigms become dominant > because of economic and political interests. NOW we are talking! Power-play is all about political clout. Politics is often a very dirty game, and political clout is all about money, pulling strings, calling in favours owed, greasing appropriate palms, or eliminating [demonising/destroying the credibility of] opponents, especially leaders in the opposing side(s). The " Dirty Tricks " brigadesare never without projects to discredit/cripple the power of their perceived opponents. Emmanuel: > It also helps if the paradigm works and creates a bit of a stir in > the audience. Also read Kuhn. One of the most important things > Kuhn notes is that we scientists do research only on things that we > already know about. All of the research chiefs at UC Berkeley, UC > San Francisco, Stanford or San Francisco State University would > scold the hell out of the graduate students if the graduate > students even slightly imagined anything for which there were no > established materials and methods. Double blind studies done > perfectly on behalf of CM will convince no one in Western medicine > of anything. It might scare them, but it won't win them over > because it's not in their economic nor political interest. Earlier tonight, I wrote to LIKEMList on a similar thread [re isopathic research]: " ]Roger], Please raise the issue of isopathy research if you wish [with our Research Director]. I predict that your suggestions, even if detailed and with an in-depth literature review, will go down like a lead balloon! ...IMO, there are very few " lateral thinkers " at senior level in the area of research planning in most national bodies. They keep their eyes on the BIG money, and the BIG money for [our] research is ploughed into Biotech and convenience pre-cooked foods - the very areas that you (and many of us!) reckon may bring disasterous longterm effects to humanity. IMO, the main reason why open-minded scientists shun research in.complementary medicine is lack of good research reported in the international peer-reviewed science journals. It is a classical Catch- 22; serious research demands serious money, but the usual agencies (the multinationals) will not provide the funding because they perceive such research as being against their commercial (profit-based, monopoly) interests! IMO, governments will not fund much research in the area either, because their research advisers are often (a) heavily committed to EBM, or (b) have financial interests in the multinationals " . Emmanuel: > It might convince a few insurance company administrators or > congressmen, and therein will lie the path to success at the > center stage. More likely research studies will do no such thing. > I'm recalling a 1999 Journal of the American Medical Association > article proclaiming that in 1998 Americans spent 40% of their > health related dollars on alternative medical treatment and over > the counter alternative remedies. In 1999 the New England Journal > of Medicine unleased a torrent of editorials lashing chiropratic > medicine and CM. I believe WM will respond badly to any success > that CM has. I also believe that CM will have success as more > practitioners are trained in CM and Americans spend their money on > CM rather than on WM for treatments that CM does well. ... > Emmanuel Segmen Agreed. The allopathic establishment is running very scared now; they see the amounts of money " diverted " to CAM worldwide. Already, the FDA has been " nobbled " to regulate any herbs, vitamins, or other supplements that have any complaints of adverse reactions against them. [NOTE: They are much less severe on allopathic drugs, even those for which there is ample evidence of severe side-effects. After all, doesn't everyone know that many allopathic drugs carry high risk, but that the patient must accept that risk? ;-) Seriously, if we could persuade the FDA and like agencies in other countries to be as tough with modern drugs as they are with CAM remedies, we might be on the road to better parity of the two systems]. IMO, the war (and it IS a WAR over power, status amd money] is just beginning in earnest. It is going to be a dirtier war than ever in the past, because there is much more money at stake today than before. Meanwhile, whether we like it or not, allopathy IS the leading power in terms of national and international political clout. In that sense, IT is the real mainstream of medicine. It has powerful friends in the pharmaceutical industry, in Government, in the funding agencies, in the National Drugs Boards. It controls the Hospital industry, public health policy, etc, etc. Allopathy, if only by its key role (if not TOTAL control) of intensive care, cancer treatment, Obs/Gyn, etc, but most importantly, mainstream university education, IS IN THE SADDLE, and will not be unhorsed easily! Also consider the average salary structure of allopaths versus CAM practitioners [as discussed on the Lists recently]. Some of our allopathic " specialists " turn over 4-6 unfortunate patients/hour at fees of 100+ EU/session. (1 EU = 1.19 US$). That is 400-600+ EU/hour. What CAM professional, no matter how successful, can earn even a small fraction of that income? How many CAM practitioners sit on National decision-making boards in medicine? Very few, I suspect, relative to their numbers on the ground. Maybe Emmanuel is right that even the BEST CAM research will not convince committed allopaths to cooperate fully (and on an equal basis of respect) with CAM practitioners. But, IMO, without that research, we will get nowhere near the centre of mainstream medicine; we will always be outsiders. Good research that proves the benefits of CAM may not convince committed allopaths, but it MAY convince the Health Insurance Companies, and senior politicians, especially Ministers of Finance and others in key spending roles, to divert much more funding and resources OFFICIALLY in the direction of CAM. Phil wrote: > IMO, the advent of a truly Integrated Medicine could be hundreds, > if not thousands, of years away. Emmanuel: > Phil, This is the precise opinion of my own mentors both in CM > and in Western science. It took billions of people in China > thousands of years to develop and literally evolve the traditions > of CM. Several of my mentors (PhDs) have looked at me quizzically > and asked, " Why do you think that Western scientists can do it any > faster? " Emmanuel Segmen Emmanuel, we agree again! Thank you for provoking depth in this discussion. Any other comments from Listers out there? Or is the topic just too depressing? Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Question? 1. Can a person practice acupuncture even without a degree (learning through a book)? 2. In the Philippines there are no laws for acupuncture practice but it supports Alternative Medicine through legislation. Am I free to practice it even with little training (just short course training program)? 3. In ancient China most practitioners acquired knowledge through the teachings of elders, so do you think acupuncture can be practiced with little knowledge and over time acquire the necessary skills through experience? Thanks! Eric < wrote: Hi All, & Hi Emmanuel wrote: > Without confirmatory evidence THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO WM/conventional scientists, CAM practitioners -whatever their modalities and clinical expertise - will remain OUTSIDERS on the fringes of mainstream medicine. Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > ... Your comment above is precisely the idea I wish to dispute.> ...Those whom we now call Western medicine doctors were fringe> element outsiders until the early 1900s. Agreed, but that has changed radically today!Emmanuel:> Their method of overcoming homeopaths and all other comers had> little to do with double blind studies. They astounded their> audience with successful surgeries. They pulled out their little> trick called antiseptic technique. Dr. Brodman probed the human> brain for centers of function and so on. They also made profoundly> astute political moves while the audience was awed by their> surgeries. Agreed. Let us return to the POLITICAL aspects later. They are all-important in my definition of medical OUTSIDERS.Emmanuel:> They took over the professional body called the AMA and turned it> into a powerful politcal action committee. Allopaths became the power-group not just in USA, but all over the developed world!Emmanuel:> They then transformed the medical school curriculums and their> credentialing, and then establised the FDA. Again, all over the developed world, not just in the USA.Emmanuel:> The rest, as they say, is history. YOU said it, and I agree!Emmanuel:> The allopaths did not ever present anything acceptable to the> homeopaths or other conventional [i.e. non-allopathic]> practitioners of their time. Again, YOU said it! And that is why I said that I will not hold my breath for meaningful conciliatory compromise, or mutually agreed research protocols, between allopathic and CAM practitioners now. I would like to see that dialogue/respect, but I do not expect it to happen.Emmanuel:> I recommend that CM practitioners figure out that their actions must in> fact proceed along a much more monied and political vein if they> want a more central part the stage. Paradigms become dominant> because of economic and political interests. NOW we are talking! Power-play is all about political clout. Politics is often a very dirty game, and political clout is all about money, pulling strings, calling in favours owed, greasing appropriate palms, or eliminating [demonising/destroying the credibility of] opponents, especially leaders in the opposing side(s). The "Dirty Tricks" brigadesare never without projects to discredit/cripple the power of their perceived opponents.Emmanuel:> It also helps if the paradigm works and creates a bit of a stir in> the audience. Also read Kuhn. One of the most important things> Kuhn notes is that we scientists do research only on things that we> already know about. All of the research chiefs at UC Berkeley, UC> San Francisco, Stanford or San Francisco State University would> scold the hell out of the graduate students if the graduate> students even slightly imagined anything for which there were no> established materials and methods. Double blind studies done> perfectly on behalf of CM will convince no one in Western medicine> of anything. It might scare them, but it won't win them over> because it's not in their economic nor political interest. Earlier tonight, I wrote to LIKEMList on a similar thread [re isopathic research]: "]Roger], Please raise the issue of isopathy research if you wish [with our Research Director]. I predict that your suggestions, even if detailed and with an in-depth literature review, will go down like a lead balloon! ...IMO, there are very few "lateral thinkers" at senior level in the area of research planning in most national bodies. They keep their eyes on the BIG money, and the BIG money for [our] research is ploughed into Biotech and convenience pre-cooked foods - the very areas that you (and many of us!) reckon may bring disasterous longterm effects to humanity. IMO, the main reason why open-minded scientists shun research in.complementary medicine is lack of good research reported in the international peer-reviewed science journals. It is a classical Catch- 22; serious research demands serious money, but the usual agencies (the multinationals) will not provide the funding because they perceive such research as being against their commercial (profit-based, monopoly) interests! IMO, governments will not fund much research in the area either, because their research advisers are often (a) heavily committed to EBM, or (b) have financial interests in the multinationals". Emmanuel:> It might convince a few insurance company administrators or> congressmen, and therein will lie the path to success at the> center stage. More likely research studies will do no such thing. > I'm recalling a 1999 Journal of the American Medical Association> article proclaiming that in 1998 Americans spent 40% of their> health related dollars on alternative medical treatment and over> the counter alternative remedies. In 1999 the New England Journal> of Medicine unleased a torrent of editorials lashing chiropratic> medicine and CM. I believe WM will respond badly to any success> that CM has. I also believe that CM will have success as more> practitioners are trained in CM and Americans spend their money on> CM rather than on WM for treatments that CM does well. ...> Emmanuel Segmen Agreed. The allopathic establishment is running very scared now; they see the amounts of money "diverted" to CAM worldwide. Already, the FDA has been "nobbled" to regulate any herbs, vitamins, or other supplements that have any complaints of adverse reactions against them. [NOTE: They are much less severe on allopathic drugs, even those for which there is ample evidence of severe side-effects. After all, doesn't everyone know that many allopathic drugs carry high risk, but that the patient must accept that risk? ;-) Seriously, if we could persuade the FDA and like agencies in other countries to be as tough with modern drugs as they are with CAM remedies, we might be on the road to better parity of the two systems].IMO, the war (and it IS a WAR over power, status amd money] is just beginning in earnest. It is going to be a dirtier war than ever in the past, because there is much more money at stake today than before. Meanwhile, whether we like it or not, allopathy IS the leading power in terms of national and international political clout. In that sense, IT is the real mainstream of medicine. It has powerful friends in the pharmaceutical industry, in Government, in the funding agencies, in the National Drugs Boards. It controls the Hospital industry, public health policy, etc, etc. Allopathy, if only by its key role (if not TOTAL control) of intensive care, cancer treatment, Obs/Gyn, etc, but most importantly, mainstream university education, IS IN THE SADDLE, and will not be unhorsed easily! Also consider the average salary structure of allopaths versus CAM practitioners [as discussed on the Lists recently]. Some of our allopathic "specialists" turn over 4-6 unfortunate patients/hour at fees of 100+ EU/session. (1 EU = 1.19 US$). That is 400-600+ EU/hour. What CAM professional, no matter how successful, can earn even a small fraction of that income?How many CAM practitioners sit on National decision-making boards in medicine? Very few, I suspect, relative to their numbers on the ground.Maybe Emmanuel is right that even the BEST CAM research will not convince committed allopaths to cooperate fully (and on an equal basis of respect) with CAM practitioners. But, IMO, without that research, we will get nowhere near the centre of mainstream medicine; we will always be outsiders. Good research that proves the benefits of CAM may not convince committed allopaths, but it MAY convince the Health Insurance Companies, and senior politicians, especially Ministers of Finance and others in key spending roles, to divert much more funding and resources OFFICIALLY in the direction of CAM.Phil wrote: > IMO, the advent of a truly Integrated Medicine could be hundreds,> if not thousands, of years away. Emmanuel:> Phil, This is the precise opinion of my own mentors both in CM> and in Western science. It took billions of people in China> thousands of years to develop and literally evolve the traditions> of CM. Several of my mentors (PhDs) have looked at me quizzically> and asked, "Why do you think that Western scientists can do it any> faster?" Emmanuel Segmen Emmanuel, we agree again! Thank you for provoking depth in this discussion. Any other comments from Listers out there? Or is the topic just too depressing?Best regards,WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, IrelandWWW : Email: <Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, IrelandWWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htmEmail: <Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]For practitioners, students and those interested in Traditional (TCM) ranging from acupuncture, herbal medicine, tuina and nutrition.Membership rules require that you adhere to NO commercial postings, NO religious postings and NO spam.Web site homepage: Chinese Medicine/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi Eric. The situation in the Phillippines is pretty much the same as in the UK. People can set up shop and call themselves Chinese doctors with little or no training at all. Thank God, that will change in 2005 when regulation comes into effect. Actually, Phil, do you know what will happen to the Western 'acupuncturists' in the UK who have been on the infamous weekend courses? Anyway, Erci, you really need to have some form of training. Reading a book cannot give you everything as often enough clinical practice differs alot from textbook cases. Can you 'shadow' a Chinese doctor in your area. That would be better. Of course, experience is everything. It's a question of where you start from and how quickly you pick it up. To sum up, have a look in your local area for a training course and try to shadow a doctor by working for free. I hope this helps you. Attilio Chinese Medicine , Eric Chan <ultrablue33> wrote: > Question? > > 1. Can a person practice acupuncture even without a degree (learning through a book)? > 2. In the Philippines there are no laws for acupuncture practice but it supports Alternative Medicine through legislation. Am I free to practice it even with little training (just short course training program)? > 3. In ancient China most practitioners acquired knowledge through the teachings of elders, so do you think acupuncture can be practiced with little knowledge and over time acquire the necessary skills through experience? > > Thanks! > > Eric > > <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, & Hi Emmanuel > > wrote: > Without confirmatory evidence THAT IS > ACCEPTABLE TO WM/conventional scientists, CAM practitioners - > whatever their modalities and clinical expertise - will remain > OUTSIDERS on the fringes of mainstream medicine. > > Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > > ... Your comment above is precisely the idea I wish to dispute. > > ...Those whom we now call Western medicine doctors were fringe > > element outsiders until the early 1900s. > > Agreed, but that has changed radically today! > > Emmanuel: > > Their method of overcoming homeopaths and all other comers had > > little to do with double blind studies. They astounded their > > audience with successful surgeries. They pulled out their little > > trick called antiseptic technique. Dr. Brodman probed the human > > brain for centers of function and so on. They also made profoundly > > astute political moves while the audience was awed by their > > surgeries. > > Agreed. Let us return to the POLITICAL aspects later. They are all- > important in my definition of medical OUTSIDERS. > > Emmanuel: > > They took over the professional body called the AMA and turned it > > into a powerful politcal action committee. > > Allopaths became the power-group not just in USA, but all over the > developed world! > > Emmanuel: > > They then transformed the medical school curriculums and their > > credentialing, and then establised the FDA. > > Again, all over the developed world, not just in the USA. > > Emmanuel: > > The rest, as they say, is history. > > YOU said it, and I agree! > > Emmanuel: > > The allopaths did not ever present anything acceptable to the > > homeopaths or other conventional [i.e. non-allopathic] > > practitioners of their time. > > Again, YOU said it! And that is why I said that I will not hold my > breath for meaningful conciliatory compromise, or mutually agreed > research protocols, between allopathic and CAM practitioners now. > I would like to see that dialogue/respect, but I do not expect it to > happen. > > Emmanuel: > > I recommend that CM practitioners figure out that their actions must in > > fact proceed along a much more monied and political vein if they > > want a more central part the stage. Paradigms become dominant > > because of economic and political interests. > > NOW we are talking! Power-play is all about political clout. Politics > is often a very dirty game, and political clout is all about money, > pulling strings, calling in favours owed, greasing appropriate palms, > or eliminating [demonising/destroying the credibility of] opponents, > especially leaders in the opposing side(s). The " Dirty Tricks " > brigadesare never without projects to discredit/cripple the power of > their perceived opponents. > > Emmanuel: > > It also helps if the paradigm works and creates a bit of a stir in > > the audience. Also read Kuhn. One of the most important things > > Kuhn notes is that we scientists do research only on things that we > > already know about. All of the research chiefs at UC Berkeley, UC > > San Francisco, Stanford or San Francisco State University would > > scold the hell out of the graduate students if the graduate > > students even slightly imagined anything for which there were no > > established materials and methods. Double blind studies done > > perfectly on behalf of CM will convince no one in Western medicine > > of anything. It might scare them, but it won't win them over > > because it's not in their economic nor political interest. > > Earlier tonight, I wrote to LIKEMList on a similar thread [re > isopathic research]: " ]Roger], Please raise the issue of isopathy > research if you wish [with our Research Director]. I predict that > your suggestions, even if detailed and with an in-depth literature > review, will go down like a lead balloon! ...IMO, there are very few > " lateral thinkers " at senior level in the area of research planning in > most national bodies. They keep their eyes on the BIG money, and > the BIG money for [our] research is ploughed into Biotech and > convenience pre-cooked foods - the very areas that you (and many > of us!) reckon may bring disasterous longterm effects to humanity. > IMO, the main reason why open-minded scientists shun research > in.complementary medicine is lack of good research reported in the > international peer-reviewed science journals. It is a classical Catch- > 22; serious research demands serious money, but the usual > agencies (the multinationals) will not provide the funding because > they perceive such research as being against their commercial > (profit-based, monopoly) interests! IMO, governments will not fund > much research in the area either, because their research advisers > are often (a) heavily committed to EBM, or (b) have financial > interests in the multinationals " . > > Emmanuel: > > It might convince a few insurance company administrators or > > congressmen, and therein will lie the path to success at the > > center stage. More likely research studies will do no such thing. > > I'm recalling a 1999 Journal of the American Medical Association > > article proclaiming that in 1998 Americans spent 40% of their > > health related dollars on alternative medical treatment and over > > the counter alternative remedies. In 1999 the New England Journal > > of Medicine unleased a torrent of editorials lashing chiropratic > > medicine and CM. I believe WM will respond badly to any success > > that CM has. I also believe that CM will have success as more > > practitioners are trained in CM and Americans spend their money on > > CM rather than on WM for treatments that CM does well. ... > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Agreed. The allopathic establishment is running very scared now; > they see the amounts of money " diverted " to CAM worldwide. > Already, the FDA has been " nobbled " to regulate any herbs, > vitamins, or other supplements that have any complaints of adverse > reactions against them. [NOTE: They are much less severe on > allopathic drugs, even those for which there is ample evidence of > severe side-effects. After all, doesn't everyone know that many > allopathic drugs carry high risk, but that the patient must accept > that risk? ;-) Seriously, if we could persuade the FDA and like > agencies in other countries to be as tough with modern drugs as > they are with CAM remedies, we might be on the road to better > parity of the two systems]. > > IMO, the war (and it IS a WAR over power, status amd money] is > just beginning in earnest. It is going to be a dirtier war than ever in > the past, because there is much more money at stake today than > before. Meanwhile, whether we like it or not, allopathy IS the > leading power in terms of national and international political clout. > In that sense, IT is the real mainstream of medicine. It has powerful > friends in the pharmaceutical industry, in Government, in the > funding agencies, in the National Drugs Boards. It controls the > Hospital industry, public health policy, etc, etc. Allopathy, if only > by its key role (if not TOTAL control) of intensive care, cancer > treatment, Obs/Gyn, etc, but most importantly, mainstream > university education, IS IN THE SADDLE, and will not be unhorsed > easily! > > Also consider the average salary structure of allopaths versus CAM > practitioners [as discussed on the Lists recently]. Some of our > allopathic " specialists " turn over 4-6 unfortunate patients/hour at > fees of 100+ EU/session. (1 EU = 1.19 US$). That is 400-600+ > EU/hour. What CAM professional, no matter how successful, can > earn even a small fraction of that income? > > How many CAM practitioners sit on National decision-making > boards in medicine? Very few, I suspect, relative to their numbers > on the ground. > > Maybe Emmanuel is right that even the BEST CAM research will > not convince committed allopaths to cooperate fully (and on an > equal basis of respect) with CAM practitioners. But, IMO, without > that research, we will get nowhere near the centre of mainstream > medicine; we will always be outsiders. > > Good research that proves the benefits of CAM may not convince > committed allopaths, but it MAY convince the Health Insurance > Companies, and senior politicians, especially Ministers of Finance > and others in key spending roles, to divert much more funding and > resources OFFICIALLY in the direction of CAM. > > Phil wrote: > > IMO, the advent of a truly Integrated Medicine could be hundreds, > > if not thousands, of years away. > > Emmanuel: > > Phil, This is the precise opinion of my own mentors both in CM > > and in Western science. It took billions of people in China > > thousands of years to develop and literally evolve the traditions > > of CM. Several of my mentors (PhDs) have looked at me quizzically > > and asked, " Why do you think that Western scientists can do it any > > faster? " Emmanuel Segmen > > Emmanuel, we agree again! > > Thank you for provoking depth in this discussion. Any other > comments from Listers out there? Or is the topic just too > depressing? > > > > Best regards, > > > WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > WWW : > Email: <@e...> > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > Email: <@e...> > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 In a message dated 7/29/2003 12:17:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, ultrablue33 writes: 1. Can a person practice acupuncture even without a degree (learning through a book)? 2. In the Philippines there are no laws for acupuncture practice but it supports Alternative Medicine through legislation. Am I free to practice it even with little training (just short course training program)? 3. In ancient China most practitioners acquired knowledge through the teachings of elders, so do you think acupuncture can be practiced with little knowledge and over time acquire the necessary skills through experience? I would say it could be quite dangerous to just "learn from a book" and start treating patients. Acupuncture is more than just poking needes into points. There is a great deal of work that goes into the training of acupuncturists. There is study but also observation, a goodly amount of theory and diagnosis training, discussion and practice of treatment protocols, point location, needling lab and clinical experience all under the supervision of trained professionals with a solid amount of experience. This is not only important for the practitioner, but also their future patients' safety and well being. I feel it is imperative there be the opportunity for observation of those who are skilled as well as the opportunity to hone one's skills with supervision (not just needling, but the diagnosis and treatment protocol aspect as well). I think this point is well illustrated by the fact that most pneumothorax reported as a result of acupuncture are the error of an MD with little proper training in acupuncture (presuming they know what they are doing simply by virtue of being an MD). [this information from an old instructor - there are (1) weekend programs for MD's to "learn acupuncture" where they learn very basic information] While regulations vary from state to state and from country to country, there is an important element of what is ethical here. You may be able to treat people legally without proper training in your country, but would it be ethical? Personally, I would not feel comfortable treating someone if I didn't really know what I was doing. In fact, if I feel a patient would be best treated elsewhere, I refer them. Certainly, I wouldn't want someone needling me that didn't know what they were doing. Which leads to one question I have .... would you be honest with your patients about your training (or lack thereof) and skill level? If you are honest with people about your training and they are willing to partake in your explorations, I consider that a matter of free will and informed consent. It is their risk to take if they so choose. But if you put up a shingle claiming to be an acupuncturist without any clarification, it is, in effect, dishonest. People will assume you have the proper knowledge and training to do what you are offering. Even with proper training, there is a learning curve and time of development with one's skills. I feel I will never stop learning if I continue to work toward greater understanding. Hopefully, we all continue to acquire knowledge and improve upon our skills as we go along. But it is important to start with a solid base of information and basic skill. I wish you well in your studies, Eric. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi All, & Eric, & Attilio, Eric Chan wrote: > 1. Can a person practice acupuncture even without a degree > (learning through a book)? My understanding in relation to the practice of AP in humans is: (a) In free societies any citizen who wishes to learn AP (in whatever depth) can practice AP on themselves, or (provided they do not ask a fee) can practice on consenting adults. (b) Provided they do not claim to be professionally qualified, in societies that have " Common Law " (as in Ireland and UK), an unqualified person with a modicum of training can practice AP on, AND ask a fee from, consenting adults under the Common Law principle of Caveat Emptor. © In most other countries that have formal regulations on the practice of medicine, and on the minimum qualifications needed to practice related medical techniques, only professionally qualified people can practice AP. > 2. In the Philippines there are no laws for acupuncture practice > but it supports Alternative Medicine through legislation. Am I > free to practice it even with little training (just short course > training program)? I do not know the Laws of the Phillipines. You may need to ask a professional who lives there. > 3. In ancient China most practitioners acquired knowledge through the teachings of elders, so do you think acupuncture can be practiced with little knowledge and over time acquire the necessary skills through experience? Thanks! Eric My answer is the same as in (1), above - it depends on the country and its Laws. In Ireland, under Common Law, all degrees of therapeutic expertise (and none) " in business " . The gamut of " therapeutic services " (in the broadest sense) runs from commercially-minded health-food store owners (offering tuina or homeopathic/herbal " consultations " ), to Seventh-Son-of a Seventh-Son (offering Faith Healing), to saintly priests (trying to heal by use of Prayer and Relics of a saint), to untrained " bonesetters " (some of whom are quite brilliant - I have been treated with immediate success by one of them for dsc- related excruciating backpain that had lasted for 5 weeks). On the other end of the scale, we have highly qualified professionals in all aspects of therapy, allopathic and holistic. And, in between, we have younger and older students trying to improve their skills in their preferred therapeutic modality. I suspect that there are not many other countries with such a laid- back attitude as Ireland has to what consenting adults may do in the field of therapy! But mainstream medicine holds centre-stage and commands the hghest fees. Attilio wrote: > Hi Eric. The situation in the Phillippines is pretty much the same > as in the UK. People can set up shop and call themselves Chinese > doctors with little or no training at all. Thank God, that will > change in 2005 when regulation comes into effect. Actually, Phil, > do you know what will happen to the Western 'acupuncturists' in > the UK who have been on the infamous weekend courses? Attilio, I am not sure, but I suspect that the EU mania for licencing everyone will eventually extend to all therapists within the EU. (I suspect that we sooon will need a licence to have a leak or go to bed with our partners!) > Anyway, Eric, you really need to have some form of training. > Reading a book cannot give you everything as often enough clinical > practice differs alot from textbook cases. Can you 'shadow' a > Chinese doctor in your area. That would be better... (etc) I agree, .Attilio. The more one studies and practices, the more skilled one becomes, and the more " job-satisfaction " and self- confidence one gains. As many have said on the lists, the study of AP or CHM is a lifetime's work. I would say it is the work of several lifetimes! Eric, would YOU like to go for treatment to an amateur with " one book in his head " , or 30 hours of study, over say 3 weekends, under her belt? I think not! Best regards, WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland WWW : Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Email: < Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Lol, i take it you have an aversion to Brussels! Actually there is some good text on Irish Legislation on Michael McIntyre's website www.euroherb.com Attilio Chinese Medicine , " " <@e...> wrote: > Hi All, & Eric, & Attilio, > > Eric Chan wrote: > > 1. Can a person practice acupuncture even without a degree > > (learning through a book)? > > My understanding in relation to the practice of AP in humans is: > > (a) In free societies any citizen who wishes to learn AP (in > whatever depth) can practice AP on themselves, or (provided they > do not ask a fee) can practice on consenting adults. > > (b) Provided they do not claim to be professionally qualified, in > societies that have " Common Law " (as in Ireland and UK), an > unqualified person with a modicum of training can practice AP on, > AND ask a fee from, consenting adults under the Common Law > principle of Caveat Emptor. > > © In most other countries that have formal regulations on the > practice of medicine, and on the minimum qualifications needed to > practice related medical techniques, only professionally qualified > people can practice AP. > > > 2. In the Philippines there are no laws for acupuncture practice > > but it supports Alternative Medicine through legislation. Am I > > free to practice it even with little training (just short course > > training program)? > > I do not know the Laws of the Phillipines. You may need to ask a > professional who lives there. > > > 3. In ancient China most practitioners acquired knowledge > through the teachings of elders, so do you think acupuncture can > be practiced with little knowledge and over time acquire the > necessary skills through experience? Thanks! Eric > > My answer is the same as in (1), above - it depends on the country > and its Laws. > > In Ireland, under Common Law, all degrees of therapeutic expertise > (and none) " in business " . The gamut of " therapeutic services " (in > the broadest sense) runs from commercially-minded health-food > store owners (offering tuina or homeopathic/herbal " consultations " ), > to Seventh-Son-of a Seventh-Son (offering Faith Healing), to saintly > priests (trying to heal by use of Prayer and Relics of a saint), to > untrained " bonesetters " (some of whom are quite brilliant - I have > been treated with immediate success by one of them for dsc- > related excruciating backpain that had lasted for 5 weeks). > > On the other end of the scale, we have highly qualified > professionals in all aspects of therapy, allopathic and holistic. And, > in between, we have younger and older students trying to improve > their skills in their preferred therapeutic modality. > > I suspect that there are not many other countries with such a laid- > back attitude as Ireland has to what consenting adults may do in > the field of therapy! > > But mainstream medicine holds centre-stage and commands the > hghest fees. > > Attilio wrote: > > Hi Eric. The situation in the Phillippines is pretty much the same > > as in the UK. People can set up shop and call themselves Chinese > > doctors with little or no training at all. Thank God, that will > > change in 2005 when regulation comes into effect. Actually, Phil, > > do you know what will happen to the Western 'acupuncturists' in > > the UK who have been on the infamous weekend courses? > > Attilio, I am not sure, but I suspect that the EU mania for licencing > everyone will eventually extend to all therapists within the EU. (I > suspect that we sooon will need a licence to have a leak or go to > bed with our partners!) > > > Anyway, Eric, you really need to have some form of training. > > Reading a book cannot give you everything as often enough clinical > > practice differs alot from textbook cases. Can you 'shadow' a > > Chinese doctor in your area. That would be better... (etc) > > I agree, .Attilio. The more one studies and practices, the more > skilled one becomes, and the more " job-satisfaction " and self- > confidence one gains. As many have said on the lists, the study of > AP or CHM is a lifetime's work. I would say it is the work of several > lifetimes! > > Eric, would YOU like to go for treatment to an amateur with " one > book in his head " , or 30 hours of study, over say 3 weekends, > under her belt? I think not! > > > > Best regards, > > > WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > WWW : > Email: <@e...> > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm > Email: <@e...> > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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