Guest guest Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Greetings Evertt Re your concern about treatment costs I now practice in the lower mainland of British Columbia, Canada, in a geriatric community called White Rock of approx. 35,000. After 4 years of practice I can generate over $100K with herbs and acup, tui na and qigong classes. I follow the Flaws mantra in this endeavour but not exactly the blueprint. Many of my seniors are old single women with limited means but they bake and cook soups for me just because they know that we care for each other. I have been told, as well, by well informed marketing sources and having gotten a marketing diploma myself, and know full well that I charge low and should charge more etc. I start at a base line of $50 for herbs (concentrates for two weeks), acup. and slight extra $20 -$40 intake fees. and will say that because you need lots more I will give you 3 Tx for 125.00 etc. Outservice is higher by $20. You get to know more about people and their abilities to pay if you treat them over time and if you do a good job they will always give you some means and continue to fill your day and continue to send you their friends. Some people I just have to treat for free because I care about getting results for them. The main principle I follow is that business is getting and keeping customers. It is better to keep someone then to try and get someone new. (Although if I feel I can't solve their problem I tell them). I came from an area just north of Minnesota, called Manitoba where I learned this principle of caring in a rural setting. Compassion and co-operation is what makes friends and influences people and all the rest takes care of itsellf (I work from my place and have three tx rooms, so I " m lucky that way). I know that for the most part these geriatrics are going to be with me for the rest of their lives. If you are just giving acup. tr I would suggest you get more types of modalities. Give classes on TCM food, massage or meditation/Qi gong but anything that can take some of the edge off those cold Minnesota winter nights. Write articles and get more expertise so that you can be informative. Now I will let you in to a secret worth it's weight in gold. My main source of advertising is my newsletter. Believe you me that in a rural setting you have an ideal captive audience and they will repeat what you've written to them in a quarterly newsletter about whatever, they will read every word you write to them. And here is the absolute kicker for that newsletter. I give a nicely made up gift certificate for a free diagnosis. This coupon return is so successfull you can hardly believe it. People I treated 3 years ago will come back with that coupon or have given it to a friend. Besides that, I give free treatments to charity organizations etc. because I love this profession and I will promote in talks to Chamber of Commerce, schools, seniors groups, anyone I can practice on and convince of the value and worth of TCM will always pay back in time. > " Everett Churchill " <pinevillage >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >[Chinese Medicine] Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:53:36 >-0700 > >Hello All, > > > >I hope no one (or at least not many of you) minds if I ask the group >something a little more capital-oriented. > > > >I've had the ear of a marketing consultant for the better part of this last >year who is adamant that I charge " X " dollars per treatment. Well and good, >except for the fact that I live in a rural area and she in a metro >environment. That fact aside, many treatment protocols call for very >frequent and multiple treatments, and charging this " X " dollars per >treatment is very prohibitive for many (if not most) of my modest patient >list. If anyone had any really great ideas they'd like to share, feel free >to kindly respond to the group or just to myself. Just FYI, I live in rural >Minnesota, so I'm sure I wouldn't be any serious direct competition for the >vast majority of this list. > > > >Thanx in advance. > > > >Everett Churchill > >pinevillage _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 In Seattle Washington, you may generate US$300,000.00/year.: 75 patients/wk Acupuncture $75 Infrared $15 Tuina $30 consultation $60-150 Medical report $250 Herb mark up 800-1000% for raw herbs 200-300% for patent herbs. With all due respect, I think those high figures are rather high. I understand that it depends upon the type of office you want to run, for starters (given). I charge $60 for ROC ($80 for FOC) and I find that even these rates are challenging for a lot of people to meet financially in this area. Unless you are one of the senior licensees on the all the rosters with the insurance companies, I am hard pressed to see how one could make $300,000/yr in Seattle in this economy. Granted, I am only one year into practice ... but I know few acupuncturist who are making $50-80,000, let alone $300,000. Those that are making good money have been in it for 10 years or more and are processing insurance. Just thought to throw in my two cents. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 In Seattle Washington, you may generate US$300,000.00/year.: 75 patients/wk Acupuncture $75 Infrared $15 Tuina $30 consultation $60-150 Medical report $250 Herb mark up 800-1000% for raw herbs 200-300% for patent herbs. Chinese Medicine , " Rod Le Blanc " <rodleblancdtcm@h...> wrote: > Greetings Evertt > > Re your concern about treatment costs > > I now practice in the lower mainland of British Columbia, Canada, in a > geriatric community called White Rock of approx. 35,000. After 4 years of > practice I can generate over $100K with herbs and acup, tui na and qigong > classes. I follow the Flaws mantra in this endeavour but not exactly the > blueprint. Many of my seniors are old single women with limited means but > they bake and cook soups for me just because they know that we care for each > other. I have been told, as well, by well informed marketing sources and > having gotten a marketing diploma myself, and know full well that I charge > low and should charge more etc. I start at a base line of $50 for herbs > (concentrates for two weeks), acup. and slight extra $20 -$40 intake fees. > and will say that because you need lots more I will give you 3 Tx for 125.00 > etc. Outservice is higher by $20. You get to know more about people and > their abilities to pay if you treat them over time and if you do a good job > they will always give you some means and continue to fill your day and > continue to send you their friends. Some people I just have to treat for > free because I care about getting results for them. The main principle I > follow is that business is getting and keeping customers. It is better to > keep someone then to try and get someone new. (Although if I feel I can't > solve their problem I tell them). > > I came from an area just north of Minnesota, called Manitoba where I learned > this principle of caring in a rural setting. Compassion and co- operation is > what makes friends and influences people and all the rest takes care of > itsellf (I work from my place and have three tx rooms, so I " m lucky that > way). I know that for the most part these geriatrics are going to be with me > for the rest of their lives. If you are just giving acup. tr I would suggest > you get more types of modalities. Give classes on TCM food, massage or > meditation/Qi gong but anything that can take some of the edge off those > cold Minnesota winter nights. Write articles and get more expertise so that > you can be informative. Now I will let you in to a secret worth it's weight > in gold. My main source of advertising is my newsletter. Believe you me that > in a rural setting you have an ideal captive audience and they will repeat > what you've written to them in a quarterly newsletter about whatever, they > will read every word you write to them. And here is the absolute kicker for > that newsletter. I give a nicely made up gift certificate for a free > diagnosis. This coupon return is so successfull you can hardly believe it. > People I treated 3 years ago will come back with that coupon or have given > it to a friend. Besides that, I give free treatments to charity > organizations etc. because I love this profession and I will promote in > talks to Chamber of Commerce, schools, seniors groups, anyone I can practice > on and convince of the value and worth of TCM will always pay back in time. > > > " Everett Churchill " <pinevillage@s...> > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine > >[Chinese Medicine] Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:53:36 > >-0700 > > > >Hello All, > > > > > > > >I hope no one (or at least not many of you) minds if I ask the group > >something a little more capital-oriented. > > > > > > > >I've had the ear of a marketing consultant for the better part of this last > >year who is adamant that I charge " X " dollars per treatment. Well and good, > >except for the fact that I live in a rural area and she in a metro > >environment. That fact aside, many treatment protocols call for very > >frequent and multiple treatments, and charging this " X " dollars per > >treatment is very prohibitive for many (if not most) of my modest patient > >list. If anyone had any really great ideas they'd like to share, feel free > >to kindly respond to the group or just to myself. Just FYI, I live in rural > >Minnesota, so I'm sure I wouldn't be any serious direct competition for the > >vast majority of this list. > > > > > > > >Thanx in advance. > > > > > > > >Everett Churchill > > > >pinevillage@s... > > _______________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 I'm not sure who posted these original figures...but.... what are you calling a medical report? And, are you personally going to China for your herbs? These figures do seem unrealistic, certainly not the norm...incl. seperating out consultation and infrared....?! The only other time I've seen a yearly figure like this was in promo info from a TCM school! Kit At 02:13 AM 7/18/03 -0400, you wrote: > > In Seattle Washington, you may generate US$300,000.00/year.: > > 75 patients/wk > > Acupuncture $75 > Infrared $15 > Tuina $30 > consultation $60-150 > Medical report $250 > Herb mark up 800-1000% for raw herbs 200-300% for patent herbs. With all due respect, I think those high figures are rather high. I understand that it depends upon the type of office you want to run, for starters (given). I charge $60 for ROC ($80 for FOC) and I find that even these rates are challenging for a lot of people to meet financially in this area. Unless you are one of the senior licensees on the all the rosters with the insurance companies, I am hard pressed to see how one could make $300,000/yr in Seattle in this economy. Granted, I am only one year into practice ... but I know few acupuncturist who are making $50-80,000, let alone $300,000. Those that are making good money have been in it for 10 years or more and are processing insurance. Just thought to throw in my two cents. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 In a message dated 7/19/2003 9:20:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alexdn writes: The alternative health community must be careful not to mimic the allopathic community. In what way are you concerned we might mimic the allopaths? I am assuming you don't mean that we turn into uneducated drug pushers who are responsible for so many deaths that we would be listed as the 4th largest killers in the country. Maybe you are referring to the possibility that our treatments would be controlled by insurance companies so the treatments we are allowed to give our determined by a committee that doesn't know our patients or us. Certainty you aren't talking about becoming more interested in the payment on our yacht than the personalized service geared to our patients best interest. If you are suggesting that we not charge for our service what we believe we are worth, then I will have to disagree completely. Money is just money. Those that will pay will, and those that can't, can receive hardship waivers. Why are you seemingly concerned about what others charge? It seems to me you are implying that if we charge more than you might think is fair, that is in some way immoral. That might be a bit of a stretch for you to see, but there are a lot of veiled judgments about money that are masked a spirituality out there. Food for thought. Maybe food for flaming? All the best, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 In a message dated 7/19/03 9:21:04 AM, alexdn writes: The figures I have marked (*) below are the charges in the NYC and New Jersey for private practitioners. In fact, in New Jersey since there are fewer herbalists they charge $60-75 and only give a 5 to 10 day supply of herbs. I realize that everyone needs to make a salary and this area is expensive, but I have gone to NYC and seen an herbalist there who is well known and respected in the alternative health community and he even commented when questioned that he had not raised his charge in 10 years. He charges $35 and that comes with a month supply of herbs and that is also the charge for acupuncture. His practice is on Broadway just off Canal in Chinatown. Yes, he knows that if he were to charge more people would still come and that if he moved his office to midtown he would be able to charge even more. The alternative health community must be careful not to mimic the allopathic community. I think it would be better for us to retain the quality of the treatment and the time spent with a variety of modalities (food, acu, lifestyle, and other OM modalities) with the patient rather than do quickies so we can be cheaper, as is done by folks in many Chinatowns. If folks want cheap, they will find it and get it. We do not have to mimic the Alleopathic or Chiropractic community, but socialism is not my way, either. All one has to do is care about the patient and provide discounted or pro bono treatment to those who cannot afford our services sufficiently to enhance one's karma financially. The question is how do you support YOUR community? Are you a membeer of local and national professional organizations? Do you participate in any local actions, like being on a volunteer position such as a civil service commissioner or smething? I know that locally, there are lots of positions of service in my Borough that go unfilled on zoning or public health just because people do not volunteer any more. This is beyond volunteerng to enhance the advance of your profession by participation and making your views known in a professional organization. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 The figures I have marked (*) below are the charges in the NYC and New Jersey for private practitioners. In fact, in New Jersey since there are fewer herbalists they charge $60-75 and only give a 5 to 10 day supply of herbs. I realize that everyone needs to make a salary and this area is expensive, but I have gone to NYC and seen an herbalist there who is well known and respected in the alternative health community and he even commented when questioned that he had not raised his charge in 10 years. He charges $35 and that comes with a month supply of herbs and that is also the charge for acupuncture. His practice is on Broadway just off Canal in Chinatown. Yes, he knows that if he were to charge more people would still come and that if he moved his office to midtown he would be able to charge even more. The alternative health community must be careful not to mimic the allopathic community. Re: Re: "X" dollars per treatment At 02:13 AM 7/18/03 -0400, you wrote: In Seattle Washington, you may generate US$300,000.00/year.: 75 patients/wk Acupuncture $75 * Infrared $15 Tuina $30 consultation $60-150 * Medical report $250 Herb mark up 800-1000% for raw herbs 200-300% for patent herbs. With all due respect, I think those high figures are rather high. I understand that it depends upon the type of office you want to run, for starters (given). I charge $60 for ROC ($80 for FOC) and I find that even these rates are challenging for a lot of people to meet financially in this area. Unless you are one of the senior licensees on the all the rosters with the insurance companies, I am hard pressed to see how one could make $300,000/yr in Seattle in this economy. Granted, I am only one year into practice ... but I know few acupuncturist who are making $50-80,000, let alone $300,000. Those that are making good money have been in it for 10 years or more and are processing insurance. Just thought to throw in my two cents. Maya -- George DeCarlo (908) 322-4319 www.District21Greens.org NJ Legislative ’03 Election gpnj-union (Union County Greens) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 In a message dated 7/19/2003 6:21:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, alexdn writes: The alternative health community must be careful not to mimic the allopathic community. George, I think that is an excellent point. Thank you for stating it. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 In a message dated 7/19/2003 6:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, Musiclear writes: but there are a lot of veiled judgments about money that are masked a spirituality out there. I agree the above statement is true but that isn't to say that commenting on 300% markups on herbs and such falls automatically into that category. As acupuncturists, we have taken on the great expense of an education and we need to make a living. No problem there. But I feel the point George was making (correct me if I am wrong, George) was that we need to be cautious not to become what so many of us find problematic in the some aspects of the allopathic community .... chasing the buck and only looking at the buck. If you charge what you feel is fair and honest for your services, then the previous statement doesn't apply to you (regardless of how much you charge). I think the key here is consciously gauging one's fees so as to be fair to your patients as well as yourself. Each practitioner needs to sort out what he or she feels is appropriate for themselves. Conscious engagement seems to be the core issue here. I for one hear the cautionary statement, "The alternative health community must be careful not to mimic the allopathic community" as a fair heads-up. be well, Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Ditto...on both posts, Maya! I remember hearing some years ago that 80% of students aiming to become MD's were doing it for the income ....solely?....can't remember... ......the point was certainly majorly for the money. Kit At 01:49 PM 7/19/03 -0400, you wrote: > > In a message dated 7/19/2003 6:48:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Musiclear writes: > > >> >> but there are a lot of veiled judgments about money that are masked a >> spirituality out there. > > > I agree the above statement is true but that isn't to say that commenting on > 300% markups on herbs and such falls automatically into that category. As > acupuncturists, we have taken on the great expense of an education and we > need to make a living. No problem there. But I feel the point George was > making (correct me if I am wrong, George) was that we need to be cautious not > to become what so many of us find problematic in the some aspects of the > allopathic community .... chasing the buck and only looking at the buck. If > you charge what you feel is fair and honest for your services, then the > previous statement doesn't apply to you (regardless of how much you charge). > I think the key here is consciously gauging one's fees so as to be fair to > your patients as well as yourself. Each practitioner needs to sort out what > he or she feels is appropriate for themselves. > > Conscious engagement seems to be the core issue here. I for one hear the > cautionary statement, " The alternative health community must be careful not > to mimic the allopathic community " as a fair heads-up. > > be well, > Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 In a message dated 7/20/2003 9:14:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: In my classes i constantly hear of people promoting (in classes on orthopedics and practice management) and practitioner that charge patients or more often insurance companies upwards of 100-150$ per visit, by stacking up procedures. Seeing patients 3 times a week at these prices. As for "stacking up procedures" when billing insurance companies ... there is more to it than just trying to make "more" money in some cases. It is about trying to get paid what you charge. I have yet to come across an insurance company that actually reimburses the actual rate of the acupuncturist. In most cases, massage therapist receive higher reimbursement fees than acupuncturist. Rather than be paid a percentage of your fees (with the add cost of form preparation etc), it is legal to charge one fee if paid at the time of service and another if not paid at the time of service. In my practice management class it was put to us that clearly marking and charging for all the techniques used on the insurance forms is one way of educating the insurance companies as to what we do (or at the very least, the degree of what we do). Not to mention, if the companies are only going to pay a percentage, I don't blame people for "stacking" a bit so they can actually get paid their fee. It can be done legally and it can also be done ethically. Now whether everyone involved in this practice is engaging it ethically is another issue. But just felt to point out that "stacking" isn't inherently unethical. be well, Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 Maya, Thank you for your comments. I was a bit surprised as to the other remarks from other contributors. For instance, even though there are chiropractors that are doing their profession harm many are concerned about this and are not simply putting people on machines. My chiropractor is an example, as was my uncle before his retirement, of using hands instead of machines to aid in maintaining health. George ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kit, Yes, since the early 80's I have told people to carefully examine the MDs' offices for signs of caring for money only and one of the signs are pictures from their various trips. It is best to stay away from MDs and DOs, for the most part, as much as possible. Recall the study some time ago that examined the effect of striking doctors in San Francisco and Israel when there was a noticeable drop in the death rate during the time of the strike. George PS I would make an exception to my remarks above for some physicians that practice homeopathy and may also be certified in areas of acupuncture and Chinese medicine as mine is. >Kit <kitcurtin >Re: Re: " X " dollars per treatment >Ditto...on both posts, Maya! >I remember hearing some years ago that 80% of students aiming to become MD's were doing it for the income ....solely?....can't remember... ......the point was certainly majorly for the money. >Kit -- George DeCarlo (908) 322-4319 www.District21Greens.org NJ Legislative 03 Election gpnj-union (Union County Greens) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 Hi George, I totally forgot about that strike info....that's a great one to remember!! Yes, there are some good MD's that are really interested in their patients. If I need tests, tho, I go to a nurse practitioner or often one can get them without the racket of having an MD's signature. Even with the alternative minded MD's I've had trouble with the arrogance factor. One had an initial intake requirement of $200 where he proceeds to lecture for an hour without finding out the level of knowledge of the patient. He had no new info! Kit PS. Glad to see your Green ...my Kucinich yard sign is getting picked up tomorrow! > >George >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Kit, > >Yes, since the early 80's I have told people to carefully examine the MDs' offices for signs of caring for money only and one of the signs are pictures from their various trips. It is best to stay away from MDs and DOs, for the most part, as much as possible. Recall the study some time ago that examined the effect of striking doctors in San Francisco and Israel when there was a noticeable drop in the death rate during the time of the strike. > >George > >PS I would make an exception to my remarks above for some physicians that practice homeopathy and may also be certified in areas of acupuncture and Chinese medicine as mine is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 One had an initial intake requirement of $200 where he proceeds to lecture for an hour without finding out the level of knowledge of the patient. >>>Taking one hour per patient for $200 is certainly not showing money to be of a primary concern. Here in CA many LAc charge much more than this per hour, often seeing 4-6 patients per hour charging 60-$90 per patients plus herbs. In my classes i constantly hear of people promoting (in classes on orthopedics and practice management) and practitioner that charge patients or more often insurance companies upwards of 100-150$ per visit, by stacking up procedures. Seeing patients 3 times a week at these prices. I do not think we can say that as a profession we are different than any of the other professions, there are greedy people everywhere. Was Miriam Lee greedy for seeing as much as 100 patients per day? She certainly was an extremely caring and giving practitioner and teacher. She lived a modest life. Donated money to causes, but still decided to see that many patients and charge them often for daily treatments. She definitely used the money more for good causes than for her self. Was this ethical? alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 In a message dated 7/20/2003 2:41:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, kitcurtin writes: I never understand why practitioners don't give the patient a receipt and let them deal with the insurance company. Is there a feeling that it will drive away business? Many chiropractors operate in this way. Kit I hear you, Kit. That is what I do. I offer a superbill complete with CPT and ICD-9 codes and am a cash based biz at this point. Only problem with that is, not everyone is able to work with me as a result. Many with insurance want to maximize their benefits (i.e., they go with roster acupuncturists even if they don't prefer them so they get optimal coverage). They often don't feel they can pay up front while continuing a course of treatment (ex: once a week for, say, a month and having to wait a month for the money to come back from the insurance co.). Thankfully, some do not find this to be a hurdle. It definitely facilitates a start up business to process insurance as you have "free" advertising on the rosters and patients know what kind of coverage they will get by reading their policies. I offer some support to my patients if the insurance company is problematic. I recently troubleshot a reimbursement problem for a patient to a fortunate end. Basically, I will make a phone call or two ... seems fair. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 In a message dated 7/20/2003 4:41:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: In most cases, massage therapist receive higher reimbursement fees than acupuncturist. >>>>i do not know what you are talking about. Depending on insurance, PI pays 100%, WC pays upwards of 120$ when you stack etc. You can not do it a massage therapist. But just felt to point out that "stacking" isn't inherently unethical. >>>>>I agree, except i hear all the time how people charge for things they do not really do. Alon Hi Alon, Well, it may be a case of which state you live in. I used to process insurance in a hospital in CA and now live in WA. I have noted differences in coverage and what is legally backed etc. All I can say is that my statements were based upon knowing a fair amount of acupuncturist who process insurance in the Seattle area and hearing their reimbursement rates and working with massage therapists and hearing their reimbursement rates. From my exposure, acupuncturist do not get a fair shake in comparison if they don't stack the bill. That was the main point I was making. As for people charging for things they don't do ... of course, that is unethical. No argument there, my friend. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 I do think that $200 for info that I already had was excessive. If I had been info'd in advance that I was to receive a lecture and given the choice of topic....I would have foregone the expense. Basically, he is charging to give info with the sting at the end of recommending purchase of his supplements. I did not, of course. Believe me, he was in it for the $$$$. I do not feel that I should be paying for someone's sales pitch. He received no intake (should have left that word out in original e-mail) info from me...I received no treatment. Kit PS. Even w/treatment $200/hr. is excessive, here. Esp. for out of pocket. Which also brings up the ethics of charging excessively because it is insurance company money (even taking into account the paperwork). At 11:00 AM 7/20/03 -0500, you wrote: > > One had an initial intake requirement > of $200 where he proceeds to lecture for an hour without > finding out the level of knowledge of the patient. > > >>>Taking one hour per patient for $200 is certainly not showing money to be > of a primary concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 Hi Maya, I never understand why practitioners don't give the patient a receipt and let them deal with the insurance company. Is there a feeling that it will drive away business? Many chiropractors operate in this way. Kit > > . there is more to it than just trying to make " more " money in some cases. > It is about trying to get paid what you charge. I have yet to come across > an insurance company that actually reimburses the actual rate of the > acupuncturist. In most cases, massage therapist receive higher reimbursement > fees than acupuncturist. Rather than be paid a percentage of your fees (with > the add cost of form preparation etc), it is legal to charge one fee if paid > at the time of service and another if not paid at the time of service. > > > be well, > Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 Basically, he is charging to give info with the sting at the end of recommending purchase of his supplements. >>>That sound bad. What does he presents himself as? alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 In most cases, massage therapist receive higher reimbursement fees than acupuncturist. >>>>i do not know what you are talking about. Depending on insurance, PI pays 100%, WC pays upwards of 120$ when you stack etc. You can not do it a massage therapist. But just felt to point out that "stacking" isn't inherently unethical. >>>>>I agree, except i hear all the time how people charge for things they do not really do. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 He is an MD ...who went alternative...as in gave up his license to dispense drugs. The unfortunate part is that he isn't honest in how he represents himself. The geatest feeling I had when I left the office was deceived....and sort of like a 'non-entity' if you get me. Like he just had this schpiel (sp?) and I had gone thru the 'revolving door'....he didn't even see a person in front of him. At least, that is my opinion...a fellow student (who BTW is normally very calm) gets all agitated when his name comes up! ;-) I don't know how the MD's 'business' is doing these days. Kit At 06:14 PM 7/20/03 -0500, you wrote: > > Basically, he is charging to give info with the > sting at the end of recommending purchase of his supplements. > >>>That sound bad. What does he presents himself as? > alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 In a message dated 7/20/2003 7:44:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: >>>It worries me because we will get the same reputation as Chiros and it will spell trouble in the future. Alon I understand your feelings completely. There are many things I see other acupuncturists doing that cause me concern for the future reputation of our medicine. Seems the only thing we can really do is work with integrity, be a positive influence where we can and remain willing to reexamine out own intentions and actions from time to time. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 Hi Maya, Gotcha.... Whew...that is one thing I am not looking forward to, once practicing...but I see your point. Start-ups/upstarts ;-) have to do all we can to maximize our clientele. Until we can sail on the strength of the medicine. ;-D Kit At 08:31 PM 7/20/03 -0400, you wrote: > > In a message dated 7/20/2003 2:41:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, > kitcurtin writes: > > >> >> I never understand why practitioners don't give the patient a receipt and >> let them deal with the insurance company. Is there a feeling that it >> will drive away business? Many chiropractors operate in this way. Kit > > > > I hear you, Kit. That is what I do. I offer a superbill complete with CPT > and ICD-9 codes and am a cash based biz at this point. Only problem with > that is, not everyone is able to work with me as a result. Many with > insurance want to maximize their benefits (i.e., they go with roster > acupuncturists even if they don't prefer them so they get optimal coverage). > They often don't feel they can pay up front while continuing a course of > treatment (ex: once a week for, say, a month and having to wait a month for > the money to come back from the insurance co.). Thankfully, some do not find > this to be a hurdle. It definitely facilitates a start up business to > process insurance as you have " free " advertising on the rosters and patients > know what kind of coverage they will get by reading their policies. > > I offer some support to my patients if the insurance company is problematic. > I recently troubleshot a reimbursement problem for a patient to a fortunate > end. Basically, I will make a phone call or two ... seems fair. > > Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 As for people charging for things they don't do ... of course, that is unethical. No argument there, my friend. >>>It worries me because we will get the same reputation as Chiros and it will spell trouble in the future. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2003 Report Share Posted July 22, 2003 In a message dated 7/20/2003 9:55:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, YinTangSong writes: In my practice management class it was put to us that clearly marking and charging for all the techniques used on the insurance forms is one way of educating the insurance companies as to what we do (or at the very least, the degree of what we do). Not to mention, if the companies are only going to pay a percentage, I don't blame people for "stacking" a bit so they can actually get paid their fee. It can be done legally and it can also be done ethically. I'm assuming you're using the term "stacking" to refer to the practice of billing multiple individual charges for things like office visit, acupuncture, moxa, tuina, TDP lamp tx, herbal consultation, etc to maximize billing for insurance. My question is: Do you bill your cash paying patients the same as your insured patients? My concern is, stacking for insured, but not for cash smells like insurance fraud. I agree that offering a day of service payment discount is a reasonable way to charge insured patients slightly more, but keep prices affordable for out of pocket payers. My day of service payment discount is $15. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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