Western Herbs

[Guest guest]

I have read with interest the opinions expressed about the Western Herbs. A

couple of additional thought. Holmes documents that Western herbs have there

own systematization behind them based both on body humors and astrology,

whcih by the way is a very complex systematization of human and herbal

qualitites. We also have the experience of a lot o folks who are presently

using western herbs. It is, as Todd said, not something that can be created

by theory but from experience and while there are no one for one

correspondences, there are overlaps between the older european system and

TCM.

I, for one, as I stated earlier, would like to study these herbs from a TCM

point of view knowing that, at this point, they are likely to be used by

symptomology rather than by some form of formal Yin-Yang perspective.

I also agree with that many formulas are centuries old and are still

being used because they are proven to work effectively. There may be a

comparable Xaio Yao Wan of Western herbs, but I do not know what may

encompass it. Also, we need to kep the principle in mind, that it is the

formula - not merely the individual herbs - that are used to treat people.

Western herbs still seem, on the whole, to be used individually at a time to

perform functions (just look at the ads on TV for confirmation of this).

I look forward with interest to what Thomas proposes, since I have also ben

intersted in herbs, and since studying TCM, have wanted a way to begin to use

Western herbs more precisely.

Jim

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

Well, it is no surprise that this subject has brought forth a few opinions,

and I'm glad to see them all. I will try to address as many of your concerns

as I can in this post, if I miss anything or if this brings up more

concerns/opinions please put them forth.

I'll start with Todd's post:

It is true that it is not TCM's position that herbs that grow closer/locally

are better, neither is this my view. If this were my view then I would only

be discussing plants from the Western US. In fact the plants that I have

included in my work come from around the globe, mostly the Americas and

Europe but also the South Pacific (Kava) and other locals. Based on TCM's

using herbs from surrounding areas, assumingly looking for herbs that better

suit specific purposes, it stands to reason that we should include Western

herbs as there are times when they are simply better for a specific problem

than its TCM counterpart. This is not to say that I am looking for herbs

that can be used in place for herbs such as Chai Hu, this would be faulty in

principle. There is by the was another bupleurum that is nearly identical in

chemistry that grows in the western us and Canada.

I agree with Todd that it is the formula not the individual herb that is the

main focus of TCM. Let us not forget the formulas are made up of individual

herbs that work in concert together to make up the formula, these formula

are modified with other herbs or by increasing or decreasing dosages or the

herbs in the formula or by simply omitting a particular herb from the

formula. This is the main place that I use Western herbs, to modify

established TCM formulas. In order to do this though, we must first

understand the individual herb as it stands by itself. One of the benefits

of the way that Western herbs are used (as simples) it is no mystery how

they work by themselves.

There are, in clinical Western herbalism, mostly formulas used. There aren't

to many simplers out there working clinically. As you mentioned, Zhu Dan-xi

did promote the use of knowing well few herbs/formulas well and adapting

them to fit the patient picture. My teacher used to say that as he got

further on in years he found he used fewer and fewer herbs and formulas. It

is my belief that simplers are extremely advanced herbalists (if they're any

good) and Zhu Dan-xi would be very impressed by these folks.

My work comes from studying with Michael Tierra for over five years both in

the classroom and in the clinic, from study of Western herbs from a purely

Western herbalists point of view, from studying TCM and from my own personal

experience. There is also the influence of those who have been willing to

read the work and comment on it according to their experience. In over five

years of practice I would estimate that 80-85% of my patients have gotten a

mixture of TCM and Western herbs, the other 15-20% of patients has gotten

either a strict TCM formula or a Western formula that I felt best fit their

clinical picture. While some of my work is speculative I would estimate that

approximately 90% of it is experiential, speculation is inevitable in this

type of work.

Finally, I need to state, as stated in the forthcoming book, that what I put

forth is not the be-all/end-all of this work. I'm sure that I will revise it

and I'm sure that in time others will write there own opinions on this

material. I see that the work that has been done is very superficial and not

very useful clinically. I saw the need to turn my notes and ideas into

something that could be used by TCM practitioners around the world. It is my

goal that this work will be used as I jumping off point for others to

explore this exciting part of modern TCM.

 

Looking forward to continuing this conversation,

thomas

P.S. I will send my resume and a syllabus as soon as I get a chance to

update each of them (in the next couple of days).

 

 

 

> TLuger ()

>

> Since it always has to start somewhere, I support the enterprise of

> integrating western herbs into chinese materia medica, however several

> things come to mind

>

> 1. It is certainly NOT the position of TCM that herbs grown locally are

> better. The chinese materia medica includes herbs grown all over asia.

> myrrh comes from the arab lands originally, for example.

>

> 2. chinese medicine is about formulae as much as it is about single

> herbs, if not moreso. I can't see any way of replacing the known

> complex effects of chinese formulae without either massive studies or

> centuries of experience.

>

> And even then, formulae from the SHL and jin gui would still be used

> despite any " advances " . These formulae remain popular in china despite

> centuries of attempting to improve upon them.

>

> No individual has the authority to make any proclamations aout herb

> properties, but everyone has a right to their thoughts on the matter.

> It is clear, as craig states, there is no unanimity on this subject even

> for the chinese herbs like ginseng (is it heat clearing or warming?).

>

> It seems from my limited reading of classics that the properties of

> herbs were understood first pragmatically, then theoretically. No one

> sat down and just assigned qualities to herbs based upon any preordained

> scheme until the sung period and this work was extremely contrived

> stuff.

>

> So I support the enterprise, but with the caveat that it comes from

> experience, not speculation. While holmes, frawley, flaws, julian

> scott, subhuti dharmananda and of course tierra have provided much

> valuable consideration to these issues, they are in frequent

> disagreement with each other and I believe the majority of their work is

> speculative, not expereience based.

>

> > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

here here!!!!!!!!!

 

> rowdy

>

>

> To All:

>

> I am surprised. Certainly sharing information and experience does not

nullify

> several thousand years of empirical research. It adds to it.Save

infallability

> for the Yellow Emperor! I would also like to point out that the history of

Western Herbs

> is quite rich and also several thousand years old-albeit with some drastic

interuptions

> in transmission. There is much written(empirical) info from the western

classical age about the

> western pharmacy-it needs to be reinterpreted from the standpoint of

TCM.Lastly,

> there are many " primitive " people around the planet who heal themselves

ENTIRELY

> by the use of local herbs...I do not advocate an ideologocal position on

this-

> just a thought that there is a pharmacy growing all around us that is

> particularly suited to our microenvironment and illnesses.I am encouraged

and

> grateful for those TCM practitioners who are making a start at this

important work.

> I don't expect them to COMPETE with thousands of years of chinese herbal

history-

> I expect they will ADD to it!!!

>

> Roddey Cohn

>

> > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

, David Leonard <drkitsch@m...>

wrote:

 

>

> I wasn't here 15 months ago, so I don't know what happened, but i'm just

curious... Do you feel this isn't the right forum for discussing the uses of

Western herbs in our practice, or is it the flaming that concerns you?

 

David,

 

After some discussion with folks who were here for the brouhaha, I have

decided that the problem was related to an individual (who is no longer

on the list) and NOt the topic, per se. In addition, the law in

California and some other states allows us to prescribe western herbs.

Oregon Law technically restricts px to " oriental pharmacopiae " . since

I was living in Oregon at the time and because Oregon licenses

Naturopathic Physicians to medically presacribe western herbs, it

seemed better to sidestep this topic.

 

However, if many TCMers are using western herbs, it actually makes more

sense to have this discussion here. The hallmark of TCM is its

methodology, not is techniques or medicinal substances. In addition,

many foregin medicinals have been incorporated into TCM materia medica

over the millennia (myrrh/mo yao and frankincense/ru xiang come to

mind). And as stated earlier, many folks rely on the proclamations of

individuals rather than a broad professional consensus, which I thinkis

shortsighted, even dangerous at times.

 

With that in mind, I want to set some guidelines. What I absolutely DO

NOT want to see is people replying to case studies with health food

store advice like giving echinacea for a cold or saw palmetto for

prostatitis. I want all such submissions to consider the use of these

substances to treat patterns in a professional TCM context. In

addition, I do not want to see people just quoting Tierra and Holmes.

These are fine to use as starting points, but submissions should

include one's clinical experience with the substances or scholarly

critiques of the positions espoused by these folks.

 

Finally, I think this topic should begin with a debate about the

methodology for describing western herbs according to TCM. To merely

equate certain TCM categories with western ones is very flawed as Peter

Borten stated. Even more flawed is to make assumptions about different

species within the same genus. One only has to consider the

differences between angelica sinensis/dang gui and angelica dahurica/

bai zhi to see how specious this approach is. Since TCM herbology

began as an empirical science, upon which theory was aplied at a much

later date, it would seem that the best approach for western herbs

would follow this model.

 

Thus, one starts with indications and diseases known to be treated with

said substances and then uses TCM theory to basically " diagnose " the

herb. If one has enough indications to work with, then one can

basically discern the answers to the TCM ten questions and identify

phlegm or liver qi, etc. In addition, eclectic materia medica often

includes pulse and tongue indications. as noted in an earlier post

this week, much of the modern homeopathic materia medica was actually

never " proved " but actually borrowed from the eclectics and

physiomedicalists. thus many homeopathics are indicated not for the

opposite of what they do in material doses, but for the same thing.

thus materia medicas like Boericke may also provide detailed signs/sx

and pulse and tongue for remedies like echinacea, goldenseal,oregon

graperoot, etc. Modern research on the effectiveness of herbs in

certain diseases may also provide important clues. We ned to be

careful about giving too much weight to idiosyncratic information that

only appears in one source, though. for instance, culpepper, wood and

grieve ball include indications one will find nowhere else in english.

unless one has extensive experience using these substances for such

indications, we should be circumspect about their inclusion.

 

finally,I need to express my own bias on this subject. Like many of

you I studied western herbs extensively before studying TCM. I studied

with folks like David Winston, Cascade Anderson-Geller, Ed Smith and

David Hoffman. I also worked for Eclectic Institute and worked with a

naturopath who specialized in eclectic style herbalism (which is very

rare these days). I owned a healthfood store for two years and thus

became familiar with all the latest popular products and all the

bonafide research about these. I have no doubt that western herbs and

indeed any ingested substance can be understood according to TCM.

However, I completely reject the idea that it is better to use local

herbs than foreign ones. There is no reasonable scientific basis for

this position. It is also foreign to TCM, which has long made use of

medicinals from all over asia. The classical TCM materia medica

includes plants from all different climates and they are applied based

on their observed properties, not their province of origin. While folk

medicine relied on local herbs, that was more a function of economics

than efficacy. the professional medicine has always made use of

" imported " substances which have been available for thousands of years

due to the extensive trade routes of the ancient chinese.

 

It is also worth noting that the continual incorporation of foreign

materia medica into TCM has done absolutely nothing to displace the

central position occupied by indigenous chinese herbs and classical

formulas in clinical practice. Just because one can describe the

energetics of an individual herb is a far cry from being able to make

claims about how it will work in a complex formula for any given

pattern. The chinese have used foreign medicinals to enhance or modify

classical formulae, but rarely if ever to replace them. I think it

would be misguided and even foolhardy to think we can succeed in this

latter endeavor. I also think it is unethical to experiment on

patients with " new ideas " when we have well established " old ideas "

that are working just fine.

>

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

Do you create herb formulas with the western herbs?

 

That was what came to mind first in terms of the trade-off...

even if you can put western herbs in CM terms- and there are

two books by Holmes called the Energetics of Western Herbs that

have done this too - wouldn't formulas be trial and error- that is

if there truly is synergy and antagonism, etc. as in Chinese herbal formula

design.

 

B

 

 

 

Brian Benjamin Carter, M.Sci., L.Ac.

http://www.pulsemed.org/briancarterbio.htm

Acupuncturist & Herbalist

Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine

Columnist, Acupuncture Today

(619) 208-1432 San Diego

(866) 206-9069 x 5284 Tollfree Voicemail

 

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