san qi

[Guest guest]

 

 

Interesting question. As far as I know, all the meds that end in shen1

(Ren Shen, Dang Shen, Dan Shen, Ku Shen, etc.) are traditionally

believed to have some longevity-promoting ability, even Ku Shen (Radix

Sophorae Flavescentis) which is seen as a kind of supplement in older

texts. I seem to remember that there is/was a group of the five shen1

corresponding to the five phases. If I remember correctly, Ku Shen

corresponded to the kidneys. I think I remember seeing a Chinese

article not too long ago attempting to resurrect or repopularize this

idea.

 

As you know, the word shen1 is not part of the standard contemporary

name of tian qi/san qi (Radix Pseudoginseng, a.k.a. Radix

Notoginseng). However, Hong-yen Hsu, in Chinese Materia Medica: A

Concise Guide, says that an alternate name for this med is Shen San

Qi, in which case the shen1 is the shen1 of Ren Shen. Interestingly,

Hsu places San Qi among the supplements as an addendum to Ren Shen

(page. 530), not among the blood-rectifying meds as in B & G. When I

was a student in China, I saw many elderly patients who were taking

San Qi daily as a supplementing, longevity-enhancing medicinal. One of

my teachers said that this was a common practice, and she said nothing

that suggested she thought the idea strange or wrong. I remember

having a long conversation about all this way back in 1982 at the Long

Hua Hospital.

 

Bob

 

, <@i...> wrote:

> Did the chinese traditionally consider there to be any relationship

> between san qi and ren shen? They are both members of the panax

genus,

> but have quite different functions. San qi is either called

> pseudoginseng or notoginseng or tienchi ginseng and is marketed in

some

> venues as a type of ginseng. I am just wondering if this idea is

new.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

....

> Hsu places San Qi among the supplements as an addendum to Ren Shen

> (page. 530), not among the blood-rectifying meds as in B & G. When

I

> was a student in China, I saw many elderly patients who were taking

> San Qi daily as a supplementing, longevity-enhancing medicinal. One

of

> my teachers said that this was a common practice, and she said

nothing

> that suggested she thought the idea strange or wrong. I remember

> having a long conversation about all this way back in 1982 at the

Long

> Hua Hospital.

>

I've had many such conversations. San1 qi1 is

a very commonly used supplement, da4 bu3.

It's given to post-partum women in the form of

chicken soup, which is typically prepared without

the bones. Older people in China who use traditional

medicines also prize san1 qi1 and in days gone

by it was a very costly herb. It's far more

available and affordable now.

 

My wife's grandmother in Chong Qing gives

us a bag of san1 qi1 every time we see

her. And I've always understood it to

be an expression of affection and confidence

in this herb that she herself takes every day.

At 87 she considers herself living proof

of its efficacy as a supplement and likes

little more than extolling its virtues.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

They drank San Qi in Kunming as a replacement for ren shen since there

was a more local tradition of drinking it instead of ren shen. Thassal

I know, though.

 

wrote:

>

> Did the chinese traditionally consider there to be any relationship between

san qi and ren shen? They are both members of the panax genus, but have quite

different functions. San qi is either called pseudoginseng or notoginseng or

tienchi ginseng and is marketed in some venues as a type of ginseng. I am just

wondering if this idea is new.

>

 

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

wrote:

 

> At 87 she considers herself living proof

> of its efficacy as a supplement and likes

> little more than extolling its virtues.

>

 

 

I wonder if this proves it to be a supplement or rather that it

enhances old age by moving blood, given that blood stasis is

considered a major factor in modern TCM geriatrics.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

Good point. I thought about that and was going to post something on

it. However, I failed to find any formulas on Yan De-Xin's book,

" Aging and Blood Stasis " , by Blue Poppy, that contained san qi on it

so I held back.

 

~Fernando

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

 

> I wonder if this proves it to be a supplement or rather that it

> enhances old age by moving blood, given that blood stasis is

> considered a major factor in modern TCM geriatrics.

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

>

>

> Good point. I thought about that and was going to post

something on

> it. However, I failed to find any formulas on Yan De-Xin's book,

> " Aging and Blood Stasis " , by Blue Poppy, that contained san qi

on it

> so I held back.

 

Love that book!! also i guess it is relevant that the alternate

name for san qi, tian qi has that celestial reference

 

[Guest guest]

Tood,

 

San Qi does actually have supplementing functions from a strictly

technical CM point of view. Hong-yen Hsu categorizes it as a qi

supplement.

 

Which of San Qi's functions are predominant depends on whether the med

is used processed (pao zhi) or not. For instance, there are two

related ready-made medicines sold in Chinese apothecaries. Uncooked

(sheng) San Qi is for quickening the blood and stopping bleeding,

while " steamed " San Qi is for nourishing the blood when it is cooked

with chicken.

 

Bob

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...>

> wrote:

>

> > At 87 she considers herself living proof

> > of its efficacy as a supplement and likes

> > little more than extolling its virtues.

> >

>

>

> I wonder if this proves it to be a supplement or rather that it

> enhances old age by moving blood, given that blood stasis is

> considered a major factor in modern TCM geriatrics.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Fernando, and Everyone,

>

> Good point. I thought about that and was going to post something on

> it. However, I failed to find any formulas on Yan De-Xin's book,

> " Aging and Blood Stasis " , by Blue Poppy, that contained san qi on

it

> so I held back.

>

> ~Fernando

>

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

>

> > I wonder if this proves it to be a supplement or rather that it

> > enhances old age by moving blood, given that blood stasis is

> > considered a major factor in modern TCM geriatrics.

> >

 

The word bu3 ²¹ (for those who can see

the character) is another one of those

commonly misunderstood words. I think

the tendency to misunderstand it comes

from an unfortunate equation of bu3 and

the English word " tonic, " which resulted

in the birth of a new verb in English

language Chinese medicine, " tonify. "

 

Since you don't find the word " tonify "

in English dictionaries, it's not really

possible to say what it means. It's another

" eveybody knows " kind of formulation that

suffers mainly from the fact that everybody

does not know what the Chinese term means.

 

Nowadays even when people use the definition

of bu3 provided in the Practical Dictionary,

what I see frequently taking place is the

substitution of " supplement " for " tonify "

in terms of how folks understand this term.

 

The Chinese words means:

 

1) mend; patch; repair

2) fill; supply; make up for

3) nourish

4) benefit; use; help

 

It's a general term, one of the eight methods

of treatment. And contrary to the widespread

understanding, all medicinals that are categorized

as bu3 do not necessarily act as tonics. The

Chinese and the English here do not match

up completely. It's the same general type

of misfit as qi4 and energy.

 

The question you're trying to answer is

a problem introduced by the earlier weakness

in rendering what the Chinese terms mean in

English and the arbitrary equation that has

become a defacto translation standard, as

mentioned above.

 

As Nigel and Feng Ye point out in the

Practical Dictionary, the term is often

used with respect to qi4. And this of

course, brings into question the understanding

not just of this term but the phrase

bu3 qu4 ²¹Æø.

 

What does it mean to bu3 qi4?

 

When applied to blood, I think we have

to consider that a medicinal such as

tian1 qi1 (I say that advisedly because

in fact it is somewhat unique) that

is known to bu3 both qi4 and blood

apparently acts in part by invigorating

the circulation of the blood, i.e.

moving blood.

 

The notion of moving blood and bu3

blood here are in no way contradictory

or in any relationship that suggests

a conflict of meaning. In those patients,

especially the elderly, in whom the

blood is not circulating vigorously,

it is definitely a repair and hence

a supplementation (bu3) to administer

san1 qi1.

 

When I say that this herb is somewhat

unique, I'm thinking of conversations

I've had with doctors in China who

consider that it has the quality not

simply of invigorating but more

broadly of regulating and harmonizing

the blood. It is used as well in instances

of internal bleeding, and externally it

is one of the great herbs for controlling

bleeding.

 

It's a truly great herb, but the true

greatness in its use lies in knowing

when to use it. This always comes down

to a detailed understanding of both

the herb and the patient in front of you.

 

And the understanding of the herb should

include a clear understanding of the

Chinese terms used to classify and describe

its character and use.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

i guess it is relevant that the alternate

> name for san qi, tian qi has that celestial reference

>

 

 

The tian of tian qi is not tian1, heaven, but tian2, field, the same

tian in dan tian, cinnabar field. So I'm not so sure there is a

" celestial " reference.

 

BTW, Henry C. Lu, in Legendary Chinese Healing Herbs, says that the

same san qi (three seven) comes from a story about two brothers who

used this root to treat nosebleed. According to the older brother, the

root has to be between 3 and 7 years old in order to have its

medicinal functions. Unfortunately, Dr. Lu does not explain the names

tian qi or tian san qi. My assumption is that tian qi is a contraction

for tian san qi. In that case, perhaps the root needs to be in the

field for 3-7 years. Just speculating.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob, and All,

 

Here's a quote from Zhong1 Yao4 Zhi4

A Compendium of s

People's Medical Publishing House

Second edition, 1993

 

" Li Shi Zhen said, <<[some say] there are three

leaves on the left and four on the right, so

it's called 'three' 'seven'. I'm afraid it's

not so. Some people say it's original name is

" mountain lacquer " because this names its

function, i.e., that it can heal external

injuries just like lacquer can seal objects.

This saying is closer [to the truth]. Another

name is 'won't exchange for gold' which

describes its value.>> "

 

One note of explanation: in Chinese " three

seven " sounds a lot like " mountain lacquer " .

So what he's suggesting in this quote is

that the name is a kind of confusion, which

helps to explain why there are so many

explanations.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <

pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

> The tian of tian qi is not tian1, heaven, but tian2, field, the same

> tian in dan tian, cinnabar field. So I'm not so sure there is a

> " celestial " reference.

 

ooops. should have checked first. is this a taoist reference?

 

[Guest guest]

(San qi and Ren shen) are both members of the panax genus, but have quite

different functions.

 

Two points: One is that San qi has a much higher naturally occurring

ginsenoside content (more than double), although the proportion of the

different ginsenosides is not the same as Ren shen. Secondly, I was told

that the stop bleeding effect is much more pronounced after being processed

in the liver rather than being applied topically. If this is true I would

speculate that there is either a secondary metabolite that has an effect on

bleeding time or a therapeutic effect of san qi on the liver that is

responsible for the benefit.

 

Stephen Morrissey

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " stephen " <stephen@b...>

wrote:

Secondly, I was told

> that the stop bleeding effect is much more pronounced after

being processed

> in the liver rather than being applied topically. If this is true I

would

> speculate that there is either a secondary metabolite that has

an effect on

> bleeding time or a therapeutic effect of san qi on the liver that

is

> responsible for the benefit.

 

and it doesn't stop bleeding if the portal vein is ligated.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

While blood stasis is a big part of the TCM motivation for use in

geriatrics by dilating the coronary vessels and improving coronary

collateral circulation, San qi reduces the oxygen consumption of the

heart tissue by indirectly reducing the myocardial metabolic rate.

It also can produce a 95% improvement in symptoms and 83%

improvement in the ECG pattern. It is said to have a remarkable anti-

arrhythmic action on experimental rats with coronary branch

ligation. It reduces the size of myocardial infaarction and prevents

the atrial fibrillation.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> I wonder if this proves it to be a supplement or rather that it

> enhances old age by moving blood, given that blood stasis is

> considered a major factor in modern TCM geriatrics.

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

Thanks for the data on san1 qi1.

Can you provide citations? I'd

like to look at the data more

closely.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

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, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Jim,

>

> Thanks for the data on san1 qi1.

> Can you provide citations? I'd

> like to look at the data more

> closely.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jim.

I'll check it out.

 

Ken

 

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

> The Pharmacology of Chinese Herbs, Second Edition

> by Kee C Huang (University of Louisville, Louisville, Kentucky,

USA)

[Guest guest]

Hi, all. My understanding of the apparent paradox

about the uses/functions of san qi is that it is used

to stop bleeding primarily when the bleeding is caused

by an excess (like blood stasis). It acts by breaking

up the stasis so that normal blood flow may be

returned.

 

One example of this is with varicose or spider veins.

In addition to treating the spleen to improve its

" holding " function of blood, san qi acts to break the

small areas of stasis so that blood will begin flowing

properly.

 

I'm interested in any comments on this, as I'm pulling

this from memory.

 

Sage

 

=====

Sage

 

May the Great Spirit grant you peace of mind.

May peace be there in all the things you find.

May peace be there in all you leave behind.

 

 

 

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