Paradox of Haemostat & Move Xue Herbs?

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

said:

> I wonder if reducing Chinese medicine's understanding of 'stop

> bleeding' and 'moving blood' SHOULD be completely reduced to just

> blood thinning or clotting.

 

Brian Carter said:

> I don't think we can completely reduce those CM treatment

> principles/actions to those WM actions- as with most things, there

> is probably a Venn diagram.

 

Notes from my files on Sanqi are below. They say that it is both a

Haemostat AND a Move Xue Herb. It is used in clinically

haemorrhage AND in Xue Stasis.

 

I would appreciate it if CHM experts would discuss the apparent

paradox whereby an herb may be a Haemostat AND a Move Xue

Herb at the same time, and also discuss the risk of inducing

haemorrhage or blood clots if used inappropriately in patients

predisposed to those disorders.

 

Best regards,

Phil

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Herb Pinyin Name & Chinese Characters: Sanqi ÈýÆß; Sanqifen

ÈýÆß·Û; Tianqifen ÌìÆß·Û; Tianqisan ÌìÆßÈý; Tiansanqifen

ÌìÈýÆß·Û; Renshensanqi È˲ÎÈýÆß;

 

Pharma Name: Rx Notoginseng Rx Pseudoginseng

 

Latin Name: Panacis Notoginseng Rx Panacis

Notoginseng/Pseudoginseng Rx

 

Common Name: Notoginseng/Pseudoginseng Rx, Sanchi

 

Herb Class: Haemostat~Move Xue Stasis

 

TCM Actions: (1) Haemostat*~Astringe; esp in bleeding in Xue

Stasis, trauma & wounds; Move Xue Stasis; Anticoagulant;

Antithrombus; Antipain; (2) Vulnerary*; Regenerate Tissue*;

Reduce Swelling; Antipain; Ext: wound~haemorrhage-heals wo

leaving clots & scars; NB: haemorrhage-serious; (3) Other:

Antiinflammatory; Free Radical Scavenger; Antiageing; Boost

Metabolism; Antiradiation (Boost Radiation Tolerance);

Immunostimulant; Anticancer; Antifungal; Antiviral; Antishock;

Antistress (Boost Stress Tolerance); LV-Protector; Move Stasis;

Nourish HT (low dose Vasoconstrictor & high dose Vasodilator); HT-

Protector in HT~CHD, angina pectoris; HT Muscle~Antiischaemic;

HT~Antiarrythmic; Hypotensor; Move HT Xue (Boost HT Blood

Flow);

 

Has: Flavonoid glycoside: Boost HT Xue Flow; Reduce HT muscle

oxygen consumption & Hypotensor;

 

Nature: Sweet; Bitter~Slightly; Warm

 

Channels: LV, ST, LI

 

Dose: As Powder: 2-5g uid/bid. As Soup: w other Hbs: 3g/d; As

powder/pills: 3-9g/d; Topical: styptic* when to traumatic wounds;

heals wo leaving clots & scars; Topically: qs

 

TCM Uses: (1) Xue Stasis* & trauma*/wounds* w haemorrhage esp

w Xue Stasis; Xue Stasis & trauma w haemorrhage; epistaxis;

haemoptysis; haematemesis, metrorrhagia, haematuria &

haemafecia w dark petechiae, localized pain, tongue colour dull w

petechiae etc; Haemorrhage~best Hb for serious haemorrhage

(safe in large doses); traumatic haemorrhage; (2) Xue Stasis &

trauma/wounds w swelling & pain, haematoma, ecchymoma;

Carbuncles, swelling & other skin & External Diseases; snake-bite;

HT~CHD, angina pectoris; thrombosis; circulation~sluggish; pain;

amenorrhoea, menalgia; (3) Hyperlipemia, LV~hepatitis~chronic

infectious etc; inflammation;

 

Western Uses: See TCM uses

 

CI/Caution: pregnancy; Uterus~Tonic at high dose; safe at

moderate use; In Yin Xu w mouth~dry in haemorrhage, use w Hbs

that Build Yin & Clear Xue Heat

 

Combined with: main Hb in Yunnan Bai Yao (Yunnan White

Powder Antitrauma Formula); can be used orally alone as

powder/w Huaruishi & Xueyutan

 

Comments: Oral/Topical; safe in large doses; best Hb for

haemorrhage*~serious, trauma*, Xue Stasis* & pain*~trauma

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Best regards,

 

 

WORK : Teagasc Staff Development Unit, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland

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[Guest guest]

> Notes from my files on Sanqi are below. They say that it is both a

> Haemostat AND a Move Xue Herb. It is used in clinically

> haemorrhage AND in Xue Stasis.

>

> I would appreciate it if CHM experts would discuss the apparent

> paradox whereby an herb may be a Haemostat AND a Move Xue

> Herb at the same time, and also discuss the risk of inducing

> haemorrhage or blood clots if used inappropriately in patients

> predisposed to those disorders.

>

>

I claim to be no expert, but this does not puzzle me. I see no

paradox. Bleeding, as mentioned previous, has the 4 causes (xu

(qi/yang), stasis, heat, & Trauma.) These herbs ( & others) are

clearly best for situations where the bleeding is from blood stasis.

This shows clearly a very valuable differntiation for bleeding that

western medicine does not acknowledge, for better or worse. I ask

you, why do you see a paradox, therefore why do you equate blood

moving with bleeding?

 

-Jason

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

There are four possible causes of bleeding in CM: 1) heat forcing the

blood to move frenetically outside its pathways, 2) qi vacuity failing

to contain the blood within its vessels, 3) blood stasis forcing the

blood to move outside its vessels, and 4) (physical) traumatic injury

which severs the channels and vessels. San Qi is especially good for

treating three out of these four: numbers 2, 3, and 4. (San Qi has

some ability to supplement the qi, although this is not discussed in

most modern materia medica. I believe we have discussed this once

before on this BB.) In situation number 4, any blood outside the

channels and vessels is, ipso facto, static blood. It is the vessels

(or heart and vessels) which stir or move the blood. Therefore, blood

outside the vessels is static or unmoving. This is why static blood

complicates the overwhelming majority of cases of chronic bleeding

whether or not blood stasis was an original cause of that bleeding. In

such cases, San Qi is a very important and useful med.

 

Part of the problem in understanding how a blood-quickening med is

able to also stop bleeding is the words you're using. (Oh dear, here

we go again.) The Chinese word " huo " is best translated by the word

" quicken. " In English, quicken means to move more quickly but also

means to bring back to life, and Chinese use this word in exactly this

meaning within CM (huo sheng, as in bring back to life). (This is one

of Nigel's best, most insightful term choices.) Synonyms for yu

xue/xue yu, static blood/blood stasis, in Chinese include dead blood

(shi xue), dry blood (gan xue), and malign blood (e xue). So meds

which quicken the blood also bring the blood back to life and promote

its engenderment. As I think you know, static blood hinders the

engenderment of new or fresh blood. This is also why words like

" invigorate " (meaning to make stronger) and " activate " (meaning to

make function) are either absolutely incorrect as in the first case or

only partially correct as in the second.

 

Herbs that quicken also help make the " dry blood " which cannot

" nourish and moisten, " i.e., the functions of the blood in CM, wet

again. That is why a number of the most important and commonly used

blood-quickening meds both nourish and quicken, e.g., Radix Angalicae

Sinensis (Dang Gui), Radix Salviae Miltirrhizae (Dan Shen), Flos

Carthami Tinctorii (Hong Hua), etc. To understand this point, it is

useful to know that the Chinese words for quicken is " spelled " by

placing the character for silt under or within the disease radical. So

static blood is like silt pathologically silting up and obstructing

the free flow of the channels and vessels.

 

Given the above, there is nothing illogical in Chinese for a

blood-quickening med to also have bleeding-stopping functions and

effects. It is only when you think that the word " huo " only means to

make move faster that this seems illogical. Once you understand that

blood-quickening meds bring dead blood back to life and help the blood

to be engendered (sheng, the word " life " ), then you can also

understand why blood-quickening meds are indicated for dry blood as

well.

 

As a CM gynecologist, I have spent many years using lots and lots of

blood-quickening meds, and I have never once seen a case of unwanted

or pathologically excessive bleeding due to the use of

blood-quickening meds. I'm not saying that this is impossible, but I

think the concern over this among students and neophytes in the West

has been blown out of proportion.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

So meds which quicken the blood also bring the blood back to life and promote its engenderment

>>>>>That i why i think vitalize is a better term

alon

[Guest guest]

Well put Bob -

Marnae

At 04:13 PM 6/10/2003 +0000, you wrote:

Phil,

There are four possible causes of bleeding in CM: 1) heat forcing the

 

blood to move frenetically outside its pathways, 2) qi vacuity failing

 

to contain the blood within its vessels, 3) blood stasis forcing the

 

blood to move outside its vessels, and 4) (physical) traumatic injury

 

which severs the channels and vessels. San Qi is especially good for

 

treating three out of these four: numbers 2, 3, and 4. (San Qi has

some ability to supplement the qi, although this is not discussed in

 

most modern materia medica. I believe we have discussed this once

before on this BB.) In situation number 4, any blood outside the

channels and vessels is, ipso facto, static blood. It is the vessels

 

(or heart and vessels) which stir or move the blood. Therefore, blood

 

outside the vessels is static or unmoving. This is why static blood

complicates the overwhelming majority of cases of chronic bleeding

whether or not blood stasis was an original cause of that bleeding. In

 

such cases, San Qi is a very important and useful med.

Part of the problem in understanding how a blood-quickening med is

able to also stop bleeding is the words you're using. (Oh dear, here

 

we go again.) The Chinese word " huo " is best translated by the

word

" quicken. " In English, quicken means to move more quickly but

also

means to bring back to life, and Chinese use this word in exactly this

 

meaning within CM (huo sheng, as in bring back to life). (This is one

 

of Nigel's best, most insightful term choices.) Synonyms for yu

xue/xue yu, static blood/blood stasis, in Chinese include dead blood

 

(shi xue), dry blood (gan xue), and malign blood (e xue). So meds

which quicken the blood also bring the blood back to life and promote

 

its engenderment. As I think you know, static blood hinders the

engenderment of new or fresh blood. This is also why words like

" invigorate " (meaning to make stronger) and

" activate " (meaning to

make function) are either absolutely incorrect as in the first case or

 

only partially correct as in the second.

Herbs that quicken also help make the " dry blood " which cannot

 

" nourish and moisten, " i.e., the functions of the blood in CM,

wet

again. That is why a number of the most important and commonly used

blood-quickening meds both nourish and quicken, e.g., Radix Angalicae

 

Sinensis (Dang Gui), Radix Salviae Miltirrhizae (Dan Shen), Flos

Carthami Tinctorii (Hong Hua), etc. To understand this point, it is

useful to know that the Chinese words for quicken is " spelled "

by

placing the character for silt under or within the disease radical. So

 

static blood is like silt pathologically silting up and obstructing

the free flow of the channels and vessels.

Given the above, there is nothing illogical in Chinese for a

blood-quickening med to also have bleeding-stopping functions and

effects. It is only when you think that the word " huo " only

means to

make move faster that this seems illogical. Once you understand that

 

blood-quickening meds bring dead blood back to life and help the blood

 

to be engendered (sheng, the word " life " ), then you can also

 

understand why blood-quickening meds are indicated for dry blood as

well.

As a CM gynecologist, I have spent many years using lots and lots of

 

blood-quickening meds, and I have never once seen a case of unwanted

 

or pathologically excessive bleeding due to the use of

blood-quickening meds. I'm not saying that this is impossible, but I

 

think the concern over this among students and neophytes in the West

 

has been blown out of proportion.

Bob