Guest guest Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Have put my case study from last semester in Files. I think this is the format Ming wants us to do them in as he gave me a decent mark and those are v.rare for me!Hope you find it useful and don't think it's rubbish. love kate x x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Okay, everybody, I'm lookin' for free advice. Patient is getting IMpatient!!!!!!!! She is a 28 year old female that comes to me with a chief complaint of bad breath. She has had since she was 12 years old. She also says she always has a dry mouth. She is of normal weight, and has some skin breakouts around the nose and chin (but nothing on forehead or jaw line). She has had a recent history of ovarian cysts, and has difficult periods. That is to say, PMS symptoms, breast tenderness, head aches, and irritability, and headaches during the cycle, which she describes as painful, with clotty menstruate, blood flow is very heavy for two days and regular for three more. She notices that at ovulation she also has mittelschmertz. There had also been a lot of sinus problems and sinus head aches prior to coming for treatment. She also complains of frequent urination, micturation is full, urine is pale. She has been coming weekly for acupuncture for about three months, and claims to be fairly good with diet. She has been given the Flaw's Tao of Healthy Eating, and advised and agreed to refraining from spicy, hot, and dairy type foods. I have asked for a diet diary but haven't gotten one..She claims she is sensitive to hot spicy stuff to begin with. There is also stomach gnawing, and she needs to eat frequently. She has been checked by MD for diabetes. She works as a school teacher and says it is fairly stressful. she has also complained of anxiety which improved greatly with Golden Flower formula " Salvia Ten " . Previously we tried Perilla and Mentha formula from Bluepoppy, with no improvement (about three weeks), prior to all this other stuff, and then she decided to really dig her heels in and let me write the formulas. She had been taking the following of late, KPC, the sinus cleared and there was moderate improvement in the bad breath: Pei Lan 12 Cang Zhu 8 Dan Nan Xing 5 Huang Lian 12 Bai Zhi 10 Cang Er Zi 8 Xin Yi 10 Qing Hao 10 Shi Chang Pu Ban Xia Hou Po 6 Zi Su Ye 6 after a month of this I changed the formula in effort to improve the situation, thinking perhaps it was necessary to treat more liver and stomach heat: Huang Lian 12 Chuan Lian Zi 12 Mu Dan Pi 10 Huang Qin 12 Ren Shen 6 gan Cao 4 Da Zao 6 Bai Zhu 9 she is also taking 6 tablets of Golden Flower Er Chen Tang per day, and the Golden flower Salvia Ten I know that sounds like a lot of stuff, but all sinus head ache is gone, and bad breath is 50 % improved. patient is anxious about getting " CURED " . How can I improve the chances of this? Basically, today the tongue is pale, large, scalloped with orangey swollen sides and a dry dirty grayish yellow coat. I have been thinking liver, spleen and stomach, with some liver qi yu leading to heat, and an underlaying kidney yang and qi vacuity. There is also this history of dampness,...ovarian cysts, sinus, etc., I believe stemming from a spleen destroyed by poor food choices and an uppity liver.....lol! Any one care to comment? I am really asking for it I know! Please be kind when you dissect my treatment strategy! As far as acupuncture treatments, , st 36, gb41, sj5, ren 12, st 40, liver 3, LI 4, st44, kid 7. Back side:moxa bl 20, and 23, needle bl 18. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 i think that this person is not healing because of the impatience. she is not allowing the energetic balancing of your treatments to be sustained as she drains her spleen qi with the constant worrying about healing(my assumption) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Pamelor: I know this may sound dumb, but I haven't personally smelled the patients breath. Perhaps it is subjective only, and perhaps needs to be rethought as a bad taste in her mouth and not " bad breath " . I will have to check this out. Thanks for the useful feedback. PS I am forwarding these emails to the patient as well. Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Can you describe what her breath smells like? Without knowing what she is eating (whose ferments could be coming up as eructations, or whose presence in the blood might be exhaled along with CO2... But the dry mouth is interesting. What are her teeth and gums like (history of dental/peridontal problems? Does she brush often, floss, waterpik?). Also, chronic dry mouth can give rise to overgrowth of certain bacteria who are not washed away by saliva and apparently thrive in such a dryer environment (by the way, the hardly ubiquitous BIOTENE brand of mouth wash and tooth pastes are oriented towards this problem, keeping the mouth moister and these particular bacteria at bay) see www.laclede.com which might have some studies published. Dry mouth, (and the bad breath, tooth and gum disease it aggravates) is also a side effect of certain pharmaceutical drugs (e.g., belladonna alkaloids are famous for it (scopalamine transdermal patches, & c), some sedatives and also tricyclic antidepressants. I have a patient who lost her teeth from years of taking Pamelor (for migraine prophylaxis). Prof Neal White. - Aknchn Chinese Medicine Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:53 PM Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study Okay, everybody, I'm lookin' for free advice. Patient is getting IMpatient!!!!!!!!She is a 28 year old female that comes to me with a chief complaint of bad breath. She has had since she was 12 years old. She also says she always has a dry mouth.She is of normal weight, and has some skin breakouts around the nose and chin (but nothing on forehead or jaw line). She has had a recent history of ovarian cysts, and has difficult periods. That is to say, PMS symptoms, breast tenderness, head aches, and irritability, and headaches during the cycle, which she describes as painful, with clotty menstruate, blood flow is very heavy for two days and regular for three more. She notices that at ovulation she also has mittelschmertz. There had also been a lot of sinus problems and sinus head aches prior to coming for treatment. She also complains of frequent urination, micturation is full, urine is pale.She has been coming weekly for acupuncture for about three months, and claims to be fairly good with diet. She has been given the Flaw's Tao of Healthy Eating, and advised and agreed to refraining from spicy, hot, and dairy type foods. I have asked for a diet diary but haven't gotten one..She claims she is sensitive to hot spicy stuff to begin with. There is also stomach gnawing, and she needs to eat frequently. She has been checked by MD for diabetes.She works as a school teacher and says it is fairly stressful. she has also complained of anxiety which improved greatly with Golden Flower formula "Salvia Ten". Previously we tried Perilla and Mentha formula from Bluepoppy, with no improvement (about three weeks), prior to all this other stuff, and then she decided to really dig her heels in and let me write the formulas.She had been taking the following of late, KPC, the sinus cleared and there was moderate improvement in the bad breath:Pei Lan 12Cang Zhu 8Dan Nan Xing 5Huang Lian 12Bai Zhi 10Cang Er Zi 8 Xin Yi 10Qing Hao 10 Shi Chang PuBan XiaHou Po 6 Zi Su Ye 6 after a month of this I changed the formula in effort to improve the situation, thinking perhaps it was necessary to treat more liver and stomach heat:Huang Lian 12Chuan Lian Zi 12Mu Dan Pi 10 Huang Qin 12Ren Shen 6gan Cao 4 Da Zao 6Bai Zhu 9she is also taking 6 tablets of Golden Flower Er Chen Tang per day, and the Golden flower Salvia TenI know that sounds like a lot of stuff, but all sinus head ache is gone, and bad breath is 50 % improved. patient is anxious about getting "CURED". How can I improve the chances of this?Basically, today the tongue is pale, large, scalloped with orangey swollen sides and a dry dirty grayish yellow coat.I have been thinking liver, spleen and stomach, with some liver qi yu leading to heat, and an underlaying kidney yang and qi vacuity. There is also this history of dampness,...ovarian cysts, sinus, etc., I believe stemming from a spleen destroyed by poor food choices and an uppity liver.....lol!Any one care to comment? I am really asking for it I know! Please be kind when you dissect my treatment strategy!As far as acupuncture treatments, , st 36, gb41, sj5, ren 12, st 40, liver 3, LI 4, st44, kid 7. Back side:moxa bl 20, and 23, needle bl 18.Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I think the root cause is the Liver. The bad breath started when she was 12 and may have coinsided with the start of her menstruation, pointing towards the involvement of both the Liver and the Kidney. The irritability, PMS clots and tender breasts points towards Liver Qi stagnation. This will causes heat and invade the stomach leading to the bad breath. This will lead to a kidney yin deficiency and cause alot of heat in the body espically the blood, causing the skin problems around the nose. The sinisus problems and headaches may be caused by the liver yang rising (and GB) burning the lung and leading to dryness and pain. I would use acupoints to reduce liver yang, release the contrained liver qi anourish the stomach yin nd tonify kidney Yin. Formula would be directed towards the same principles. Atti Chinese Medicine , " renee white " <mamimami@t...> wrote: > Can you describe what her breath smells like? > Without knowing what she is eating (whose ferments could be coming up as eructations, or whose presence in the blood might be exhaled along with CO2... > But the dry mouth is interesting. What are her teeth and gums like (history of dental/peridontal problems? Does she brush often, floss, waterpik?). Also, chronic dry mouth can give rise to overgrowth of certain bacteria who are not washed away by saliva and apparently thrive in such a dryer environment (by the way, the hardly ubiquitous BIOTENE brand of mouth wash and tooth pastes are oriented towards this problem, keeping the mouth moister and these particular bacteria at bay) see > www.laclede.com > which might have some studies published. Dry mouth, (and the bad breath, tooth and gum disease it aggravates) is also a side effect of certain pharmaceutical drugs (e.g., belladonna alkaloids are famous for it (scopalamine transdermal patches, & c), some sedatives and also tricyclic antidepressants. I have a patient who lost her teeth from years of taking Pamelor (for migraine prophylaxis). > Prof Neal White. > - > Aknchn@c... > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, May 27, 2003 5:53 PM > Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > > > Okay, everybody, I'm lookin' for free advice. Patient is getting > IMpatient!!!!!!!! > She is a 28 year old female that comes to me with a chief complaint of bad > breath. She has had since she was 12 years old. She also says she always has a > dry mouth. > She is of normal weight, and has some skin breakouts around the nose and chin > (but nothing on forehead or jaw line). She has had a recent history of > ovarian cysts, and has difficult periods. That is to say, PMS symptoms, breast > tenderness, head aches, and irritability, and headaches during the cycle, which she > describes as painful, with clotty menstruate, blood flow is very heavy for > two days and regular for three more. She notices that at ovulation she also has > mittelschmertz. > There had also been a lot of sinus problems and sinus head aches prior to > coming for treatment. She also complains of frequent urination, micturation is > full, urine is pale. > She has been coming weekly for acupuncture for about three months, and claims > to be fairly good with diet. She has been given the Flaw's Tao of Healthy > Eating, and advised and agreed to refraining from spicy, hot, and dairy type > foods. I have asked for a diet diary but haven't gotten one..She claims she is > sensitive to hot spicy stuff to begin with. There is also stomach gnawing, and > she needs to eat frequently. She has been checked by MD for diabetes. > She works as a school teacher and says it is fairly stressful. she has also > complained of anxiety which improved greatly with Golden Flower formula " Salvia > Ten " . > Previously we tried Perilla and Mentha formula from Bluepoppy, with no > improvement (about three weeks), prior to all this other stuff, and then she decided > to really dig her heels in and let me write the formulas. > She had been taking the following of late, KPC, the sinus cleared and there > was moderate improvement in the bad breath: > Pei Lan 12 > Cang Zhu 8 > Dan Nan Xing 5 > Huang Lian 12 > Bai Zhi 10 > Cang Er Zi 8 Xin Yi 10 > Qing Hao 10 Shi Chang Pu > Ban Xia > Hou Po 6 Zi Su Ye 6 > after a month of this I changed the formula in effort to improve the > situation, thinking perhaps it was necessary to treat more liver and stomach heat: > Huang Lian 12 > Chuan Lian Zi 12 > Mu Dan Pi 10 > Huang Qin 12 > Ren Shen 6 > gan Cao 4 > Da Zao 6 > Bai Zhu 9 > she is also taking 6 tablets of Golden Flower Er Chen Tang per day, and the > Golden flower Salvia Ten > I know that sounds like a lot of stuff, but all sinus head ache is gone, and > bad breath is 50 % improved. patient is anxious about getting " CURED " . How can > I improve the chances of this? > Basically, today the tongue is pale, large, scalloped with orangey swollen > sides and a dry dirty grayish yellow coat. > I have been thinking liver, spleen and stomach, with some liver qi yu leading > to heat, and an underlaying kidney yang and qi vacuity. There is also this > history of dampness,...ovarian cysts, sinus, etc., I believe stemming from a > spleen destroyed by poor food choices and an uppity liver.....lol! > Any one care to comment? I am really asking for it I know! Please be kind > when you dissect my treatment strategy! > As far as acupuncture treatments, , st 36, gb41, sj5, ren 12, st 40, liver 3, > LI 4, st44, kid 7. Back side:moxa bl 20, and 23, needle bl 18. > Comments? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I agree with Thomas ... it would be best to not forward emails to patients. If there is information in these emails you wish to share with patients, it is best to cut and paste (or better yet, rephrase) the core information to another email. Be well, Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Please do not forward our emails to patients or anyone else without prior permission of the posting person. Things could be taken out of context or misunderstood. Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture acupuncture and herbal information phone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069 " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " Lao Tzu - <Aknchn <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, May 28, 2003 12:39 PM Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > Pamelor: > I know this may sound dumb, but I haven't personally smelled the patients > breath. Perhaps it is subjective only, and perhaps needs to be rethought as a bad > taste in her mouth and not " bad breath " . I will have to check this out. > Thanks for the useful feedback. PS I am forwarding these emails to the patient as > well. Anne > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Love reading about the case study but must agree about the e-mails. I believe if sent outside the group it may be against HIPAA regulations even with the patients consent. It's a very tricky matter now. Gave the case study to my former teacher. Will e-mail his reply when I get it..............Sandilee, new graduate from IICM, Albuquerque Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 I have to say, I feel Thomas has a good point. To share information from the emails is one thing ... to forward the messages to patients complete with email addresses and whatnot is not very professional. Maya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Please do not forward our emails to patients or anyone else without prior permission of the posting person. Things could be taken out of context or misunderstood. Hi Thomas, Attilio and All, I appreciate your post, Thomas. This is correct etiquette in general when people exchange e-mail on a one to one basis. However, there are some people who view e-mails in general to be a part of the public domain. Even more people consider forums such as this one to be a part of the public domain. Please note that I do not agree with this assumption, but I can not impose my sense of etiquette on others. In particular, it seem to me that since we stand before an august body of many people each time we speak on this forum, it might be wise to simply view all commentary to be in the public domain. Therefore, it might be wise to limit speech to what you would be willing to have quoted. I'm not sure that Attilio, even in his capacity as the moderator, has the power to prevent our discussions from becoming publicly known. Perhaps Attilio can address this topic. In Gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Emmanuel can you increase you font size its hard to see thank a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Emmanuel and all, Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that this is a discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. Etiquette is one thing but I frankly don't want to be quoted directly by forwarding my email without my permission. No harm, no foul! If that is not a "rule" than I will withdraw from the list. Respectfully, thomas - Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine Wednesday, June 04, 2003 7:43 PM Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study Please do not forward our emails to patients or anyone else without prior permission of the posting person. Things could be taken out of context or misunderstood. Hi Thomas, Attilio and All, I appreciate your post, Thomas. This is correct etiquette in general when people exchange e-mail on a one to one basis. However, there are some people who view e-mails in general to be a part of the public domain. Even more people consider forums such as this one to be a part of the public domain. Please note that I do not agree with this assumption, but I can not impose my sense of etiquette on others. In particular, it seem to me that since we stand before an august body of many people each time we speak on this forum, it might be wise to simply view all commentary to be in the public domain. Therefore, it might be wise to limit speech to what you would be willing to have quoted. I'm not sure that Attilio, even in his capacity as the moderator, has the power to prevent our discussions from becoming publicly known. Perhaps Attilio can address this topic. In Gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural Chinese Herbology and Acupunctureacupuncture and herbal informationWilliams, OR 97544 USAphone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069"Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything." Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 I've just finished writing an essay on ethics, although it was in this context, but nevertheless, I'll try to address the issue raised. When trying to take into account the much popularised autonomy of a patient, we often give them too much information which they cannot understand. This group deals with TCM at its student and practitioner level and so involves complex organ theory and terminology. I feel that within this and other discussions groups who are largely based upon people with a keen interest in TCM, discussion is directed towards the benefice and non-maleficence of the patient, and are a good way in which we can discuss and grow our therapeutic skills. However, when we email outside the group, to the patient directly (and not to other TCM practitioners that may be in a position to help), then confusion will often result. This is really autonomy gone mad. Even though we strive to build a close therapeutic relationship with our patients, a certain degree of decorum must exist. I therefore feel that anything discussed within groups in general should not be directly emailed to the patient, but rather taken on board by the practitioner and if they really wish, be translated in such a way as to be easily digested by the patient. All our comments, the names of the commentators and email addresses should remain private and within the domain of the group. I hope that goes some way towards answering your questions. I'm off to India this Sunday and am a little pressed for time, bit of a last minute thing. But i'll be keeping a close eye on all the comments made. Attilio Chinese Medicine , " " @e...> wrote: > > Emmanuel and all, > > Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that this is a discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. Etiquette is one thing but I frankly don't want to be quoted directly by forwarding my email without my permission. No harm, no foul! If that is not a " rule " than I will withdraw from the list. > > Respectfully, > thomas > - > Emmanuel Segmen > Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, June 04, 2003 7:43 PM > Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > > > Please do not forward our emails to patients or anyone else without prior permission of the posting person. Things could be taken out of context or misunderstood. > > > > > Hi Thomas, Attilio and All, > > I appreciate your post, Thomas. This is correct etiquette in general when people exchange e-mail on a one to one basis. However, there are some people who view e-mails in general to be a part of the public domain. Even more people consider forums such as this one to be a part of the public domain. Please note that I do not agree with this assumption, but I can not impose my sense of etiquette on others. In particular, it seem to me that since we stand before an august body of many people each time we speak on this forum, it might be wise to simply view all commentary to be in the public domain. Therefore, it might be wise to limit speech to what you would be willing to have quoted. I'm not sure that Attilio, even in his capacity as the moderator, has the power to prevent our discussions from becoming publicly known. Perhaps Attilio can address this topic. > > In Gratitude, > Emmanuel Segmen > Merritt College, Asia Natural > > > Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture > acupuncture and herbal information > > > @e... > thomas@s... > phone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069 > " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " > Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 I don't know if the moderator is interested in this tack....but here is a line that comes thru with each and every e-mail posting from another list I'm on. Kit ++++++ This message is the intellectual property of the author and should not be forwarded anywhere without the author's consent. At 09:55 PM 6/4/03 -0700, you wrote: > > > Emmanuel and all, > > Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that this is a > discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. Etiquette is one thing but > I frankly don't want to be quoted directly by forwarding my email without my > permission. No harm, no foul! If that is not a " rule " than I will withdraw > from the list. > > Respectfully, > thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Excellent suggestion Kit ************************************** In a message dated 6/5/2003 4:59:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, kitcurtin writes: I don't know if the moderator is interested in this tack....but here is a line that comes thru with each and every e-mail posting from another list I'm on. Kit ++++++ This message is the intellectual property of the author and should not be forwarded anywhere without the author's consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Please do not forward somw else's mail to me, please. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Intersting idea. Does anyone else have any views on this whilst i research the technical feasibility of this. Atti Chinese Medicine , Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote: > > I don't know if the moderator is interested in this > tack....but here is a line that comes thru with each > and every e-mail posting from another list I'm on. Kit > > ++++++ > This message is the intellectual property of the author > and should not be forwarded anywhere without the author's consent. > > > > > At 09:55 PM 6/4/03 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > Emmanuel and all, > > > > Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that this is a > > discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. Etiquette is one thing but > > I frankly don't want to be quoted directly by forwarding my email without my > > permission. No harm, no foul! If that is not a " rule " than I will withdraw > > from the list. > > > > Respectfully, > > thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Dear Attilio, I, for one, am grateful for your comments and for setting the tone of what is ethical and professional and what is not. That you begin life as a philosopher is commendable for your maintenance of this list. Emmanuel Segmen I've just finished writing an essay on ethics, although it was in this context, but nevertheless, I'll try to address the issue raised. When trying to take into account the much popularised autonomy of a patient, we often give them too much information which they cannot understand. This group deals with TCM at its student and practitioner level and so involves complex organ theory and terminology. I feel that within this and other discussions groups who are largely based upon people with a keen interest in TCM, discussion is directed towards the benefice and non-maleficence of the patient, and are a good way in which we can discuss and grow our therapeutic skills. However, when we email outside the group, to the patient directly (and not to other TCM practitioners that may be in a position to help), then confusion will often result. This is really autonomy gone mad. Even though we strive to build a close therapeutic relationship with our patients, a certain degree of decorum must exist. I therefore feel that anything discussed within groups in general should not be directly emailed to the patient, but rather taken on board by the practitioner and if they really wish, be translated in such a way as to be easily digested by the patient. All our comments, the names of the commentators and email addresses should remain private and within the domain of the group. I hope that goes some way towards answering your questions. I'm off to India this Sunday and am a little pressed for time, bit of a last minute thing. But i'll be keeping a close eye on all the comments made.Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Dear Kit and All, I must be older than some of the people on list and perhaps a bit more jaded. Like Attilio I started out life as a philosopher and poet and one with high ideals. In the past 12 years of doing business with herbs, I've seen my private emailings end up published in periodicals, used as advertising copy to promote downstream products and even used in competitive advertising copy to compete with my own company. Pretty ghastly, no? I've also been a college and university lecturer and lab instructor since 1986. So you could say I'm no longer a virgin with regard to public speaking and writing. Every semester when I teach, I face no less than 30 individual tape recorders whirring in my face. I hear my own voice from these recorders in hallways and in the student union when ever I'm at school. So I usually begin lecture at Merritt College by say, "Coming to you live from high atop the Hotel Oblivion right here in the lovely Oakland Hills. It's Tuesday night Live! We're on the air." It breaks the ice of student/teacher relations, and it also lets people know that my comments are only for-the-record with regard to tests. Having said this, I can assure you that I'm conscious of how I express myself. So when you write to this list of 351 inquiring minds or the CHA list of 800+ inquiring minds, I, for one, will defend your right to be in a warm, supportive community. However, it's good even within this warm and supportive community to keep an eye on expressing your views and philosophies in a formal and not entirely personal manner. What ever formality that you bring to a classroom setting, bring it here, too. Be respectful of yourself, your clients and your fellow colleagues. Professionalism will flow from your high regard. It will protect you and our community. The disclaimer below can be used in people's "signature", and that might help to maintain a semblance of order and propriety. My own signature will be my high regard for all people on this list. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen - Kit Chinese Medicine Thursday, June 05, 2003 2:29 AM Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study I don't know if the moderator is interested in this tack....but here is a line that comes thru with each and every e-mail posting from another list I'm on. Kit ++++++ This message is the intellectual property of the author and should not be forwarded anywhere without the author's consent.At 09:55 PM 6/4/03 -0700, you wrote: >> > Emmanuel and all, > > Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that this is a> discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. Etiquette is one thing but> I frankly don't want to be quoted directly by forwarding my email without my> permission. No harm, no foul! If that is not a "rule" than I will withdraw> from the list. > > Respectfully, > thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 Attilio, Thank you very much for setting forth some basic standards of ethics for this list. I appreciate it a great deal. thomas P.S. Kit's idea is a good one! Although I'm not sure its necessary if all new list members get a statement like what Attilio wrote. Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture acupuncture and herbal information phone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069 " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " Lao Tzu - " " <attiliodalberto <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, June 05, 2003 12:48 AM [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > I've just finished writing an essay on ethics, although it was in > this context, but nevertheless, I'll try to address the issue > raised. > > When trying to take into account the much popularised autonomy of a > patient, we often give them too much information which they cannot > understand. This group deals with TCM at its student and > practitioner level and so involves complex organ theory and > terminology. I feel that within this and other discussions groups > who are largely based upon people with a keen interest in TCM, > discussion is directed towards the benefice and non-maleficence of > the patient, and are a good way in which we can discuss and grow our > therapeutic skills. > > However, when we email outside the group, to the patient directly > (and not to other TCM practitioners that may be in a position to > help), then confusion will often result. This is really autonomy > gone mad. Even though we strive to build a close therapeutic > relationship with our patients, a certain degree of decorum must > exist. > > I therefore feel that anything discussed within groups in general > should not be directly emailed to the patient, but rather taken on > board by the practitioner and if they really wish, be translated in > such a way as to be easily digested by the patient. All our > comments, the names of the commentators and email addresses should > remain private and within the domain of the group. > > I hope that goes some way towards answering your questions. I'm off > to India this Sunday and am a little pressed for time, bit of a last > minute thing. But i'll be keeping a close eye on all the comments > made. > > Attilio > > Chinese Medicine , " " > @e...> wrote: > > > > Emmanuel and all, > > > > Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that > this is a discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. > Etiquette is one thing but I frankly don't want to be quoted > directly by forwarding my email without my permission. No harm, no > foul! If that is not a " rule " than I will withdraw from the list. > > > > Respectfully, > > thomas > > - > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Chinese Medicine > > Wednesday, June 04, 2003 7:43 PM > > Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > > > > > > Please do not forward our emails to patients or anyone else > without prior permission of the posting person. Things could be > taken out of context or misunderstood. > > > > > > > > > > Hi Thomas, Attilio and All, > > > > I appreciate your post, Thomas. This is correct etiquette in > general when people exchange e-mail on a one to one basis. However, > there are some people who view e-mails in general to be a part of > the public domain. Even more people consider forums such as this > one to be a part of the public domain. Please note that I do not > agree with this assumption, but I can not impose my sense of > etiquette on others. In particular, it seem to me that since we > stand before an august body of many people each time we speak on > this forum, it might be wise to simply view all commentary to be in > the public domain. Therefore, it might be wise to limit speech to > what you would be willing to have quoted. I'm not sure that > Attilio, even in his capacity as the moderator, has the power to > prevent our discussions from becoming publicly known. Perhaps > Attilio can address this topic. > > > > In Gratitude, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Merritt College, Asia Natural > > > > > > Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture > > acupuncture and herbal information > > > > > > @e... > > thomas@s... > > phone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069 > > " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " > > Lao Tzu > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 I'll add the ethical text that i wrote to the welcome document which everyone receives when they join, then all new members will be able to read it. Atti Chinese Medicine , " " @e...> wrote: > Attilio, > > Thank you very much for setting forth some basic standards of ethics for > this list. I appreciate it a great deal. > > thomas > P.S. Kit's idea is a good one! Although I'm not sure its necessary if all > new list members get a statement like what Attilio wrote. > > > Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture > acupuncture and herbal information > > > @e... > thomas@s... > phone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069 > " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " > Lao Tzu > - > " " <attiliodalberto> > <Chinese Medicine > > Thursday, June 05, 2003 12:48 AM > [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > > > > I've just finished writing an essay on ethics, although it was in > > this context, but nevertheless, I'll try to address the issue > > raised. > > > > When trying to take into account the much popularised autonomy of a > > patient, we often give them too much information which they cannot > > understand. This group deals with TCM at its student and > > practitioner level and so involves complex organ theory and > > terminology. I feel that within this and other discussions groups > > who are largely based upon people with a keen interest in TCM, > > discussion is directed towards the benefice and non-maleficence of > > the patient, and are a good way in which we can discuss and grow our > > therapeutic skills. > > > > However, when we email outside the group, to the patient directly > > (and not to other TCM practitioners that may be in a position to > > help), then confusion will often result. This is really autonomy > > gone mad. Even though we strive to build a close therapeutic > > relationship with our patients, a certain degree of decorum must > > exist. > > > > I therefore feel that anything discussed within groups in general > > should not be directly emailed to the patient, but rather taken on > > board by the practitioner and if they really wish, be translated in > > such a way as to be easily digested by the patient. All our > > comments, the names of the commentators and email addresses should > > remain private and within the domain of the group. > > > > I hope that goes some way towards answering your questions. I'm off > > to India this Sunday and am a little pressed for time, bit of a last > > minute thing. But i'll be keeping a close eye on all the comments > > made. > > > > Attilio > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Thomas Garran " > > @e...> wrote: > > > > > > Emmanuel and all, > > > > > > Perhaps I didn't understand this forum, my understanding is that > > this is a discussion group for TCM folks not a public forum. > > Etiquette is one thing but I frankly don't want to be quoted > > directly by forwarding my email without my permission. No harm, no > > foul! If that is not a " rule " than I will withdraw from the list. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > thomas > > > - > > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Wednesday, June 04, 2003 7:43 PM > > > Re: [Chinese Medicine] Re: case study > > > > > > > > > Please do not forward our emails to patients or anyone else > > without prior permission of the posting person. Things could be > > taken out of context or misunderstood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Thomas, Attilio and All, > > > > > > I appreciate your post, Thomas. This is correct etiquette in > > general when people exchange e-mail on a one to one basis. However, > > there are some people who view e-mails in general to be a part of > > the public domain. Even more people consider forums such as this > > one to be a part of the public domain. Please note that I do not > > agree with this assumption, but I can not impose my sense of > > etiquette on others. In particular, it seem to me that since we > > stand before an august body of many people each time we speak on > > this forum, it might be wise to simply view all commentary to be in > > the public domain. Therefore, it might be wise to limit speech to > > what you would be willing to have quoted. I'm not sure that > > Attilio, even in his capacity as the moderator, has the power to > > prevent our discussions from becoming publicly known. Perhaps > > Attilio can address this topic. > > > > > > In Gratitude, > > > Emmanuel Segmen > > > Merritt College, Asia Natural > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture > > > acupuncture and herbal information > > > > > > > > > @e... > > > thomas@s... > > > phone: (541) 955-5031 fax: (541) 955-5069 > > > " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " > > > Lao Tzu > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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