Hallo and questions

[Guest guest]

Hallo to everyone,

 

I feel that I have lots of questions but it difficult to know where

to start.

 

I have been taking Chinese herbs, most of the time for the last 4/5

years. I feel that some of my symtoms have improved, but in truth I

dont know if I feel any better. I am 47 years old but feel 90 years

sometimes. I feel that i am clinging to a cliff face and gradually

losing my grip and am slowly sliding down and down. I no longer know

what to try next, and often wonder if it will ever get any better

than this. I dont write this to look for sympathy just to explain

where I am at this moment.

 

My herbalist speaks English as a second language and sometimes I dont

know whether, when he says he cant explain something, its because he

doesnt know, my case is too complicated and he doesnt know how to

treat me, or that he does know but cant explain the concepts.

 

I would like to know what TCM thinks about hormones. According to my

herbalist TCM does not believe in hormones and attributes menopausal

symptoms to Kidney yang lessening etc etc. ( afraid I dont know all

the terminology ) and with his explanations I understood this and

believed this. Then I had a hysterectomy. And they removed my

ovaries. And put me on Premarin ( oral oestrogen replacement HRT )

 

Well, if I can be a little dramatic here, this has dramatically

changed my life. All for the worse. I think I do believe in

hormones!!

 

For the first couple of months post - op I was feeling better and

better, then I started going downhill, hot flushes, weight gain,

crying, tiredness to the bone, etc etc. I increased the premarin and

the hot flushes decreased but my weight went up more. Still crying.

At times unable to just go for a short walk. All the weight gain

seems to be fluid. Not eating much. Unusual body odour.

Unbelievably, after I have my bowels open I often have to lie down

for a while, sweating and hot.

 

After a year or so of this I threw the Premarin away and took nothing

for a few months and then found a doctor who was western medical

trained but had set up on his own out of the system and was treating

people with hormone creams after doing hormone reading based on

saliva tests. I now use a cream applied on the skin which contains

testosterone and progesterone. This did indeed make a difference,

many of the symptoms have gone. I do feel better than I did, but

compared to other people my age, I feel like a wreck.

 

In the last year, I have still been taking chinese herbs but none of

the formulas seem to make me feel any better, they upset me in some

way or another. My herbalist says I am very complicated and mutters

that he would need to return to China to get help from the experts

there. He jokes I think ( he is a good friend now, after seeing me

for 4 years ).

 

He tells me that my symptoms are from , in his words, yang not

enough, yin not enough, blood not enough, spleen and stomach not

working properly, not passing enough urine, that major surgery has

weakened my body etc. But if hormones arnt what this is about, then

I would expect anyone who has major surgery to suffer from these

symptoms, and if the surgery did weaken me, then why was I improving

for the first few months and then started developing all these

symptoms. I did not have any hot flushes till about 3 months post

surgery. If I take the view that hormones are relevant, then I can

only assume that estrogen was totally the wrong hormone for me and

that taking Premarin for over a year has in fact caused a lot of my

problems. Maybe in our stressed out culture hormones do matter. I

just dont know and wondered what you experts might have to say about

this.

 

Has anyone got any ideas as to how I can get rid of some of my excess

fluid. I cannot diet at all, as soon as I cut down or change my diet

too much ( such as eating brown rice ) then I just crash - by that I

mean, dramatic loss of energy, crying, body aching and bones

cracking, feel very cold, eyesight appears to weaken and tinnitus

increases. I eat healthily but have to have chocolate or milk to

keep me going. Not hungry just eat to stop me feeling sick.

 

Sorry its been so long and many thanks to you if you are still

reading this far.

 

Susan

[Guest guest]

Susan,

I appreciate what you are going through. And I'm glad you shared. This is a

very caring, knowledgeable group. (I am not one of the knowledgeable ones,

however, just compassionate).

I had major surgery myself...not with the hormonal complications you had,

but, just the surgery itself caused me major energy loss for two years. I had

blood deficiency, energy deficiency, spleen deficiency and more. It is quite

devastating to the body and takes time to recuperate. There are tonics that can

help, and Chinese herbs can help balance you. They have helped me immensely.

Since we are all different, you wouldn't necessarily take what I have, but I

don't want you to give up hope. I think you will find at least a little hope on

this list.

Blessings,

Michelle

-

rose4uau

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:44 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Hallo and questions

 

 

Hallo to everyone,

 

I feel that I have lots of questions but it difficult to know where

to start.

 

I have been taking Chinese herbs, most of the time for the last 4/5

years. I feel that some of my symtoms have improved, but in truth I

dont know if I feel any better. I am 47 years old but feel 90 years

sometimes. I feel that i am clinging to a cliff face and gradually

losing my grip and am slowly sliding down and down. I no longer know

what to try next, and often wonder if it will ever get any better

than this. I dont write this to look for sympathy just to explain

where I am at this moment.

 

My herbalist speaks English as a second language and sometimes I dont

know whether, when he says he cant explain something, its because he

doesnt know, my case is too complicated and he doesnt know how to

treat me, or that he does know but cant explain the concepts.

 

I would like to know what TCM thinks about hormones. According to my

herbalist TCM does not believe in hormones and attributes menopausal

symptoms to Kidney yang lessening etc etc. ( afraid I dont know all

the terminology ) and with his explanations I understood this and

believed this. Then I had a hysterectomy. And they removed my

ovaries. And put me on Premarin ( oral oestrogen replacement HRT )

 

Well, if I can be a little dramatic here, this has dramatically

changed my life. All for the worse. I think I do believe in

hormones!!

 

For the first couple of months post - op I was feeling better and

better, then I started going downhill, hot flushes, weight gain,

crying, tiredness to the bone, etc etc. I increased the premarin and

the hot flushes decreased but my weight went up more. Still crying.

At times unable to just go for a short walk. All the weight gain

seems to be fluid. Not eating much. Unusual body odour.

Unbelievably, after I have my bowels open I often have to lie down

for a while, sweating and hot.

 

After a year or so of this I threw the Premarin away and took nothing

for a few months and then found a doctor who was western medical

trained but had set up on his own out of the system and was treating

people with hormone creams after doing hormone reading based on

saliva tests. I now use a cream applied on the skin which contains

testosterone and progesterone. This did indeed make a difference,

many of the symptoms have gone. I do feel better than I did, but

compared to other people my age, I feel like a wreck.

 

In the last year, I have still been taking chinese herbs but none of

the formulas seem to make me feel any better, they upset me in some

way or another. My herbalist says I am very complicated and mutters

that he would need to return to China to get help from the experts

there. He jokes I think ( he is a good friend now, after seeing me

for 4 years ).

 

He tells me that my symptoms are from , in his words, yang not

enough, yin not enough, blood not enough, spleen and stomach not

working properly, not passing enough urine, that major surgery has

weakened my body etc. But if hormones arnt what this is about, then

I would expect anyone who has major surgery to suffer from these

symptoms, and if the surgery did weaken me, then why was I improving

for the first few months and then started developing all these

symptoms. I did not have any hot flushes till about 3 months post

surgery. If I take the view that hormones are relevant, then I can

only assume that estrogen was totally the wrong hormone for me and

that taking Premarin for over a year has in fact caused a lot of my

problems. Maybe in our stressed out culture hormones do matter. I

just dont know and wondered what you experts might have to say about

this.

 

Has anyone got any ideas as to how I can get rid of some of my excess

fluid. I cannot diet at all, as soon as I cut down or change my diet

too much ( such as eating brown rice ) then I just crash - by that I

mean, dramatic loss of energy, crying, body aching and bones

cracking, feel very cold, eyesight appears to weaken and tinnitus

increases. I eat healthily but have to have chocolate or milk to

keep me going. Not hungry just eat to stop me feeling sick.

 

Sorry its been so long and many thanks to you if you are still

reading this far.

 

Susan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Susan- theres a book out there called the Tao of Nutrition, it's for lay people

as well as practitioners and I think it would be helpful for you to have, in it

you can also find natiral diuretics (helping you lose some of the water gain) As

for the herbs not working, I really believe that after 4-5 years you should have

seen a difference in your symptoms. Maybe you should see another practitioner,

to get another opinion. If you case is so complicated then I believe your

practitioner should be doing little by little to help you, but you should have

def. have been helped by now. Good luck-

 

michellec <michellec wrote:Susan,

I appreciate what you are going through. And I'm glad you shared. This is a

very caring, knowledgeable group. (I am not one of the knowledgeable ones,

however, just compassionate).

I had major surgery myself...not with the hormonal complications you had,

but, just the surgery itself caused me major energy loss for two years. I had

blood deficiency, energy deficiency, spleen deficiency and more. It is quite

devastating to the body and takes time to recuperate. There are tonics that can

help, and Chinese herbs can help balance you. They have helped me immensely.

Since we are all different, you wouldn't necessarily take what I have, but I

don't want you to give up hope. I think you will find at least a little hope on

this list.

Blessings,

Michelle

-

rose4uau

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:44 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Hallo and questions

 

 

Hallo to everyone,

 

I feel that I have lots of questions but it difficult to know where

to start.

 

I have been taking Chinese herbs, most of the time for the last 4/5

years. I feel that some of my symtoms have improved, but in truth I

dont know if I feel any better. I am 47 years old but feel 90 years

sometimes. I feel that i am clinging to a cliff face and gradually

losing my grip and am slowly sliding down and down. I no longer know

what to try next, and often wonder if it will ever get any better

than this. I dont write this to look for sympathy just to explain

where I am at this moment.

 

My herbalist speaks English as a second language and sometimes I dont

know whether, when he says he cant explain something, its because he

doesnt know, my case is too complicated and he doesnt know how to

treat me, or that he does know but cant explain the concepts.

 

I would like to know what TCM thinks about hormones. According to my

herbalist TCM does not believe in hormones and attributes menopausal

symptoms to Kidney yang lessening etc etc. ( afraid I dont know all

the terminology ) and with his explanations I understood this and

believed this. Then I had a hysterectomy. And they removed my

ovaries. And put me on Premarin ( oral oestrogen replacement HRT )

 

Well, if I can be a little dramatic here, this has dramatically

changed my life. All for the worse. I think I do believe in

hormones!!

 

For the first couple of months post - op I was feeling better and

better, then I started going downhill, hot flushes, weight gain,

crying, tiredness to the bone, etc etc. I increased the premarin and

the hot flushes decreased but my weight went up more. Still crying.

At times unable to just go for a short walk. All the weight gain

seems to be fluid. Not eating much. Unusual body odour.

Unbelievably, after I have my bowels open I often have to lie down

for a while, sweating and hot.

 

After a year or so of this I threw the Premarin away and took nothing

for a few months and then found a doctor who was western medical

trained but had set up on his own out of the system and was treating

people with hormone creams after doing hormone reading based on

saliva tests. I now use a cream applied on the skin which contains

testosterone and progesterone. This did indeed make a difference,

many of the symptoms have gone. I do feel better than I did, but

compared to other people my age, I feel like a wreck.

 

In the last year, I have still been taking chinese herbs but none of

the formulas seem to make me feel any better, they upset me in some

way or another. My herbalist says I am very complicated and mutters

that he would need to return to China to get help from the experts

there. He jokes I think ( he is a good friend now, after seeing me

for 4 years ).

 

He tells me that my symptoms are from , in his words, yang not

enough, yin not enough, blood not enough, spleen and stomach not

working properly, not passing enough urine, that major surgery has

weakened my body etc. But if hormones arnt what this is about, then

I would expect anyone who has major surgery to suffer from these

symptoms, and if the surgery did weaken me, then why was I improving

for the first few months and then started developing all these

symptoms. I did not have any hot flushes till about 3 months post

surgery. If I take the view that hormones are relevant, then I can

only assume that estrogen was totally the wrong hormone for me and

that taking Premarin for over a year has in fact caused a lot of my

problems. Maybe in our stressed out culture hormones do matter. I

just dont know and wondered what you experts might have to say about

this.

 

Has anyone got any ideas as to how I can get rid of some of my excess

fluid. I cannot diet at all, as soon as I cut down or change my diet

too much ( such as eating brown rice ) then I just crash - by that I

mean, dramatic loss of energy, crying, body aching and bones

cracking, feel very cold, eyesight appears to weaken and tinnitus

increases. I eat healthily but have to have chocolate or milk to

keep me going. Not hungry just eat to stop me feeling sick.

 

Sorry its been so long and many thanks to you if you are still

reading this far.

 

Susan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> In the last year, I have still been taking chinese herbs but none

of

> the formulas seem to make me feel any better, they upset me in some

> way or another. My herbalist says I am very complicated and

mutters

> that he would need to return to China to get help from the experts

> there. He jokes I think ( he is a good friend now, after seeing me

> for 4 years ).

 

Please get a second opinion.

 

As for your herbalist consulting with experts in China, he could do

that via email. BTW, the Chinese are very knowledgeable about

Western medicine as well as Chinese medicine. They don't hesitate to

use Western medicine when it's the best for the individual or a

combination of Western and Chinese medicine when that is needed.

Some conditions (like some of the serious blood conditions) respond

best to a combination.

 

> sometimes. I feel that i am clinging to a cliff face and gradually

> losing my grip and am slowly sliding down and down.

 

I've had that feeling.

 

> I no longer know

> what to try next, and often wonder if it will ever get any better

> than this.

 

In 4/5 years of treatment, there should have been marked improvement.

That's why I recommend getting a second opinion.

 

> I would like to know what TCM thinks about hormones. According to

my

> herbalist TCM does not believe in hormones and attributes

menopausal

> symptoms to Kidney yang lessening etc etc.

 

TCM does not recognize hormones, but the TCM concept of the Kidneys

includes many of the functions of the adrenal glands (as well as some

of the functions of other glands). I like the analogy that Bob Flaws

uses. He talks about different maps. There are maps that show the

distance between cities, maps that show the altitude of the land,

maps that show weather patterns, maps that show population density,

etc. Does this mean that one map is better than the others? No.

They are all equally valid, and which ones get used at a certain time

depends on what the individual needs.

 

You'll notice that I capitalize English words like Kidneys, Blood,

Deficiency, etc. that have special meanings in TCM. In TCM Organs

are not so much physical as they are collections of functions. The

Kidneys are not equivalent to the kidneys.

 

BTW, the Kidneys are responsible for supplying Yang and Yin to the

rest of the body. Yang activates, warms, and dries. Yin calms,

cools, and moistens. There are two primary patterns that can

underlie menopausal symptoms. One is Kidney Yin Deficiency, and the

other is Kidney Yang Deficiency. Kidney Yin Deficiency is the more

common of the two, but occasionally the Kidney Yang Deficiency will

predominate in menopause. (I say predominate because when it comes

to the Kidneys, if Yin or Yang is Deficient, the other is almost

certain to be deficient also though to a lesser degree.)

 

> He tells me that my symptoms are from , in his words, yang not

> enough, yin not enough, blood not enough, spleen and stomach not

> working properly, not passing enough urine, that major surgery has

> weakened my body etc.

 

The earliest posts in the message base are designed to walk those new

to TCM through the basics. I highly recommend reading the posts on

Yang Deficiency and Yin Deficiency.

 

> But if hormones arnt what this is about, then

> I would expect anyone who has major surgery to suffer from these

> symptoms, and if the surgery did weaken me, then why was I

improving

> for the first few months and then started developing all these

> symptoms.

 

Some people are more vulnerable to the effects of surgery than othres

are. This is something that Western medicine and TCM both need to

look at more closely. The type of anesthesia used in surgery can

make a difference. A significant number of people who suffer from

CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome - what is called

ME in many UK countries) had the CFIDS triggered by surgery. The

risk of this happening is greater with the histamine-releasing

anesthesia than with some of the others. BTW, the CFIDS Association

of America has a list of which anesthesias are safer and which are

riskier. I did fine for the first 6 months following gall bladder

surgery, then came down with mono-induced hepatitis, and was never

the same afterwards. Kept getting sicker and sicker over the years.

I have CFIDS.

 

Western presciption drugs have TCM properties just like herbs and

foods do. Some drugs have a heating effect on the body whereas

others have a cooling effect. Some drugs will damage or drain Yang,

Yin, etc. Some drugs are hard on various Organs. (Keep in mind that

the TCM concept of Organs is not the same as the anatomical organs.

TCM Organs are collections of functions.)

 

> I did not have any hot flushes till about 3 months post

> surgery. If I take the view that hormones are relevant, then I can

> only assume that estrogen was totally the wrong hormone for me and

> that taking Premarin for over a year has in fact caused a lot of my

> problems. Maybe in our stressed out culture hormones do matter. I

> just dont know and wondered what you experts might have to say

about

> this.

 

This is not an either/or situation with one model being correct and

the other being incorrect. Sometimes the TCM perspective works best,

sometimes the Western perspective works best, and sometimes both are

needed.

 

There are a lot of posts in the message base on hypothyroidism. One

thing that has long puzzled many Western doctors and patients is that

even when thyroid hormone levels are brought up to normal with

hormone replacement, the person still has many of the symptoms of

hypothyroidism. The hormone replacement helps a little, but there

are still major problems. There is a great overlap of symptoms

between hypothyroidism and Kidney Yang Deficiency. It's only when

the person also is placed on Kidney Yang tonic herbs and Herbs That

Warm the Interior that the symptoms go away completely. BTW, cases

of hypothyroidism are relatively rare in China. But occasionally one

does run into the situation where the Kidney Yang tonic herbs and the

Herbs That Warm the Interior are not enough to successfully treat

Kidney Yang Deficiency. The person also needs thyroid hormone

replacement. (Kidney Yang Deficiency and hypothyroidism are NOT

equivalent, but many people who suffer from hypothyroidism are also

Kidney Yang Deficient.)

 

> Has anyone got any ideas as to how I can get rid of some of my

excess

> fluid. I cannot diet at all, as soon as I cut down or change my

diet

> too much ( such as eating brown rice ) then I just crash - by that

I

> mean, dramatic loss of energy, crying, body aching and bones

> cracking, feel very cold, eyesight appears to weaken and tinnitus

> increases. I eat healthily but have to have chocolate or milk to

> keep me going. Not hungry just eat to stop me feeling sick.

 

There are some cases where one needs to be very careful about diet

changes. What is a healthy diet for most people may be a disaster

for others. Again, there are a lot of examples among CFIDS patients

of this. Most people do benefit from a reduction in salt, but this

can make many people with CFIDS (PWCs) sicker. Even among PWCs there

is a great variation in dietary needs. Some PWCs do need to cut back

on salt. It's going to depend on the individual.

 

What many people with health problems do is to self-medicate with

food. I believe chocolate is Yang tonic. I do know that many people

with CFIDS crave chocolate. It's not just a comfort food; it has

certain properties that the person needs. It may be causing some

problems but it's supplying something that the person needs. If that

need has not been identified and addressed via other foods and herbs,

then eliminating it from the diet can cause the person to get sicker

and symptoms to worsen.

 

Even though cow's milk is not a good food for most of the world's

population, there are some individuals who need it and are more

energetic when they consume it than when they don't. My husband is

one of these people. A food which causes me problems if I consume

more than just a little occasionally is a healthy food for him. BTW,

dairy is Dampness-engendering and can be hard on the Spleen. If the

person has Dampness and Spleen problems, dairy may need to be

eliminated even though it supplies something the person needs. What

needs to be done is to identify what it is about milk that the person

needs and supply it via a food or herb that doesn't worsen Dampness

problems and doesn't harm the Spleen.

 

Sometimes people will substitute food for rest. Instead of getting

the rest they need, they eat something that will energize them in

order to keep going. This is " robbing Peter to pay Paul " , and will

only work for a while. Evntually the person is going to have to get

the rest if improvements are to occur.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> One is Kidney Yin Deficiency, and the

> other is Kidney Yang Deficiency. Kidney Yin Deficiency is the more

> common of the two, but occasionally the Kidney Yang Deficiency will

> predominate in menopause.

 

Do you know what the difference in presenting pattern is broadly Victoria? I

have not studied menopause specifically (I have a few years to go without

worrying about that as well!) but it might be of interest ref all these

prematurely ageing horses.

 

Susan, I know that cliff feeling too, you are not alone. I have not found a

full answer yet - both the western doctors and TCM folk see half my picture,

get half the answer, but make the other half worse, and don't understand

why. I'm having a 'rest' from both at the moment, but intend to do as

Victoria suggests for you, go search out yet another opinion, one with first

language English I think. I have a feeling if I could find someone

well-versed in both schools of medicine I might get somewhere.

 

If you have never done so you might get a doctor to check your thyroid,

insulin and cortisol levels - you might have to research who in your area is

best to go to for that, a lot of doctors are clueless. I know that feeling

of having to eat something just to stop feeling sick, and in my case it was

reactive/rebound hypoglycemia. You might do a google search on that. Both

low thyroid and cortisol (which sometimes occur with kidney yang deficiency)

and high insulin (which sometimes corresponds to kidney yin deficiency) can

cause a chronic low blood sugar problem. Coffee, alcohol and simple sugars

make that worse

 

Excess fluid I have found TCM for the spleen addresses extremely well -

judging by the 20 or so lb's I lost very quickly when I went on herbs. Low

thyroid function can cause water retention too - I dropped about 10lb of

fluid equally fast when I was trialled on thyroxine last year.

 

I would find another herbalist and research hypothyroidism a bit -

www.about.com has some very good info on that subject, and about the kind of

doctors who are having much better than averages success in treatment by

taking a more holistic, clinical view of treatment.

 

Good luck anyway. And do read Victorias posts on the basics in the beginning

of the archives - just go to post # 1 and scroll forward hitting 'next'.

They are very informative, well-written, and make it easy to grasp some

quite complex TCM concepts.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> > One is Kidney Yin Deficiency, and the

> > other is Kidney Yang Deficiency. Kidney Yin Deficiency is the

more

> > common of the two, but occasionally the Kidney Yang Deficiency

will

> > predominate in menopause.

>

> Do you know what the difference in presenting pattern is broadly

Victoria? I

> have not studied menopause specifically (I have a few years to go

without

> worrying about that as well!) but it might be of interest ref all

these

> prematurely ageing horses.

 

Here is some general info on 9 patterns that can underlie menopause

problems.

 

Heart Qi/Yang Deficiency

Heart Blood and Yin Deficiency

Spleen Qi Deficiency

Spleen Qi Sinking

Spleen Failing to Regulate Blood

Stagnation of Liver Qi

Liver Blood Deficiency

Kidney Yin Deficiency

Kidney Yang Deficiency

 

http://www.geocities.com/acupunk99/mentcm.htm

 

Here's some additional info on Kidney Yang Deficiency and menopause.

The hot flashes can actually feel sort of pleasant. At least at

first until they get more extreme. For some women who have been

severely Kidney Yang Deficient for some time it's the first time in

years they've actually felt warm. Keep in mind that when a person is

Kidney Yang Deficient the person is almost sure to also be Kidney Yin

Deficient though to a lesser degree. (And vice versa.)