Guest guest Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Dear Bobbi, Jackie, Alon and All, It's a bit easier for people to understand Syndrome X with a simple two page reading at http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/columnnn/nn971022.html. I have to teach this stuff, and really it's easier to see it as the consequences of insulin resistance which is brought about by eating refined carbohydrate foods or high glycemic index foods. They deliver too much starch to enzymes and uptake molecules in the gut resulting in a glucose spike in the blood followed by an insulin spike. If you stand next to a loud speaker, you will go deaf. After years of foods made from milled grains or potatoes, your cells become " deaf " or resistant or insensitive to insulin. Syndrome X is a cluster of symptoms including primary hypertension, high blood triglycerides (prevents uptake of HDL cholesterol), decreased HDLs and obesity. Actually obesity is a good sign indicating that the adipose tissue can still " see " insulin. The long term remedy is change the diet to prevent glucose and insulin spikes ... no more high glycemic index foods. Cook vegetable soup with lots of vegies and a little meat. Eat fresh fruit in season that have low glycemic indices: plums are happening right now. Fast from grains or keep it minimal. The short term fix is glucophage, but there are side-effects I don't care for like diarrhea. Also by taking glucophage, people are less motivated to actually change their diet. I have about 20 close friends who are internists who prescribe glucophage, but mainly they realize they can't get their patients to really regulate their diets or move their bodies. Becoming an aerobic athlete solves the problem pronto. I could go on for a few thousand more words but I'll stop here. Basically, you are treating the patient as if they have late onset diabetes whether or not they actually do. If you change the diet to low glycemic index, make them lose weight, and make them do aerobic exercise to raise their HDLs, you get them past the Syndrome X. In my opinion, if you give them a medication that lets them off the hook from doing any of these things, you may not be doing them any favors. In my opinion, you create Zheng Qi by lifestyle changes. Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural - bobbiaqua Chinese Medicine Tuesday, August 26, 2003 2:10 PM Re: Diabetes In a message dated 8/26/03 7:29:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackie writes: The researchers (western and chinese) have lately been looking at endothelin and nitric oxide pathways a lot. Interesting. I believe in some western ways of looking at the beginnings of syndrome X and inflammatory disease they are looking at Folic Acid and B12 pathways. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 >In my opinion, if you give them a medication that lets them off the hook from >doing any of these things, you may not be doing them any favors. In my >opinion, you create Zheng Qi by lifestyle changes. I wish that could be so in all cases, but it just doesn't seem to be, and I think the horses prove that well. We can (and do) control every morsel that goes into their mouths, analyse every component of their diet, get a perfect balance of macro and micro minerals and half a dozen different sources of extra anti-oxidents and vitamins, exercise them before feeding for months on end etc, etc keep them totally off grass in some cases, analyse a dozen hay samples to find the lowest in sugar and then soak it to reduce it by a further 50% - keep their hard feed under 30 on the glycemic index (no carrots for them) - and still they react to eg the stress of weather, a change in season, or 20g of a protein concentrate. Lifestyle changes are an essential start especially if there is poor lifestyle, a control mechanism for many, but we still need more IMO. I have been eating according to GI index for about 12 years now - with a glycemic index rating of over 50 plums are certainly off my menu - I react badly to some foods that are 35, even protein shakes etc. Then I discover there is an insulin index (link below) which has some very differnt findings, and beef and fish cause more insulin release than white pasta and oatmeal........and I'm just about ready to tear my hair out and scream for a drug. http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/insulin.htm Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 I have about 20 close friends who are internists who prescribe glucophage, but mainly they realize they can't get their patients to really regulate their diets or move their bodies. Becoming an aerobic athlete solves the problem pronto >>>>Emmanuel that is a huge problem. Many patients just want change anything is their life. We see by enlarge a motivated population, but anybody that has worked in a regular medical setting can tell you how many diabetic patients would not even stop eating candy, cakes etc. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Emmanuel wrote: I have about 20 close friends who are internists who prescribe glucophage, but mainly they realize they can't get their patients to really regulate their diets or move their bodies. Becoming an aerobic athlete solves the problem pronto >>>>Emmanuel that is a huge problem. Many patients just want change anything is their life. We see by enlarge a motivated population, but anybody that has worked in a regular medical setting can tell you how many diabetic patients would not even stop eating candy, cakes etc. Alon Alon, righto. The saying goes from all the best internists that diagnosis is not their biggest problem. Patient management is the hardest work of the physician. Even when my physiology students have a firm grip on all these facts, some still are munching heavily on the junk food. I'm heartened by the one's who attempt to live out what they've learned. Regarding the Pacific East Mall, I go there for their wide world of produce at the 99 Ranch Market. Check out the Mexican papayas and the amazingly cheap pluots. I'm also into the endless varieties of greens and mushrooms. You're right, the Thai restaurant has some dangerously tasty food. All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Emmanuel wrote: >In my opinion, if you give them a medication that lets them off the hook from >doing any of these things, you may not be doing them any favors. In my >opinion, you create Zheng Qi by lifestyle changes. Jackie wrote: I wish that could be so in all cases, but it just doesn't seem to be Hi Jackie, Rarely is anything so in all cases. My post was not intended as a definitive answer to veterinary medicine with regard to horses. It was to address human physiology, to let people get some back ground in Syndrome X who weren't familiar with it, and to consider lifestyle changes as important as herbal treatment modalities in achieving homeostasis. As Alon points out, patient management is hard. As you correctly point out, it's hard to get your horses to do their qi gong and tai chi exercises, and even if you could, it might not help. Indeed, would that it would be otherwise. Aging happens, and some cases are harder than others. It's an interesting topic. Thank you for bringing it up. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 >Rarely is anything so in all cases. My post was not intended as a >definitive answer to veterinary medicine with regard to horses. It was to >address human physiology, to let people get some back ground in Syndrome X >who weren't familiar with it, and to consider lifestyle changes as important >as herbal treatment modalities in achieving homeostasis. For sure, I understand. It's just I've been banging my head against a brick wall for so long waiting for the professions in both species to STOP assuming lifestyle or diet is sufficient, that I just wince every time someone makes general statements that lets those in all the healing modalities 'off the hook' again! When the canaries keel over, the miners need to take notice IMO. The more people believe lifestyle is enough, the less chance those for whom it is not have of getting people to really think about an answer. I just found the following this morning - sounds like congenital yin deficiency don't you think? 1: Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2001 Dec 20;185(1-2):61-71. Related Articles, Links Glucocorticoid programming of the fetus; adult phenotypes and molecular mechanisms. Seckl JR. Molecular Medicine Centre, University of Edinburgh, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh EH4 2XU, UK. j.seckl It has been long recognised that the glucocorticoid administration to pregnant mammals (including humans) reduces offspring birth weight. Epidemiologically, low weight or thinness at birth is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular and metabolic disorders in adult life. So, does fetal exposure to glucocorticoids produce such 'programming' of adult disorders? Here data are reviewed which show, in rodents and other model species, that antenatal exposure to glucocorticoids reduces offspring birth weight and produces permanent hypertension, hyperglycaemia, hyperinsulinaemia, altered behaviour and neuroendocrine responses throughout the lifespan. This occurs with exogenous (dexamethasone) or endogenous glucocorticoids, the latter achieved by inhibiting 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 2, the feto-placental enzymic barrier to maternal glucocorticoids. Processes underlying fetal programming include determination of the 'set point' of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and of tissue glucocorticoid receptor expression. Detailed molecular mechanisms are being dissected. Analogous stress axis hyperreactivity occurs in lower birth weight humans and may be an early manifestation and indicate approaches to manipulation or prevention of the phenotype. ....... I'd heard high cortisol in the mother could 'set' lifetime high cortisol levels in the offspring, and thought such an effect could plausibly explain how my mare's condition was passed to her foal from day one - but I never heard it directly related to insulin before. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2003 Report Share Posted August 27, 2003 Emmanuel wrote: >Rarely is anything so in all cases. My post was not intended as a definitive answer to veterinary medicine with regard to horses. It was to address human physiology, to let people get some back ground in Syndrome X >who weren't familiar with it, and to consider lifestyle changes as important as herbal treatment modalities in achieving homeostasis. Jackie wrote: For sure, I understand. It's just I've been banging my head against a brick wall for so long waiting for the professions in both species to STOP assuming lifestyle or diet is sufficient, that I just wince every time someone makes general statements that lets those in all the healing modalities 'off the hook' again! Dear Jackie, It's interesting that our perspectives are nearly opposite in terms of approach. I've found most WM docs and a fair percentage of CM docs want little to do with encouraging lifestyle change, so I take on the work as an instructor in physiology and nutrition. My own best experience with CM came from Michael Broffman who advised me back in the 1970s to tonify my kidney with poetry and dance. It worked particularly well. While controlling diet for horses is as easy as can be, for humans it's like trying to win converts to an alternate religion. Patient compliance has always been one of the more difficult parts of clinical work. Regarding other parts of your post, glucocorticoid administration to pregnant females whether human or other animal seems to me ill advised. Steroid molecules bind to cellular receptors and not only enter the cell but also the nucleus and dock directly on DNA sites. Endogenous effects on a developing fetus would seem notable, but I have not read literature in this area. Did you mean high cortisol in the mother due to stress? Due to exogenous administration by a vet? I'm confused as to your line of thought. Regarding one of your previous posts noting the nutritional article that questions the integrity of glycemic index studies, this is not something I can give much weight to since it is a preliminary study of a new approach to measuring insulin release. When there's a few years worth of research in that area, we'll be able to understand the integrity of that work. One normally does not make clinical decisions based on individual citations but rather on a body of literature. Time permitting I'll look into other aspects of your post. All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Jackie, We have been through all this before on the other list. By your own admission your horse was castrated due to 'misbehaviour' perceived by the stud owners. [ In fact he was behaving in a precocious sexual manner that no-one could be bothered to determine the reason for.] Does this not account for anything in an animal's life - to have its health derive from natural Jing through a fully intact Kidney system ? WHY ARE YOU PERSISTENTLY IGNORING THIS FACTOR ? What you say about stress being transferred from mother to offspring may be true. But have you ever considered that your horse may have been trying to compenstae hormone-wise for higher than normal corticosteroids by making more androgens? There is a common pre-hormone cascade from cholesterol to androgens in one branch and from cholesterol to corticosteroids in another branch in human males & probably in male horses as well. Adaptogenic processes in the young animal may have triggered higher testosterone levels to pull the production away from corticosteroids and thereby enable growth. Corticosteroids as you probably are aware tend to catabolism so any growing animal in a permanent / inherited stressesd-catabolic state is going to make adaptive changes to its hormonal mileau to facilitate normal growth. By castrating the animal when it was in just such an adaptive state it has been condemned to a life of permanent stress. May I suggest that before you make another post on this subject you go away and treat your horse to a dose of androgen. Find a source of testosterone and introduce it to him slowly so that he goes through 'puberty' and is allowed to experience all the emotions and sensations that were denied him as a youngster. Find him a girl horse who will appreciate his attention and keep him away from boy horses who he will probably get aggressive with, until he is re-socialised in his new hormonal mileau. My bet is that once you get him up to normal horse levels of testosterone he will be a different animal : many - if not all - the bothersome symptoms that go round and come back again which you have described in detail will disappear. OK Jackie. Please do that before you post again on the castrated horse. Give him a break and give us a break too. Thank you. Sammy. jackie [Jackie] 27 August 2003 16:38 Chinese Medicine Re: Diabetes - Syndrome X >Rarely is anything so in all cases. My post was not intended as a >definitive answer to veterinary medicine with regard to horses. It was to >address human physiology, to let people get some back ground in Syndrome X >who weren't familiar with it, and to consider lifestyle changes as important >as herbal treatment modalities in achieving homeostasis. For sure, I understand. It's just I've been banging my head against a brick wall for so long waiting for the professions in both species to STOP assuming lifestyle or diet is sufficient, that I just wince every time someone makes general statements that lets those in all the healing modalities 'off the hook' again! When the canaries keel over, the miners need to take notice IMO. The more people believe lifestyle is enough, the less chance those for whom it is not have of getting people to really think about an answer. I just found the following this morning - sounds like congenital yin deficiency don't you think? 1: Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2001 Dec 20;185(1-2):61-71. Related Articles, Links Glucocorticoid programming of the fetus; adult phenotypes and molecular mechanisms. Seckl JR. Molecular Medicine Centre, University of Edinburgh, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh EH4 2XU, UK. j.seckl It has been long recognised that the glucocorticoid administration to pregnant mammals (including humans) reduces offspring birth weight. Epidemiologically, low weight or thinness at birth is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular and metabolic disorders in adult life. So, does fetal exposure to glucocorticoids produce such 'programming' of adult disorders? Here data are reviewed which show, in rodents and other model species, that antenatal exposure to glucocorticoids reduces offspring birth weight and produces permanent hypertension, hyperglycaemia, hyperinsulinaemia, altered behaviour and neuroendocrine responses throughout the lifespan. This occurs with exogenous (dexamethasone) or endogenous glucocorticoids, the latter achieved by inhibiting 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 2, the feto-placental enzymic barrier to maternal glucocorticoids. Processes underlying fetal programming include determination of the 'set point' of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and of tissue glucocorticoid receptor expression. Detailed molecular mechanisms are being dissected. Analogous stress axis hyperreactivity occurs in lower birth weight humans and may be an early manifestation and indicate approaches to manipulation or prevention of the phenotype. ...... I'd heard high cortisol in the mother could 'set' lifetime high cortisol levels in the offspring, and thought such an effect could plausibly explain how my mare's condition was passed to her foal from day one - but I never heard it directly related to insulin before. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 >We have been through all this before on the other list. By your own >admission your horse was castrated due to 'misbehaviour' perceived by the >stud owners. Incorrect. >[ In fact he was behaving in a precocious sexual manner that >no-one could be bothered to determine the reason for.] Also incorrect. >Does this not account for anything in an animal's life - I have no idea - certainly no TCM or WM professional I have consulted has ever felt it relevant. >WHY ARE YOU >PERSISTENTLY IGNORING THIS FACTOR ? I am not - I tried addressing it via the balance of Kd herbs, as I said, and it instantly gave the horse laminitis. No-one has yet even attempted to offer an explanation for that, so what am I to conclude? I don't exactly know how that reaction translates - the nearest I can get is it made either 'heat' or 'excess' far worse. Either way, it resulted in 8 weeks confinement and a serious disruption to his exercise programme, and no-one has attempted to offer an explanation for this, nor his adverse response to every Kd or Yang herb. He also had an adverse response to Jiao Gu Lan, which I am told tonifies jing, some weeks previously - the horse became extremely anxious and hyper, and got a digital pulse. But have you ever considered that your horse may have been trying to >compenstae hormone-wise for higher than normal corticosteroids by making >more androgens? There is a common pre-hormone cascade from cholesterol to >androgens in one branch and from cholesterol to corticosteroids in another >branch in human males & probably in male horses as well. Adaptogenic >processes in the young animal may have triggered higher testosterone levels >to pull the production away from corticosteroids and thereby enable growth. OK, that sounds an interesting theory, I can see the logic - how can I check it out? Obviously as my first attempt to follow your advice was so disastrous I need some pretty authoritative consultation on this - at the moment you are a lone voice in this, which is a concern. Are there precedents anywhere, articles, case histories, research? Is it a known phenomenon? Does our own resident vet have any comment on this? Phil? And why if he is making excess androgens and is at times a danger to people and horses around him still would he want even more in the form of testosterone? I have not researched the subject, which I will certainly do, but the feeling seems to be testosterone is the last thing an aggressive horse needs. There has only been one horse I have come across who's behaviour (and I mean the big picture, not just the odd snip I have mentioned) was similar, and he did have excess testosterone. I might get it tested - I have always wondered. According to your theory it should be low, yes? That would certainly settle the matter, would it not? >May I suggest that before you make another post on this subject you go away >and treat your horse to a dose of androgen. Find a source of testosterone >and introduce it to him slowly so that he goes through 'puberty' and is >allowed to experience all the emotions and sensations that were denied him >as a youngster. I certainly would not do so without my vets approval, and I do not know if testosterone is available for horses, let alone if there is a convincing case to be made. I need more information - my vet will certainly want it. >Find him a girl horse who will appreciate his attention He has a mare with him 24/7, has had for years, though he is not safe to be left in a confined space with her. Thank you for your further explanation Sammi, but I'm afraid I cannot accept your dictat about when to post or not. Other people are interested and looking into some other aspects for me. I will check this out too - I check out everything, without exception, do little else. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 >It's interesting that our perspectives are nearly opposite in terms of approach. >I've found most WM docs and a fair percentage of CM docs want little to do >with encouraging lifestyle change, so I take on the work as an instructor in >physiology and nutrition. I am sure, no doctor has ever even asked me what I eat or what exercise I take - which is very annoying. >My own best experience with CM came from Michael Broffman who advised >me back in the 1970s to tonify my kidney with poetry and dance. It worked >particularly well. While controlling diet for horses is as easy as can be, Oh if only!!<g> I know what you mean, but the hours of analysis and calculation, and the expense...... >Patient compliance has always been one of the more difficult parts of clinical work. I can imagine. My husband eats all the wrong things with hilarity - but then of course he is totally healthy. >>I'm confused as to your line of thought. I know the mare had the same level of excess endogenous cortisol, through presumably the same unknown cause, whilst carrying the foal. I insisted on a TRH response test on her and she had a response halfway between normal and diagnostic for Cushings the year after foaling. That was a few months after the removal of a goitre which turned out to be a hormonally active thyroid adenocarcinoma did not resolve the overall pattern I saw. In hindsight a can see she had hyperinsulinemia then as well, though her fasting insulin was normal. So her foal was was carried in a pretty abnormal environment to say the least! I just read this morning that hyperinsulinemia (which is actually a more accurate term for this that insulin resistance) can cause excess cortisol - so I still don't know which is driving which. I just know both are described as indicating yin deficiency! >When there's a few years worth of research in that area, we'll be able to >understand the integrity of that work. One normally does not make clinical >decisions based on individual citations but rather on a body of literature. Sure, it just offers me a plausable explanation of my own reactions to various foods when they appear to follow something other than solely their glycemic index. We do have problems with proteins with the horses sometimes - whether that is because of their ability to stimulate insulin entirely aside from carbs, or whether it is because of higher gluconeogenesis we are not sure. All fatty acids are not equal in that regard - I think it is propionic which is the potential problem. >Time permitting I'll look into other aspects of your post. I'm very grateful, as ever. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 In a message dated 8/27/03 6:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ga.bates writes: It's just I've been banging my head against a brick wall for so long waiting for the professions in both species to STOP assuming lifestyle or diet is sufficient, that I just wince every time someone makes general statements that lets those in all the healing modalities 'off the hook' again! I am confused. Are we talking about people or horses? Lifestyle changes in some people are enough and in some not but in any event for health to take on any kind of long term effect changes are essential. I was taught that if you want some to " heal/cure(what ever that is) " they must become someone different from the person they were when they got that way. It makes sense to me and it works although it often takes people sometime to make the changes I never give up on them and realize that often they will need to hear it a lot and from more than one person for it to work. I am not sure what you mean about " off the hook again. " We are probably not going to be able to enlighten the whole planet but we can and must point out that lifestyle changes that support health for the individual also support health for the planet, such as organic food, clean air and water, less materialism, etc. With great respect and great love, Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 In a message dated 8/27/03 6:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ga.bates writes: inherited stressesd-catabolic state is going to make adaptive changes to its hormonal mileau to facilitate normal growth. I wonder about the food that the horses eat and the chemicals, pesticides, hormones in the hay and supplemental food and if that has any relationship to this appartently growing problem in animals. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 ** Perhaps you would like to explain this Jackie. You admit to the horse being castrated and then say " I never thought to mention it anywhere!? " Seems like you also forgot that you told me about it a few months ago. jackie [jackie] 11 April 2003 02:46 Chinese Traditional Medicine Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Kidney yin and cortisol > I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or > after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was > interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin > deficiency. Gosh it was you know. He was madly sexy as a weanling, started accosting fillies aged nine months and then when separated from them (with other lads) started to really fret over getting back to them. The stud where he lived insisted he was gelded - at nine months. I never thought to mention it anywhere!? ** Bearing in mind your 'Introduction and obsession' first email to this group where you say " I am a lay student of TCM trying to find treatment for a complex equine case who has both WM and TCM practitioners baffled. " ** That is not a very flattering statement to make about the people you have consulted on all the TCM lists, the dozens of emails, and the hours of time spent addressing this " obsession " of yours. ** That includes my time and expertise and insight, for which you owe me an explanation. Let me say that I do not like to be given the 'runaround' and I will be asking the List-Owner to block any further post you make to the list until a credible explanation is given. ** Finally, the case does not have me " baffled " , since I identified the root cause of Yin deficiency due to castration in April! Moreover, if you had given a proper case history to begin with your " obsession " would not have baffled any TCM practitioner from the onset. Sammy. jackie [Jackie] 09 August 2003 01:03 Chinese Medicine Introduction and obsession Hello all, I have been kindly invited to join this list, and recognise some names from elsewhere. I hope in time to be able to join in some of the interesting discussions, but for the moment I am afraid I have something of a one track mind, out of necessity. I am a lay student of TCM trying to find treatment for a complex equine case who has both WM and TCM practitioners baffled. I would be grateful of any information, insight, research or experience anyone can give me on treatment of congenital Kidney deficiency, theoretical or otherwise. I am particularly interested in any 'crossover' research that looks at both TCM and WM viewpoints of the same conditions - Cushings, Addisons, Conn's - Kidney Yin deficiency and Kd Yin and Yang deficiency. I have found some on PubMed, but I know there is a lot more in Chinese I cannot get access too. The horse's TCM differentiation is given as Liver Stagnation/excess/heat, with Spleen deficiency, and Kidney deficiency as a root, mostly yin, some yang. But he has reacted badly to all attempts to treat the root, despite responding well to liver 'soothing' and blood moving, gentle spleen support. His bloods show low/normal ACTH, high cortisol and high insulin (both recently markedly worsened) and low free thyroxine. I wonder if anyone can confirm these two patterns match? Horses do not get adrenal tumours apparently. Many thanks for any thoughts, however small, on or off list. I can email a full pattern description/history if required. Jackie Taylor jackie [Jackie] 28 August 2003 00:56 Chinese Medicine Re: Diabetes - Syndrome X >We have been through all this before on the other list. By your own >admission your horse was castrated due to 'misbehaviour' perceived by the >stud owners. Incorrect. >[ In fact he was behaving in a precocious sexual manner that >no-one could be bothered to determine the reason for.] Also incorrect. >Does this not account for anything in an animal's life - I have no idea - certainly no TCM or WM professional I have consulted has ever felt it relevant. >WHY ARE YOU >PERSISTENTLY IGNORING THIS FACTOR ? I am not - I tried addressing it via the balance of Kd herbs, as I said, and it instantly gave the horse laminitis. No-one has yet even attempted to offer an explanation for that, so what am I to conclude? I don't exactly know how that reaction translates - the nearest I can get is it made either 'heat' or 'excess' far worse. Either way, it resulted in 8 weeks confinement and a serious disruption to his exercise programme, and no-one has attempted to offer an explanation for this, nor his adverse response to every Kd or Yang herb. He also had an adverse response to Jiao Gu Lan, which I am told tonifies jing, some weeks previously - the horse became extremely anxious and hyper, and got a digital pulse. But have you ever considered that your horse may have been trying to >compenstae hormone-wise for higher than normal corticosteroids by making >more androgens? There is a common pre-hormone cascade from cholesterol to >androgens in one branch and from cholesterol to corticosteroids in another >branch in human males & probably in male horses as well. Adaptogenic >processes in the young animal may have triggered higher testosterone levels >to pull the production away from corticosteroids and thereby enable growth. OK, that sounds an interesting theory, I can see the logic - how can I check it out? Obviously as my first attempt to follow your advice was so disastrous I need some pretty authoritative consultation on this - at the moment you are a lone voice in this, which is a concern. Are there precedents anywhere, articles, case histories, research? Is it a known phenomenon? Does our own resident vet have any comment on this? Phil? And why if he is making excess androgens and is at times a danger to people and horses around him still would he want even more in the form of testosterone? I have not researched the subject, which I will certainly do, but the feeling seems to be testosterone is the last thing an aggressive horse needs. There has only been one horse I have come across who's behaviour (and I mean the big picture, not just the odd snip I have mentioned) was similar, and he did have excess testosterone. I might get it tested - I have always wondered. According to your theory it should be low, yes? That would certainly settle the matter, would it not? >May I suggest that before you make another post on this subject you go away >and treat your horse to a dose of androgen. Find a source of testosterone >and introduce it to him slowly so that he goes through 'puberty' and is >allowed to experience all the emotions and sensations that were denied him >as a youngster. I certainly would not do so without my vets approval, and I do not know if testosterone is available for horses, let alone if there is a convincing case to be made. I need more information - my vet will certainly want it. >Find him a girl horse who will appreciate his attention He has a mare with him 24/7, has had for years, though he is not safe to be left in a confined space with her. Thank you for your further explanation Sammi, but I'm afraid I cannot accept your dictat about when to post or not. Other people are interested and looking into some other aspects for me. I will check this out too - I check out everything, without exception, do little else. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 > ** Perhaps you would like to explain this Jackie. You admit to the horse > being castrated and then say " I never thought to mention it anywhere!? " > Seems like you also forgot that you told me about it a few months ago. I've followed this thread in an *extremely* loose manner over the months and will say that gelding the colt probably has nothing to do with the problem. Horses are wired diffently than men and after gelding, they traditionally grow much more muscular and healthy than they would if left intact. The vast majority of male horses have always been gelded at ages as early as a few months, without experiencing problems. From what I recall about this horses' ordeal, I'd say the biggest problem is paranoid overmanagement of minute and inconsequential details which has probably expanded the problem astronomically. The best way to raise a colt is geld him (or not) and simply leave him alone and let him grow up to be a horse. A little late for that now, I'm afraid. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Bobbi, About environment, pesticides, water, black walnuts and goodness knows what else. We went through all that on the other list and Jackie threw it back at us. This subject has already been exhausted and I want to tell you that before you waste any time on it or on Jackie's horse which seems to get worse the harder we try to fix it. BTW in your previous post you attribte something to me which is not mine but Jackie's: ga.bates writes: It's just I've been banging my head against a Hardly any wonder you are confused - let's stick to humans from now on shall we please - at least until we clarify what is going on here with Jackie. Sammy. bobbiaqua [bobbiaqua] 28 August 2003 17:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Diabetes - Syndrome X In a message dated 8/27/03 6:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ga.bates writes: inherited stressesd-catabolic state is going to make adaptive changes to its hormonal mileau to facilitate normal growth. I wonder about the food that the horses eat and the chemicals, pesticides, hormones in the hay and supplemental food and if that has any relationship to this appartently growing problem in animals. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Sammy, Attilio, Phil and Bobbi, Thanks, Sam, for bringing us up to speed on this issue. Thanks, Attilio, for having the grace to turn it into an interesting human question since hysterectomy is a fairly common finding both in the U.S. and in the U.K. Thanks, Bobbi, for keeping the faith that lifestyle adjustment is the first and most obvious tool of a good clinician. Thanks, Phil, for taking on Attilio's question with such vigor. I'm inviting Z'ev and a couple of others back to our discussions who've wearied of some of the more challenging exchanges. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural - ga.bates Chinese Medicine Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:17 PM RE: Diabetes - Syndrome X Bobbi, About environment, pesticides, water, black walnuts and goodness knows what else. We went through all that on the other list and Jackie threw it back at us. This subject has already been exhausted and I want to tell you that before you waste any time on it or on Jackie's horse which seems to get worse the harder we try to fix it. BTW in your previous post you attribte something to me which is not mine but Jackie's: ga.bates writes: It's just I've been banging my head against a Hardly any wonder you are confused - let's stick to humans from now on shall we please - at least until we clarify what is going on here with Jackie. Sammy. bobbiaqua [bobbiaqua] 28 August 2003 17:31 Chinese Medicine Re: Diabetes - Syndrome X In a message dated 8/27/03 6:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ga.bates writes: inherited stressesd-catabolic state is going to make adaptive changes to its hormonal mileau to facilitate normal growth. I wonder about the food that the horses eat and the chemicals, pesticides, hormones in the hay and supplemental food and if that has any relationship to this appartently growing problem in animals. Bobbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 > The best way to raise a colt is geld him (or not) and simply > leave him alone and let him grow up to be a horse. He was left alone in the company of other horses for five years, aside from routine handling - feet trimming and the like. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 >I am confused. Are we talking about people or horses? Both really. >I am not sure what you mean about " off the hook again. " Just that if lifestyle changes are believed to be always enough, no medic or other health practitioner needs to look for a root cause, or effective treatment protocol. I have been managing by diet and lifestyle for 17 years - now I have come to the end my ability to do that, the condition continues to deteriorate despite everything in my power to do, and appeared to be becoming out of control with the horse, hence my urgency. The insulin test I have just done has more than double in 6 months - that is an untenable progression. Regards. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 I wonder about the food that the horses eat and the chemicals, pesticides, hormones in the hay and supplemental food and if that has any relationship to this appartently growing problem in animals. I believe so - as do several of the top researchers - we have ruled out everything else. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 You may be right about the gelding Don but why should Jackie say it was castrated and then deny it ? Sam. Gateswood Quarterhorsses [for1epc] 28 August 2003 16:24 Chinese Traditional Medicine Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] RE: Diabetes - Syndrome X > ** Perhaps you would like to explain this Jackie. You admit to the horse > being castrated and then say " I never thought to mention it anywhere!? " > Seems like you also forgot that you told me about it a few months ago. I've followed this thread in an *extremely* loose manner over the months and will say that gelding the colt probably has nothing to do with the problem. Horses are wired diffently than men and after gelding, they traditionally grow much more muscular and healthy than they would if left intact. The vast majority of male horses have always been gelded at ages as early as a few months, without experiencing problems. From what I recall about this horses' ordeal, I'd say the biggest problem is paranoid overmanagement of minute and inconsequential details which has probably expanded the problem astronomically. The best way to raise a colt is geld him (or not) and simply leave him alone and let him grow up to be a horse. A little late for that now, I'm afraid. Don Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 > You may be right about the gelding Don but why should Jackie say it was > castrated and then deny it ? Sam. I have never denied my GELDING was castrated - it is implicit within the term. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 > ** Perhaps you would like to explain this Jackie. You admit to the horse > being castrated and then say " I never thought to mention it anywhere!? " I never thought to mention the timing of the castration 'til you asked. The fact that he is a gelding makes castration itself axiomatic. > ** That is not a very flattering statement It is simply the truth as far as I can see it. I see no shame in being baffled by a very complex endocrine condition, it happens all the time in the medical professions, and my excellent vet has no problem in admitting it. > ** Finally, the case does not have me " baffled " , since I identified the > root cause of Yin deficiency due to castration in April! Then why will you never answer MY questions to you? If inapropriately timed castration is the root of the problem, then why did the horses female mother have the same problem, and why were symptoms of said yin deficiency evident seven months before castration? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 > ** Perhaps you would like to explain this Jackie. You admit to the horse > being castrated and then say " I never thought to mention it anywhere!? " > Seems like you also forgot that you told me about it a few months ago. Huh?!?!?!? Where in the heck did this come from? > ** Bearing in mind your 'Introduction and obsession' first email to > this group where you say " I am a lay student of TCM trying to find > treatment for a complex equine case who has both WM and TCM practitioners > baffled. " > > ** That is not a very flattering statement to make about the people you have > consulted on all the TCM lists, the dozens of emails, and the hours of time > spent addressing this " obsession " of yours. TIME OUT! What often is baffling in the case of knotty problems (complex scenarios) is not the TCM imbalances but the way to treat the imbalances. As someone who has suffered with long-term Kidney Yang Deficiency, I can tell you that treating long-term K Yang Deficiency is not as simple as taking Yang tonic herbs and including some Yin tonic herbs to take care of the accompanying Kidney Yin Deficiency. One of the things I'm trying to find more information on is the role of the Blood in balancing Yang and Yin. Until the Blood problems are straightened out, there will be limited success in correcting Yang and Yin Deficiency. But until the Kidney problems are straightened out, there will be limited success in treating the Blood Deficiency problem (because of the role of the Kidneys in the manufacture of Blood). The technique I have used so far is to concentrate on different aspects of the complex scenario as the clinical picture changes. Even though the general TCM rule is to treat all problems at the same time, sometimes one has to concentrate on one problem more than others. And the problem that gets concentrated on will change as the clinical picture changes. I've found I have to bring one aspect up to a certain level before I can improve other aspects. And keep going back and forth among them. There is NO medical system in the world that has all the answers. That includes TCM. But through continuing to ask questions, dig for answers, and look at problems from different perspectives we continue to learn more and more. > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine > Re: Diabetes - Syndrome X Problems on other lists do NOT belong on Chinese Traditional Medicine. In the funture do not import arguments on other lists to this one. > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, religious, spam > messages or flame another member. These basic rules also apply on this list. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 > Huh?!?!?!? Where in the heck did this come from? I had been invited to another list, asked for opinions on various points, and rather 'aroused' Sammi it seems. > TIME OUT! Thank you Victoria. You were the first to suggest I investigate yin deficiency anyway, some five months earlier, the first time I posted! I wish it were all that simple to treat! At any rate the horse has just finished 8 weeks of confinement due to the laminitis caused by my attempt to follow Sammi's advise. His insulin and cortisol were very high last time a blood was taken, but ACTH low - which suggests the cortisol is was not driven by stress at the time, and he is not developing Cushings disease, so the vets are stumped again. I'm currently backing off on the spleen herbs in case they caused the increase, trying to double check their properties with regard to insulin - not quite sure how to go forward from here. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Hi Don, Interesting! In humans, boys castrated before puberty grow taller because estrogen levels fail to increase to close the epiphyseal growth plates at the end of the long bones. I do not know if they grow more muscular as well - this is not exactly a typical western phenomenon. We'd have to go to Arabia where slavery and castration is still rife to discover these things. Girls are shorter than boys because their ovaries produce lots of estrogen, whereas in boys (normally) the production of estrogen is left to aromatisation of testosterone via adipose fat. The testes of most males doesn't produce an awful lot of estrogen. Girls are less muscular than boys because their estrogen does not support this type of anabolic activity at the normal levels experienced. However estrogens in industrial doses has been used to 'beef up' cattle, including bulls. I think it was DES that was particularly favoured at one time by cattlemen - maybe you know more about this from your neck of the woods. I cannot imagine estrogen being responsible for the growth you mention in geldings unless it is added to the diet, as it is / was with cattle. I recall you mentioning before your two geldings " making wood " and I am thinking they " grow much more muscular and healthy than they would if left intact " is somehow due to the adrenals producing higher levels of T to compenstae for no gonadal T. Perhaps this is an adaptive feature that differs in horses and men. Is there any difference between a gelding castrated after puberty to one castrated before puberty ? I would have thought a gelding with constitutional weak Ki Yin would have difficulty with this adaptation, since the adrenals are driven by Kidney function. [ Just curious this: Is there a 'failure rate' with horses after they are gelded? Are gelding more likely or prone to lose their viability as racehorses at an earlier age than stallions or mares? Do old geldings get fat like old eunuchs do ? Is it common for geldings to " make wood " or have sexual interests ? ] Cheers, Sammy. Gateswood Quarterhorsses [for1epc] 28 August 2003 16:24 Chinese Traditional Medicine Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] RE: Diabetes - Syndrome X > ** Perhaps you would like to explain this Jackie. You admit to the horse > being castrated and then say " I never thought to mention it anywhere!? " > Seems like you also forgot that you told me about it a few months ago. I've followed this thread in an *extremely* loose manner over the months and will say that gelding the colt probably has nothing to do with the problem. Horses are wired diffently than men and after gelding, they traditionally grow much more muscular and healthy than they would if left intact. The vast majority of male horses have always been gelded at ages as early as a few months, without experiencing problems. From what I recall about this horses' ordeal, I'd say the biggest problem is paranoid overmanagement of minute and inconsequential details which has probably expanded the problem astronomically. The best way to raise a colt is geld him (or not) and simply leave him alone and let him grow up to be a horse. A little late for that now, I'm afraid. Don Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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