Heat signs - sympathetic nervous system

[Guest guest]

Hugo mentioned in a long list of heat signs including:

 

> -easily disturbed heart (palpitations, flustered

> easily, empty weak feeling)

 

Now I have just had the mother of a four-day long palpitation, it seems

exacerbated by the herbs I have been taking - concerned me so much I took

myself off to hospital and got an ECG, which was 100% OK thank goodness.

 

I can't work out why this happened, and wondering if anyone can help me do

so. I got stressed out over the horse a few weeks ago, tongue showed a

little heart fire/liver stagnation, but no palpitations at that stage, just

felt a bit disturbed inside. Initial herbalist re-formulated to account for

this - left in the Dang Shen which I had been fine on for months, but took

out Bai Zhu, which I am sure helps with insulin resistance.

 

IR apparently causes over-stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system, ie

a tendancy to vaso-constriction and adrenaline excess (which I know is

'classic' for yin deficiency too). But it does not seem to show properly in

tongue or pulse - TCM practitioners always seem to be surprised I react as I

do, and the first herbalist remarked when I got palps on Ren Shen 'But that

tongue should be able to take tonification?'

 

Even though his new decoction added Huang Qin, Wu Wei Zi and Shan Zha to the

digestive stuff I started getting palps. I seemed a lot better on the first

Dr China formula, no palps but quite tired with a bit of back tiredness

after a very busy week, and then he added the four below, which immediately

gave me palps. I removed the astragalus and tried again, but that decoction

too made the palps even worse, and after 3 days with nothing they were still

going almost 24/7!

 

Gentian root - Long Dan Cao

Astragalus - Huang Qi

Yimuchao

Xuduan - Japanese teasel root

 

Peony - Bai Shao

Nutgrass - Xiang Fu

Chen Pi - Citrus

Gan Cao

Yu Jin - Turmeric

Bai Zi Ren - Arbor-Vitae Seed (biota?)

Bai Zhu - Atractylodes

Lian Xi Xin - Lotus plumule

Dang Gui - Angelica sinensis

 

The hospital gave me diazepam (sp) which did absolutely nothing, and in

desperation I went and bought some valerian (with lemon grass and hops I

think) and was fine again after ONE dose (though totally exhausted now)!

 

Can anyone explain this from the herbs above - I cannot see anything in

there that isn't positively indicated in heart/liver heat, or promoting

circulation/ relieving palpitations. Does Dang Gui ever cause such problems

over time, I haven't been on that before (though I was on Du Huo for ages

OK).

 

The only thing I wonder about is Xu Duan being too yang, I have never been

given anything which tonifies the Kidney before? If people are deficient in

the Kidney, can there sometimes be an over-reaction to tonification? Of yin

or only yang?

 

Many thanks.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> > -easily disturbed heart (palpitations, flustered

> > easily, empty weak feeling)

>

> Now I have just had the mother of a four-day long palpitation, it

seems

> exacerbated by the herbs I have been taking - concerned me so much

I took

> myself off to hospital and got an ECG, which was 100% OK thank

goodness.

 

Have you taken any prescription or OTC antihistamines?

Antihistamines can cause these problems (plus feelings of anxiety and

even panic) in some individuals.

 

Antihistamine use needs to be ruled out with symptoms like these.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> Antihistamine use needs to be ruled out with symptoms like these.

 

Symptoms may worsen if antihistamines are combined with painkillers like

paracetomol, aspirin or ibuprofen.

 

 

 

victoria_dragon [victoria_dragon]

15 May 2003 17:01

Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Heat signs - sympathetic nervous system

 

 

> > -easily disturbed heart (palpitations, flustered

> > easily, empty weak feeling)

>

> Now I have just had the mother of a four-day long palpitation, it

seems

> exacerbated by the herbs I have been taking - concerned me so much

I took

> myself off to hospital and got an ECG, which was 100% OK thank

goodness.

 

Have you taken any prescription or OTC antihistamines?

Antihistamines can cause these problems (plus feelings of anxiety and

even panic) in some individuals.

 

Antihistamine use needs to be ruled out with symptoms like these.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> Have you taken any prescription or OTC antihistamines?

> Antihistamines can cause these problems (plus feelings of anxiety and

> even panic) in some individuals.

 

No, I have never been on any kind of medication. And there was no anxiety,

though after three days I began to worry about the health of my

cardiovascular system, knowing insulin resistance can really mess it up for

some people!

 

It literally came on after the first dose of the new formula, and before

that I was feeling stressed/exhausted in that 'over-extended both mentally

and physically' way after a busy week.

 

Been stuffing myself full of green/citrus tea, vits/mins etc since and feel

fine now. I should take some regularly really, my horse gets loads!

 

But it's like my husband, and ex-marine says - 'The sniper cannot fire at

you without revealing his position'. I need to learn from the incident,

there's obviously something neither I nor the practitioners treating me have

grasped yet.

 

I think it's the same problem with the horse - how can you supplement

deficient kidneys with 'trigger happy' adrenals, caused by something else

entirely? I'm beginning to wonder if what is actually needed is something to

'calm' the sympathetic nervous system/adrenals to compensate, whilst giving

the rest of the Ki system what it needs - but I cannot translate that

concept into TCM?

 

I am not sure I have even found the chronic type of insulin resistance

syndrome described by all the articles I have seen have described very

severe symptoms, almost diabetic, and therefore easily identified.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

 

Your horse was castrated at an inappropriate time in his development and

that is the cause of his problems.

 

If you think your problems are the same as his, then the similarity in

description might arise from your entering menopause. Have you thought about

that ? A reduction in sex steroid hormones can mess up your system from

immune status to mental health.

 

In TCM terms, do not underestimate the importance of maintaining a healthy

Kidney system.

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

 

jackie [jackie]

15 May 2003 21:32

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Heat signs - sympathetic nervous

system

 

 

> Have you taken any prescription or OTC antihistamines?

> Antihistamines can cause these problems (plus feelings of anxiety and

> even panic) in some individuals.

 

No, I have never been on any kind of medication. And there was no anxiety,

though after three days I began to worry about the health of my

cardiovascular system, knowing insulin resistance can really mess it up for

some people!

 

It literally came on after the first dose of the new formula, and before

that I was feeling stressed/exhausted in that 'over-extended both mentally

and physically' way after a busy week.

 

Been stuffing myself full of green/citrus tea, vits/mins etc since and feel

fine now. I should take some regularly really, my horse gets loads!

 

But it's like my husband, and ex-marine says - 'The sniper cannot fire at

you without revealing his position'. I need to learn from the incident,

there's obviously something neither I nor the practitioners treating me have

grasped yet.

 

I think it's the same problem with the horse - how can you supplement

deficient kidneys with 'trigger happy' adrenals, caused by something else

entirely? I'm beginning to wonder if what is actually needed is something to

'calm' the sympathetic nervous system/adrenals to compensate, whilst giving

the rest of the Ki system what it needs - but I cannot translate that

concept into TCM?

 

I am not sure I have even found the chronic type of insulin resistance

syndrome described by all the articles I have seen have described very

severe symptoms, almost diabetic, and therefore easily identified.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> Your horse was castrated at an inappropriate time in his development and

> that is the cause of his problems.

 

I don't think it can be entirely - his dam had the same pattern (though some

different presentation) and his symptoms started showing well before that,

eg heat intolerance and lethargy at 6 weeks, skinny, weak and poor

development 'til 4 months, then RAPID 'bulk' gain instead of growth,

epiphysitis, extreme aggression at 5 months, hyper-sexual behaviour at 9

months.

 

> If you think your problems are the same as his, then the similarity in

> description might arise from your entering menopause. Have you thought

about that ?

 

I have, but I am pretty sure not, my pattern started suddenly at age 28.

 

> In TCM terms, do not underestimate the importance of maintaining a healthy

> Kidney system.

 

I don't - I just can't find a way to support it in either of us. The

practitioners here don't consider either of us as showning any kidney

symptoms, until I mentioned a bit of back tiredness last week. The tip of my

tongue goes red when I get stressed out, but other than that it is pale with

teethmarks and some coating. The similarity is that we are both insulin

resistant with slowed metabolisms and seemingly unable to take enough

tonification to resolve that without 'overheating' somehow

 

The horse is getting aggressive again on the peony formula, and I have no

idea why. The only thing I can guess is I have been using Bai Zhu and Bai

Shao in equal measure again (with Shan Zha, Chen Pi, Can Cao) whilst trying

to find a balance that suits him of additions of low levels of Fu Ling,

Xiang Fu and Han Lian Cao.

 

Jiao Gu Lan makes him instantly anxious and adrenal at even 0.5g. Han Lian

Cao really seemed to boost him energy wise at 5g at first, but then the

irritable aggression started returning, so I've gone back to first

principles to see if that was the cause.

 

I am frightened to try a full kidney yin formula on him, which the CA

herbalist reckoned he needed from his case history, and am at a loss as to

why two overweight, spleen qi deficient, damp and phlegmy types seem to

react so yin deficient anyway? It's a pretty scary place.

 

I think I have to try it, though I'm going to study the herbs used to treat

IR in an article by Bob Flaws first. That seemed to concentrate more on yin

generally - liver and stomach.

 

Jackie