Treating Kidney and Spleen together

[Guest guest]

Could anyone give me some ideas or point me at some articles about treating

kidney yin deficiency and spleen qi/yang deficiency at the same time, even

with some Liver qi stagnation? Your recent comment on hypothyroidism was

very pertinent to my thoughts 'purkalm', because although this horse has

low free thyroxine, there is nothing wrong with his thyroid. I think

therefore it is more spleen deficiency centred than kidney, possibly some

liver involvement (from a western perspective - the liver sets the level of

carrier protein binding).

 

My careful experiments continue - Jiao Gu Lan, which supposedly tonifies Ki

Yin and Yang in a balanced way I feel lifted his yang qi right off the

ground, literally! The effect on him was very similar to Bu Zhong Yi Qi

Tang, he became very adrenal, nervous and explosive, over-energised in a bad

way - which again confirms to me he is yin deficient, despite his bulky

appearance and sluggish physiology. Han Lian Cao definately seems to help

him, and the ulcer situation is very quiet now with that and the peony

formula.

 

The CA horse herbalist I have consulted is also sure as me that there is

kidney yin deficiency, right thoughout his history. I think maybe his

condition is deceptive because the spleen situation has got much worse ( I

even have a potential cause - two years of a high oil diet 'prescribed' when

equine polysacharide storage myopathy was suspected as the cause of his

exercise intolerance).

 

So, now she is looking at kidney yin formulas, but I am concerned at making

the spleen worse. I'd be grateful for any insight, exoerience or pointers.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

" jackie " <jackie wrote:

 

> Could anyone give me some ideas or point me at some

> articles about treating

> kidney yin deficiency and spleen qi/yang deficiency

> at the same time, even

> with some Liver qi stagnation? Your recent comment

> on hypothyroidism was

> very pertinent to my thoughts 'purkalm', because

> although this horse has

> low free thyroxine, there is nothing wrong with his

> thyroid. I think

> therefore it is more spleen deficiency centred than

> kidney, possibly some

> liver involvement (from a western perspective - the

> liver sets the level of carrier protein binding).

>

> My careful experiments continue - Jiao Gu Lan, which

> supposedly tonifies Ki

> Yin and Yang in a balanced way I feel lifted his

> yang qi right off the

> ground, literally! The effect on him was very

> similar to Bu Zhong Yi Qi

> Tang, he became very adrenal, nervous and explosive,

> over-energised in a bad

> way - which again confirms to me he is yin

> deficient, despite his bulky

> appearance and sluggish physiology. Han Lian Cao

> definately seems to help

> him, and the ulcer situation is very quiet now with

> that and the peony formula.

>

> The CA horse herbalist I have consulted is also sure

> as me that there is

> kidney yin deficiency, right thoughout his history.

> I think maybe his

> condition is deceptive because the spleen situation

> has got much worse ( I

> even have a potential cause - two years of a high

> oil diet 'prescribed' when

> equine polysacharide storage myopathy was suspected

> as the cause of his exercise intolerance).

>

> So, now she is looking at kidney yin formulas, but I

> am concerned at making

> the spleen worse. I'd be grateful for any insight,

> exoerience or pointers.

 

Could it be low adrenals rather than low thyroid? That

would be kidney yin deficiency, I believe, and has

many symptoms in common with hypothyroid. Here's a

site giving examples of both which you may find

interesting, http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/. My

acupuncturist decided Ki yin/adrenal disfunction was

more of a problem with me after treating the thyroid

for three months with little change. I've started a

formula containing ginger, eleuthero, licorice,

astragalus, chinese ginseng.... and the ashwaganda you

had him on before. I also have damp spleen and she

didn't indicate the above combination would interfere

with spleen function.

 

sue

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

http://search.

[Guest guest]

> Could it be low adrenals rather than low thyroid? That

> would be kidney yin deficiency, I believe, and has

> many symptoms in common with hypothyroid. Here's a

> site giving examples of both which you may find

> interesting, http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/. My

> acupuncturist decided Ki yin/adrenal disfunction was

> more of a problem with me after treating the thyroid

> for three months with little change.

 

That is often the case, but the strange thing is my horse has a high

cortisol level already, which I really don't want to increase. What I think

I want to do is decrease the 'call' for it - so that less goes further if

you see what I mean. I feel there is a 'drain 'on it at the moment, a

stress.

 

I've started a

> formula containing ginger, eleuthero, licorice,

> astragalus, chinese ginseng.... and the ashwaganda you

> had him on before. I also have damp spleen and she

> didn't indicate the above combination would interfere

> with spleen function.

 

Interesting, I have not tried astragalus, on me or the horse. But this

sounds more like a spleen formula that a kidney one to me? I'd love to know

what she considers the properties of the ashwaganda to be, from a TCM

perspective, it's very gentle compared to most chinese herbs.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

" jackie " <jackie wrote

 

> Interesting, I have not tried astragalus, on me or

> the horse. But this

> sounds more like a spleen formula that a kidney one

> to me? I'd love to know

> what she considers the properties of the ashwaganda

> to be, from a TCM

> perspective, it's very gentle compared to most

> chinese herbs.

 

Ashwaganda was a new one to her. It's in the thyroid

support and adrenal support supplements made by a

vitamin company my son works for. Employees have

access to the overstocked products, so I can get them

virtually free. She'd been saying that it was time to

put me on kidney herbs and after looking at the ones

included in the adrenal support, said that's what's in

the one she was going to give me. Except for the

ashwaganda, which apparently she doesn't see as a

problem. That is the common ingredient in both the

thyroid and adrenal products, however, and must have

been what I responded to when taking the one for

thyroid. I had no response to the thyroid tissue (not

Armour thyroid) alone.

 

sue

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

http://search.

[Guest guest]

> That is the common ingredient in both the

> thyroid and adrenal products, however, and must have

> been what I responded to when taking the one for

> thyroid.

 

It has been shown to raise thyroid hormones in research with mice.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

--- jackie <jackie wrote: >

> Interesting, I have not tried astragalus, on me or

> the horse.

 

Caution with the astragalus. Can raise blood

pressure. In fact, we can say it's supposed to. Can

agitate / raise qi to the head, especially if there's

insufficient yin to anchor it.

 

See you,

Hugo

 

 

Plus

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[Guest guest]

how about a boiled corn shuck poultice on the lower leg?

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:--- jackie <jackie

wrote: >

> Interesting, I have not tried astragalus, on me or

> the horse.

 

Caution with the astragalus. Can raise blood

pressure. In fact, we can say it's supposed to. Can

agitate / raise qi to the head, especially if there's

insufficient yin to anchor it.

 

See you,

Hugo

 

 

Plus

For a better Internet experience

http://www..co.uk/btoffer

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Caution with the astragalus. Can raise blood

> pressure. In fact, we can say it's supposed to. Can

> agitate / raise qi to the head, especially if there's

> insufficient yin to anchor it.

 

Whoa!! Thanks Hugo.

 

Come to think of it that sounds quite like what Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang did.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

--- jackie <jackie wrote: >

> > Caution with the astragalus. Can raise blood

> > pressure. In fact, we can say it's supposed to.

 

> Come to think of it that sounds quite like what Bu

> Zhong Yi Qi Tang did.

 

Sorry, Jackie, should have written right away that

Huang Qi / Astragalus is an ingredient, er, the prime

ingredient along with renshen or dangshen, in the

formula Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang.

 

Bye,

Hugo =]

 

 

 

Plus

For a better Internet experience

http://www..co.uk/btoffer

[Guest guest]

> Sorry, Jackie, should have written right away that

> Huang Qi / Astragalus is an ingredient, er, the prime

> ingredient along with renshen or dangshen, in the

> formula Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang.

 

 

Yes I realise, I didn't think I had used it, but of course found it was in

there when I looked!

 

Jiao Gu Lan definately does not suit this horse, even with Han Lian Cao. I'm

becoming more conviced of the need to try a kidney yin formula from the

horse herbalist. She also suggests American Ginseng which she finds suits a

lot of horses. Is that actually a yin tonic, or a qi tonic which supports

yin does anyone know?

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie

 

American Ginseng is a Qi tonic but it is cool in nature so it doesn't aggravate

Yin Deficiency conditions. In humans it is often used for Diabetes/Wasting

Thirsting conditions.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Lisa

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> American Ginseng is a Qi tonic but it is cool in nature so it doesn't

aggravate Yin Deficiency conditions. In humans it is often used for

Diabetes/Wasting Thirsting conditions.

 

Brilliant, thank you!

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> Caution with the astragalus. Can raise blood

> pressure. In fact, we can say it's supposed to. Can

> agitate / raise qi to the head, especially if there's

> insufficient yin to anchor it.

 

I want to emphasize this for those new to TCM and the students on the

list. Some herbs in particular will affect the direction of Qi flow,

and this needs to be kept in mind.

 

For those new to TCM, each meridian has a proper direction of flow.

For some, like the Spleen, Qi is supposed to ascend. When Qi in the

Spleen channel descends instead, this is called " Spleen Qi Sinking " .

This is the TCM pattern underlying prolapse of various organs. The

Spleen Qi is failing to hold the organs up.

 

Qi in the Stomach meridian is supposed to descend. When it ascends

instead this is called Rebellious Qi. Rebellious Qi is the imbalance

that can underlie hiccups, nausea, vomiting, and acid reflux.

 

This paragraph also demonstrates why TCM healers are careful to

diagnose and treat all imbalances that are present. If both Qi

Deficiency and Yin Deficiency are present, treating only the Qi

Deficiency with astragalus can cause problems. Sometimes when a

person is having problems with a Qi tonic herb like astragalus, the

problem may be that the person is Yin Deficient too, and because

there is not enough Yin to " anchor " Qi, that extra Qi is going to the

head.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Can anyone tell where can I find detailed info about ginseng and their uses? I

brought the " Chinese Natural Cures by Henry C. LU " and The American Association

of Oriental Medicine's, Complete Guide to Chinese Herbal Medicine. But it seems

to me the authors of the books thinks that there's only one type of ginseng that

is " ren sheng " .

 

My dad who is uneducated told me that there are different types of ginseng like:

 

Pao sheng

Yang sheng

ren sheng

Hua chi sheng (American ginseng)

Gao li sheng (korean ginseng)

 

Most of them are cold by nature except " ren sheng " ( warm). I hope someone would

enlighten me on the different types of ginsengs and their properties and uses.

And please correct me if I'm have given any wrong informations.

 

thanks

 

 

-

Lisa Decatorsmith

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Friday, May 02, 2003 5:10 AM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Treating Kidney and Spleen together

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jackie

 

American Ginseng is a Qi tonic but it is cool in nature so it doesn't

aggravate Yin Deficiency conditions. In humans it is often used for

Diabetes/Wasting Thirsting conditions.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Lisa

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, May 4, 2003, at 08:28 PM, Rock wrote:

 

> Most of them are cold by nature except " ren sheng " ( warm). I hope

> someone would enlighten me on the different types of ginsengs and

> their properties and uses. And please correct me if I'm have given any

> wrong informations.

 

Here's an article that comes pretty close to the info you're seeking:

 

http://gancao.net/ht/ginseng.shtml

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson