Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 Could anyone please explain to me the difference between soothing and pacifying the liver, and spreading qi or addressing liver qi stagnation? The herbs used seem to be the same in many cases, so I must be missing the finer points of formula balance somewhere. Is there a good article anywhere on the net, or could anyone try to explain? Thanks Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 Is it just me or are we being too intent upon herbs? I was taught that while herbs are definitely important, that they can be overdosed with poor consequences. If you are prescribing herbs without first giving multi treatments and concentrating on pulses and test points, you might be doing it wrong. Most ailments can be adjusted without herbs. if you are prescribing herbs to treat the liver you may also be confusing the stomach or spleen. As far as liver goes, there are natural fluctuations in liver function. Soothing the liver could mean anything in terms of heat or cold moistness and dryness, soothing the liver could mean trying to balance from any of these indications. When liver function is affected, a drying and moistening balancing is usually most important, a dry liver is usually the sign of a bad disease. sometimes the liver can be treated without ever touching the liver meridian points. jackiejataylor wrote:Could anyone please explain to me the difference between soothing and pacifying the liver, and spreading qi or addressing liver qi stagnation? The herbs used seem to be the same in many cases, so I must be missing the finer points of formula balance somewhere. Is there a good article anywhere on the net, or could anyone try to explain? Thanks Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 > Is it just me or are we being too intent upon > herbs? I was taught that while herbs are > definitely important, that they can be Ho, need I remind you? It is spring in the northern hemiphere ;-) A couple days ago we had a few inches of snow fall here in Chicago. It is still on the ground. That hasn't kept the daffodils in my front yard from blossoming. We are quite in the season of Wood energy. Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 I am a wood horse born in the horse hour. Remind me as much as you want to, that is what the site is all about. Penel Eynde LeGrand <penel wrote:> Is it just me or are we being too intent upon > herbs? I was taught that while herbs are > definitely important, that they can be Ho, need I remind you? It is spring in the northern hemiphere ;-) A couple days ago we had a few inches of snow fall here in Chicago. It is still on the ground. That hasn't kept the daffodils in my front yard from blossoming. We are quite in the season of Wood energy. Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 In a message dated 09/04/2003 17:15:19 GMT Daylight Time, twomtns2002 writes: > Is it just me or are we being too intent upon herbs? > I can see nothing else to do - I have tried everything western medicine, nutrition and lifestyle can offer over the past 12 years (17 with his mother before him) - been researching those aspects nigh on full time for two years now. I have seen some solid improvements in the last two years - he can exercise lightly each day year round now, looks spectacular instead of just well, is fairly peaceful most of the time, even content for part of every day. But there is still some discontent some of the time, some discomfort, and a lack of stamina and freely flowing energy (that ebullient life which is a horse's birthright IMO) and he remains in a precarious state , 'at risk' in several ways. I was taught that while herbs are definitely important, that they can be overdosed with > poor consequences. > This I have witnessed. But 'overdosing' in this horse's case seems to take no more than 10g in decoction per day. That seems more like fragility to me, or inapropriate prescription. If you are prescribing herbs without first giving multi treatments and concentrating on > pulses and test points, you might be doing it wrong. > > I am not prescribing, I am trying to work out why supposedly appropriate professional prescription keeps having adverse effects. Take the Chai Hu for example - for horses a few hours of 'migraine' in the feet, a 'bit of a detox reaction' , or even the consequences of a mild GI upset can result in a crippling phsiological meltdown within the hoof called laminitis, which can take months to recover from, or permanently alter the structure of the foot. There just is no room for error or 'adjustment period'. Most ailments can be adjusted without herbs. if you are prescribing herbs to treat > the liver you may also be confusing the stomach or spleen. > > The first vet diagnosed liver qi stagnation and spleen qi deficiency, but entirely missed the fragility of the stomach IMO. At any rate his prescription caused a great emotional disturbance, signs of a rapidly worsening stomach condition, signs of a shutting down of blood flow in the feet, and running eyes, in a week. The vet declined to alter the prescription, saying owners could not be trusted to 'diagnose' such things objectively. I did nothing but report the response at the time, but subsequent research leads me to suspect that was something like liver yang rising, or at least liver energy attacking stomach and 'overflowing' in a detrimental way along channels? The herbalist saw no sign of liver qi stagnation by the time he came, after I had treated the horse another month or six weeks with an ayurvedic liver/cardio-vascular/digestive formula that calmed everything down beautifully, but did nothing for his qi deficiency. I also built him slowly up to the maximum advised dose of Ashwaganda, which they call 'the Indian Ginseng', but although he looked amazing and felt well (at his best time of year), it was not enough to return his metabolic function to normal. The medical herbalist, one of the most renowned in Europe, prescribed for gently treating spleen/stomach. That was fine at first, and he had more physical energy than he had in years - really enjoyed himself bouncing about. I mentioned I saw a deterioration in emotional state after a week, but was told I needed to give it a month to assess. By three weeks the horse was getting very wound up in himself, aggressive, had way too much 'adrenal', hot energy even on a half dose, so I pulled the formula. I put him back on my 'calm everything down Ayurvedic' which helped, but not enough - by then it seems he had developed an actual gastric lesion for the first time. He always deteriorates in spring. I assumed that meant he could not take the tonification without more help to the liver in dispersal, and the herbalist apparently agreed because he prescribed a chai hu and bai shao formula, despite my concern over the reaction he had to chai hu last time. But this was with peony and not rehmannia he said, so I tried. That and the following formula which attempted to address the liver again upset his feet within 24 hours. The second also coincided with a flare up of ulcer symptoms in that 24 hrs. At that point the medical herbalist quit, saying the horse was obviously too different from a human for him to treat. As far as liver goes, there are natural fluctuations in liver function. Soothing the liver > could mean anything in terms of heat or cold moistness and dryness, soothing > the liver could mean trying to balance from any of these indications. OK, I see. It depends on correct differentiation again it seems, something I have no confidence in thus far. When liver function is affected, a drying and moistening balancing is usually most > important, a dry liver is usually the sign of a bad disease. > > Bad in TCM terms rather than western do you mean? His liver enzymes and bio-chemistry are all totally normal for instance?. Would hot and dry be yin deficient necessarily? I had noticed that there has been an adverse reaction to everything contra-indicated in yin deficiency, and asked about this, but the suggestion was dismissed - the horse looked too well. That has always been my problem - I know so many ways to keep him looking well, people do not believe how ill he is inside. But there must be a state of fragility, 'sub-clinical' even in TCM terms where one is just on the edge? That's what it 'feels' like to me - a fragile balance just this side of trouble which takes very little to tip it over. What sort of symptoms/reactions would indicate a cold wet liver - any I have described? Many thanks, I really do appreciate any and every input. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 That is an excellent point! And it seems like herbs are the minor adjustors that work over a long period of time and that they are not the major cure. Doesn't excercises like chi-gong greatly enhance the effects of herbs as they improve metabolisation? Peace, Jeff --- Hoang Ho <twomtns2002 wrote: > > Is it just me or are we being too intent upon herbs? > I was taught that while herbs are definitely > important, that they can be overdosed with poor > consequences. ===== Jeffrey E. Moeller http://www.gbronline.com/jeffmoeller Join ! DNAEnergyHealing GoldenAgeProducts AlternativeHealingMinnesota Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Hi, I'm sorry; I haven't kept up with the majority of your posts re your horse, but I was reading through this one and thought I would chip in my 2 cents. --- jackiejataylor wrote > By three weeks the horse was getting very wound up > in himself, aggressive, > had way too much 'adrenal', hot energy even on a Hot energy, imporetant point. > but not enough - by then it seems he had developed > an actual gastric lesion for the first time. Probably stomach heat / secondarily St yin deficiency > He always deteriorates in spring. Liver over-acting, growing. > I assumed that meant he could not take the > tonification without more help to > the liver in dispersal, and the herbalist apparently I somewhat disagree... > agreed because he > prescribed a chai hu and bai shao formula, despite > attempted to address the liver again upset his feet > within 24 hours. The > second also coincided with a flare up of ulcer I would recommend not using chai hu at all... > But there must be a state of fragility, > 'sub-clinical' even in TCM terms > where one is just on the edge? That's what it > 'feels' like to me - a fragile > balance just this side of trouble which takes very > little to tip it over. It sounds like he has a constitutionally weak liverand that any sort of energy movement, especially in the natural direction of the liver (upwards) is to be regarded with much caution. ChaiHu raises the yang, I don't recommend doing that with him. At certain points it _perhaps_ may be indicated to use sheng ma, which has a similar function but is cool or cold, can't remember which. Moistening the liver slowly is what comes to my mind. Perhaps even just slowly slowy moistening kidney yin and not doing anything with the liver. Tried acupuncture with him? Sorry if I've raised issues or given answers which you've already heard. See you, Hugo Plus For a better Internet experience http://www..co.uk/btoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Hot energy, imporetant point. Well I thought so!! <g> > Probably stomach heat / secondarily St yin deficiency Well I am glad to hear you say that - it seemed that way to me, but who am I, and my herbalist dis not given any time to confirm anything to me or tell me his thoughts. > > > He always deteriorates in spring. > > Liver over-acting, growing. I cought that comment yesterday and was just thinking about it. If liver energy rises in the spring, that could account for a LOT! The vets fear for this horse has always been Cushings disease, a pituitary adenoma, because no other explanation for the seasonal nature of his condition could be seen. I assume if liver energy rises in Spring, someone with liver qi stagnation would get worse? I will check out some more 5 element theory. > > > I assumed that meant he could not take the > > tonification without more help to > > the liver in dispersal, and the herbalist apparently > > I somewhat disagree... > > I would recommend not using chai hu at all... I agree. He prescribed Xiang Fu and Mei Gui Hua when I pleaded for an alternative. Just starting to introduce Mei Gui Hua and if that goes well will introduce Xiang Fu, depending on recommendations from a new horse herbalist in CA now studying his case history. > > It sounds like he has a constitutionally weak > liverand that any sort of energy movement, especially > in the natural direction of the liver (upwards) is to > be regarded with much caution. Yes, thank you. The weakness has been evident from birth, whatever it is. > ChaiHu raises the yang, I don't recommend doing that > with him. > > Yes, when I first talked to the horse herbalist in CA about the vets prescriptions she did comment that the Bhu Zhong could quite well have his yang lift him right off the ground! At certain points it _perhaps_ may be > indicated to use sheng ma, which has a similar > function but is cool or cold, can't remember which. The online materi medica I have been referring to says that is cool, but raises the yang?? http://tcm.health-info.org/Herbology.Materia.Medica/Herbs.alphabetical.htm Xiang Fu is neutral at least, though I see Mei Gui Hua is warm? Chen Pi is warm too I see, though Zhi Ke is cool. But I was a bit concerned about the Zhi Ke supplied, looking for any source of a problem - it was a bit of woody stem rather than fruit - supposedly authenticated as Zhi Ke. Does that ring a bell with anyone? > Moistening the liver slowly is what comes to my mind. > Perhaps even just slowly slowy moistening kidney yin > and not doing anything with the liver. > > Interesting thought. I was talking with someone about Jiao Gu Lan, trying to find out about it's TCM properties, as it is very successfully being trialled in horses for it's nitric oxide benefit to the circulation in their feet. It seems to really help keep it open. Anyway, that gentleman suggested that Chai Hu exposes the kidneys when it raised yang, and that Jiao Gu Lan might help protect them in that regard. It tonifies kidney yin and yang in a balanced manner apparenrtly, and, it is claimed by some eminent chinese, can tonify kidney jing too. But it's energy is cool - which sounded like a good thing to me, though no-one has commented if they felt he was hot or cold anywhere 'til you just did. Nothing he has had addresses the kidneys, only spleen eg Dang Shen, and there have been many warm herbs - Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Shan Zha, Sheng Jiang. Hmm, that may well be the problem perhaps, I had not checked them all before, though I had raised the question. The ayurvedic tonic he responds so well too seems to be cool in energy overall, and I had mentioned this because i thought it must be relevant. And the first thing on the list of ingredients is Eclipta Alba, Han Lian Cao, which tonifies liver and kidney yin! I bet you are right - but as I say my concerns over yin deficiency were dismissed. Tried > acupuncture with him? No, no-one I trust round here. > > Sorry if I've raised issues or given answers which > you've already heard. Quite the contrary!!!! Thanks hugely Hugo. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 In a message dated 10/04/2003 13:25:15 GMT Daylight Time, subincor writes: > That's right. It may be indicated to raise yang at > some point, in some season perhaps, and sheng ma may > be the herb to do it. Ok gotya. > It can look like a bark or something due to > processing. The shape will vary a lot, but the colour > should be a kind of burnt brown/blue/black. It should > feel a little brittle and be fairly light in weight. > The ones I get also tend to be thin slices which are > half moon in shape. Yes, this is definately young wood, not fruit segments. Thin layer of reddish brown bark, too thin to separate, and pale pine coloured wood - you can even see the growth rings! They are thin diagonal slices like the peony root, only much more woody. It could be orange tree wood I suppose, and the importer says the sack of it smells strongly of oranges and has been verified by some authority...but I feel iffy about it, especially considering I've been having problems. > > Yes, jiaogulan is a very good herb. Can clear phlegm > as well as what you mention. Yes, I don't think I see strong signs of phlegm, I have phlegm-damp myself, and I feel like hell in the worst damp days of winter - whereas the horse does not seem to mind wet weather, or be worsened by it. But, as far as I can gather, a horse who is long term overweight with a stagnant qi is highly likely to have some somewhere, so i didn't think it would do any harm. It moves fluids too I have heard, which seems like a good sort of thing.. > > Yes, I feel he might overheat easily, though that may > be limited to his liver syste only. > > I agree. And stomach? Can chronic gastritis and ulcers be anything but overheating? To be clear, when > suggesting tonifying his yin, I don't necessarily mean > using cool herbs, I'm just talking baout yin tonics. OK, gotya. > Ever tried shi hu? No, only what I have been given. But the MM on that says severe thirst, and this horse has too little thirst. Raging apetite, low thirst, skin looks a little dehydrated in spring?? He used to be one heck of a lot hotter than he is, that's for sure - antacids and anti-oxidents have really helped him in that regard - but there's that fragility.... > > He may have a weak root, therefore unable to hold > down rising yang, support digestive function and > moisten the liver. Of course, giving him yin otnics > poses a risk for digestion. I would suggest very low > doses over a long period of time. The Jiao Gu Lan might just do the trick then as it is balances kidney yin and yang? I'm certainly not taking him off the Eclipta mix again without something yin nourishing to replace it. I also understand Cushings disease and insulin resistance in extremis are yin deficient syndromes. He has high insulin and cortisol already, and on the Eclipta mix they came down. Also Ashwaganda is warm in the ayurvedic system - he was able to take a lot of that with the Eclipta mix. > > I have a feeling that, somehow, the treatments on him > have been trying to calm or soothe or otherwise > 'control' the liver. Maybe the liver resents that. > This is only my feeling though. I'm not familiar with > his case. Maybe just give the liver what it needs - no > insults (food for eg) and a good supply of blood. > > I have been thinking about blood too - I think that may be why disturbing the liver affects his feet so much, and hopefully the peony will help there without the liver 'provocation'. Besides, if PMS, dysmenorrhea, breast pain etc is often due to liver stagnation - I believe 'Liver' may well include some of the hormonal mediators of circulatory change. Perhaps the Liver system controls more of the periferal circulation than I realised. That's deep bio-chemistry, a bit too deep to me, but others working on similar horses are coming to the same conclusion from a western perspective. It's very exciting, and I plan to research some more. But you can imagine of periferal qi and blood flow are compromised, when you start to provoke kidney yin deficiency aswell you pretty soon have a horse in real trouble. I know of a couple like that - they suddenly 'shrink' and look very weak and dehydrated after a stress like a weather change - usually a drop in barometric pressure, especially in spring. Fascinating huh - there's a discernable pattern there, I know it. Give > him the necessary materials for a healthy liver, let > him act out, work it out of his system...if he is > given the " tools " , eventually he may calm himself > down...? You may well be right. > > Maybe acupressure...do you massage him? Does he like > it? He is too tender across the abdomen for massage, and historically has been too irritable and 'touch me not' for that kind of touch. He loves macho head rubs and chest scratching and hugging, so I tend so stick to that. The herbalist in CA is an acupuncturist though, and I believe she is sending me some charts of acupressure/ massage which may help. There is a good one for foot circulation she has mentioned already. Thanks again - I feel greatly reassured by these kinds of conversation - I'm pretty isolated in this. My egoless western vet supports me 100% and trusts me totally, but admits he can offer little but moral support in this area. Poor man - you should see his eyes light up when a horse of mine ever gets something wrong he can understand and treat - which is rare! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 In a message dated 10/04/2003 13:54:51 GMT Daylight Time, subincor writes: > Note to Jackie: you may want to try tonics like da > zao and shan yao instead of something like bai zhu. > What do you think? > > VERY helpful differentiation - I can see the principles involved from that, and will make some notes and run through it all with the horse herbalist when she comes back to me. Meanwhile the Bai Shao seems to be pretty accurate to what he needs most urgently for the ulcer without upsetting the feet - my MM says: nourish blood – blood deficiency - calms liver Yang – alleviates pain - preserves Yin. The little bit of Bai Zhu should help nudge the qi along with half the Xiang Fu when I add it back in, then all I might lack is some more kidney support. This is just a formula I've adjusted from all the bags of abandoned herbs I have, pending starting again, and the Jiao Gu Lan will on order from the US in the next 24hrs. At any rate it seems to be holding him after the end of the Ranitidine drug for his ulcer - no deterioration seen yet. (I found out peony has a bio-chemical property the same as omeprazole, the best ulcer drug on the market which is $1000 a month at least to treat a horse!!) As for the other herbs, the second sounds attractive - the first one says indications of loose stool and low appetite, and he is slow in the bowel with a big appetite, so that might not be just right. I feel like a kid in a sweet shop looking at TCM herbs, it must be a wonderful skill to be able to use them all effectively! Someone suggested Dan Shen to help keep the feet circulating, and it seemed like it had much to offer, all it's other properties in the right direction, but I was told it was too powerful a herb, and I'm not brave enough to select herbs on my own really - it's pretty scary just tweaking a formula. Cheers Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Hi there, --- jackiejataylor wrote: > At certain points it _perhaps_ may be > > indicated to use sheng ma, which has a similar > > function but is cool or cold, can't remember > which. > The online materi medica I have been referring to > says that is cool, but raises the yang?? That's right. It may be indicated to raise yang at some point, in some season perhaps, and sheng ma may be the herb to do it. Then again, it might not be necessary to raise yang with him ever. > warm too I see, though Zhi Ke is cool. But I was a > bit concerned about the > Zhi Ke supplied, looking for any source of a problem > - it was a bit of woody > stem rather than fruit - supposedly authenticated as > Zhi Ke. Does that ring a > bell with anyone? It can look like a bark or something due to processing. The shape will vary a lot, but the colour should be a kind of burnt brown/blue/black. It should feel a little brittle and be fairly light in weight. The ones I get also tend to be thin slices which are half moon in shape. > > Moistening the liver slowly is what comes to my > mind. > > Perhaps even just slowly slowy moistening kidney > yin > > and not doing anything with the liver. > Interesting thought. I was talking with someone > about Jiao Gu Lan, trying to > find out about it's TCM properties, as it is very Yes, jiaogulan is a very good herb. Can clear phlegm as well as what you mention. > if they felt he was hot or cold anywhere 'til you > just did. Yes, I feel he might overheat easily, though that may be limited to his liver syste only. To be clear, when suggesting tonifying his yin, I don't necessarily mean using cool herbs, I'm just talking baout yin tonics. Ever tried shi hu? > Nothing he has had addresses the kidneys, only > spleen eg Dang Shen, and there > have been many warm herbs - Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Shan > Zha, Sheng Jiang. Hmm, > that may well be the problem perhaps, I had not > checked them all before, > though I had raised the question. He may have a weak root, therefore unable to hold down rising yang, support digestive function and moisten the liver. Of course, giving him yin otnics poses a risk for digestion. I would suggest very low doses over a long period of time. I have a feeling that, somehow, the treatments on him have been trying to calm or soothe or otherwise 'control' the liver. Maybe the liver resents that. This is only my feeling though. I'm not familiar with his case. Maybe just give the liver what it needs - no insults (food for eg) and a good supply of blood. Give him the necessary materials for a healthy liver, let him act out, work it out of his system...if he is given the " tools " , eventually he may calm himself down...? >> Tried acupuncture with him? > No, no-one I trust round here. Maybe acupressure...do you massage him? Does he like it? > Thanks hugely Hugo. You're welcome. Plus For a better Internet experience http://www..co.uk/btoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2003 Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 --- jackiejataylor wrote: > Could anyone please explain to me the difference > between soothing and > pacifying the liver, and spreading qi or addressing > liver qi stagnation? Just very basic - - spreading qi involves the promotion of the liver's flowing and spreading function, the main point usually involves a type of relaxation / relief of qi congestion. chai hu / bo he / xiang fu / mei gui hua - qi stagnation involves qi which is not moving. getting it to move is the main point. might be due to weak qi / deficient blood / mild liver qi congestion over a long period / others. an energy tonic may be used in this case, or in combination w a blood tonic etc. dang shen / chi shao / sang ren / shan yao / da zao (boosting the kidneys in this case gives the patient enough " git up an' go " to overcome the depression that qi stagantion causes or is a result of. often we don't need to touch the liver) - soothing and pacifying usually involves an arrogant liver, or liver with rising yang or fire or some kind of heat which is insulting another organ. the idea here is to clear heat/fire (huang qin/lian), cool (shengdihuang/raw rehmannia), nourish yin (paeonia/baishao) and drain down (gardenia/zhizi) or even drag down (concha haliotidis/shijueming). Note to Jackie: you may want to try tonics like da zao and shan yao instead of something like bai zhu. What do you think? Hope the above is useful, Hugo Plus For a better Internet experience http://www..co.uk/btoffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.