discussing theory related to dogs

[Guest guest]

Hello; I have been studying TCM for a bit on my own, & would love to discuss

specific situations with those more experienced. I am primarily focusing on

treating dogs (my own). Just when I think I'm " getting it " , those nagging

questions come....

 

Is there an interest here for this type of discussion?

 

Deena

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/06/2003 7:17:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

barksalot writes:

 

<< Is there an interest here for this type of discussion? >>

 

Hi Deena,

 

I am very much interested in the subject of dogs and TCM.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

I have a million questions on treating horses I cannot find answers for

either, they seem to be so much more sensitive to the herbs than people and

no-one seems willing to help me work out the reasons for all the adverse

reactions I get.

 

For instance, the horse has just had three weeks on ranitidine for a gastric

ulcer, I start adding in less that half the human dose of a really mild

formula based on Xiang Fu and Peony with loads of digestive support to

prepare to transfer him over to herbs to complete the recovery - and I have

seen a disturbed, loose stool last night and bad ulcer symptoms this morning

- the exact opposite of what I was supposed to see, as far as I know. My

medical herbalist is prescribing, but was at a total loss how he could have

developed an ulcer on the formula he prescribed in the first place,

especially as he trained with one of the leading gastro-intestinal

consultants in China, and finds his protocol almost infallible with humans!

 

It would be such a shame to have to give up the use of TCM for the lack of

support.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/07/2003 5:04:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

jackiejataylor writes:

 

<< It would be such a shame to have to give up the use of TCM for the lack of

support.

 

Don't give up. I'm afraid that I know nothing about horses, yet from working

with dogs I have found that they react differently to herbs than people

primarily because of their need for a different acid/alkaline balance. A dog

needs to be slightly more acidic than a person and the herbs that are

alkalinizing (bitter, spicy) will often produce a stronger reaction. I can

use them, but I need to adjust for them somewhere. Horses are herbivores?

This to me might suggest that they need a more alkaline diet than a person

but I really have no clue. I would look into this aspect and see what you

can piece together based on the reactions you observe with different

treatments.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/04/2003 13:45:07 GMT Daylight Time, GDurst1774

writes:

 

 

> This to me might suggest that they need a more alkaline diet than a person

> but I really have no clue. I would look into this aspect and see what you

> can piece together based on the reactions you observe with different

> treatments.

>

 

You are right - and with this metabolic profile acidity seems to be a major

problem, though I had not considered the acidity of herbs used in a formula

to treat a gastric ulcer - just kind of assumed they would be the most

alkaline-producing? I know for a fact peony has the same property as the best

ulcer drug there is - so how on earth can his symptoms be worsened?! I still

have a horrible feeling something might have been misinterpreted in his

diagnosis - the one pattern I have notice is anything contraindicated in yin

deficiency seems to upset him, and yet yin deficiency has been 'ruled out' .

 

I'm going to get an email/phone/fax consult with the one horse TCM herbalist

in CA Ive been talking to on and off. I thought an experienced, china-trained

medical herbalist able to put his hands on him and feel his pulse would give

me the best chance of success, but it eludes me as yet.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/07/2003 9:01:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

jackiejataylor writes:

 

<< though I had not considered the acidity of herbs used in a formula

to treat a gastric ulcer - just kind of assumed they would be the most

alkaline-producing?

 

Sweet and sour are acid producing, bitter, spicy and saltly (naturally

occurring not refined salt) are alkaline producing. The sum total of all of

the tastes in a formula would determine whether the formula is more alkaline

or acid.

 

<< I know for a fact peony has the same property as the best ulcer drug there

is - so how on earth can his symptoms be worsened?!

<< the one pattern I have notice is anything contraindicated in yin

deficiency seems to upset him, and yet yin deficiency has been 'ruled out' .

 

Alkaline is Yang in the sense that alkaline is energy ... acid is substance.

Vegetables are considered Yin because they deplete substance ... but at the

same time they are Yang in the sense that they energize. They speed transit

.... move, cleanse, clear etc. One can't clear, cleanse or speed movement

with matter/ inertia (acid, substance). Nothing is ever always only Yin or

Yang, it all depends on how each piece of the puzzle relates to the other

pieces. So .. Yin deficiency does not need to be present technically for

" anything that is contraindicated in Yin Deficiency " to upset him, if he is

too alkaline.

 

Biggest clue is energy level. Too much energy (hyperactivity) is too

alkaline ... lethargy is too acid.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/07/2003 1:10:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

GDurst1774 writes:

 

<< Sweet and sour are acid producing, bitter, spicy and saltly (naturally

occurring not refined salt) are alkaline producing. >>

 

Whoops, I'm sorry ... I believe salty is acid forming. I was thinking about

salty foods that have a high mineral content like seaweeds. Minerals are

alkaline ... protein and fats are acid. I suspect that salt by itself is

acidic (generally very high in beings with alot of substance/matter) ... yet

it can change when that naturally occurring salt is combined in a food or

herb with a high mineral content.

 

In any event, I am not completely sure about the salty taste. There is also

alot of conflicting information about certain sour foods like lemons and

vinegar being alkaline ... so sour is most likely much like salt ... it

depends. I believe the sugar content plays a role. The more sour (less

sweet) a sour food is ... the less acid producing it is, but I am not

convinced that it makes it " alkaline " forming.

 

I welcome others insight regarding some of these questions!

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 07/04/2003 21:40:43 GMT Daylight Time, GDurst1774

writes:

 

 

> Whoops, I'm sorry ... I believe salty is acid forming. I was thinking about

> salty foods that have a high mineral content like seaweeds. Minerals are

> alkaline ... protein and fats are acid.

 

I am not sure I understand all of this - but minerals in the normal 'secular'

run of things can be acid or alkaline. Carbonates and oxides tend to alkalise

whereas sulphates and phosphates tend to acidify. The ulcer (if that's what

it is) fully manifested when I ran out of magnesium oxide, an alkalising

mineral, and used a chelate for a few days. When we realised what was going

on, I added cal carb as well as mg oxide, and that stopped his symptoms

immediately, but at too high a level to sustain we thought.

 

I also can't make sense of the lethargy vs hyperactive. This horse used to be

really hyperactive, had been for years - but that stopped instantly when he

was put on antacid minerals??!

 

I'm getting a bit wound up about this - my herbalist has just abandoned us as

he cannot work out what is going on and therefore does not feel competant to

treat the horse any more, which I quite understand. At the same time, the

horse did not respond fully to the antiulcer drug Ranitidine, or kept

relapsing into symptoms anyway, which the vet says is not normal, so now he

is unsure what is going on too. The drug course has finished, so now I am

left with no 'treatment' of any kind, just antacid minerals.

 

Can anyone tell me if there is any reason of balance or something I could not

remove the liver herbs (which seem to upset the horses feet every time) and

try using the rest of the latest formula for one last attempt? That would be:

 

Bai Shao 10g

Bai Zhu 10g - maybe cut down?

Chen Pi 5g

Shan Zha 6g

Gan Cao 4g

Ginger - two slices in decoction

Mei Gui Hua 5g ???

Xiang Fu 6g - remove

 

I only administered one eigth of this per day!

 

The formula which was too much for him, and set the scene for the ulcer to

arise was

 

Dang Shen - Codonopsis - 20%

Bai Zhu - Atractylodes - 20%

Chen Pi - Citrus - 5%

Xiao Hui Xiang - Fennel seed - 5%

Mai Ya - Germinate rice - 10%

Gu Ya - Germinated barley - 10%

Shan Zha - Hawthorn berry - 5%

Fu Ling - Poria locus - 20%

Gan Cao - licorice - 5%

 

As far as I can see that might have been too warming, and too yang? He

appeared over-stimulated somehow on it.

 

I have requested a consultancy with a TCM herbalist in CA who does a lot of

horse treatment, owns horses herself etc. I sent over the full case history,

but am waiting to hear an opinion.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/08/2003 12:34:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jackiejataylor writes:

 

<< I am not sure I understand all of this - but minerals in the normal

'secular'

run of things can be acid or alkaline. Carbonates and oxides tend to

alkalise

whereas sulphates and phosphates tend to acidify.

 

You are correct and my apologies. I was working off of a list that was

comparing minerals with protein and fat. In general, minerals are alkaline as

compared with protein and fat but some minerals are acidic when compared with

other minerals. Phosphorus, sulfur and iodine (there might be one more) are

acidic ... minerals compared to minerals.

 

<< I also can't make sense of the lethargy vs hyperactive. This horse used

to be

really hyperactive, had been for years - but that stopped instantly when he

was put on antacid minerals??!

 

This would need to be compared with other signs and symptoms.

Alkaline/energy can be pushed to the extreme of exhaustion. Alkaline is

energy/movement and dry (Yang) but it can also be cold (Yin). Nothing is

ever always one way or another, it all depends on how it relates to what you

are comparing it to. As energy and dryness increases, heat builds to what we

think of when we think Yang, but Yang need not necessarily be hot. Acid is

inertia/substance and wet (Yin). If the horse started with a dry tongue and

it stayed dry or became dryer with a lowered energy level after giving him

antacid minerals, I would suspect exhaustion and too alkaline. If the horse

had a wet tongue prior to the minerals and then ended up with a tongue that

was more normal afterward (more color, moist but not wet), then I would

suspect that he had been too acidic and the minerals were on target. Use the

major signs as your guide.

 

<< I'm getting a bit wound up about this - my herbalist has just abandoned

us as

he cannot work out what is going on and therefore does not feel competant to

treat the horse any more, which I quite understand.

 

The last thing I want to do is make anything harder for you, I suppose my

intent was to try and encourage you to look closer at the basics as a whole

(the diet, circumstances that might be creating emotional upset, the major

signs: tongue, pulse, energy level etc) rather than focusing on one or

individual aspects (Liver, ulcer). I would have to agree with the following:

 

 

" Is it just me or are we being too intent upon herbs? I was taught that while

herbs are definitely important, that they can be overdosed with poor

consequences. If you are prescribing herbs without first giving multi

treatments and concentrating on pulses and test points, you might be doing it

wrong. Most ailments can be adjusted without herbs. "

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/04/2003 19:54:37 GMT Daylight Time, GDurst1774

writes:

 

 

> This would need to be compared with other signs and symptoms.

> Alkaline/energy can be pushed to the extreme of exhaustion. Alkaline is

> energy/movement and dry (Yang) but it can also be cold (Yin). Nothing is

> ever always one way or another, it all depends on how it relates to what

> you

> are comparing it to. As energy and dryness increases, heat builds to what

> we

> think of when we think Yang, but Yang need not necessarily be hot. Acid

> is

> inertia/substance and wet (Yin).

 

Thank you, I'll have to ponder on this.

 

If the horse started with a dry tongue and

> it stayed dry or became dryer with a lowered energy level after giving him

> antacid minerals, I would suspect exhaustion and too alkaline. If the

> horse

> had a wet tongue prior to the minerals and then ended up with a tongue that

> was more normal afterward (more color, moist but not wet), then I would

> suspect that he had been too acidic and the minerals were on target. Use

> the

> major signs as your guide.

 

He has always had a dry mouth, but horse's tongues seem to vary much less

than humans, probably even pets. They always look pale pink - paler when they

are anaemic maybe, but never red. Sometimes their gums get a yellowish hue,

or mauve just before you have to euthanise them. I asked my vet about tongue

coatings, and he has only really noticed the odd horse has a very slippery

tongue, most of the rest seem to be much of a muchness. I should do some

observation, see if i can discern variation.

 

>

> The last thing I want to do is make anything harder for you, I suppose my

> intent was to try and encourage you to look closer at the basics as a whole

> (the diet, circumstances that might be creating emotional upset,

>

>

 

That I have done, do do - to the nth degree. No problem there.

 

 

the major

> signs: tongue, pulse, energy level etc) rather than focusing on one or

>

 

 

I would agree, but having tried a TCM vet and a medical herbalist who can

apparently read the signs, we have thus far fallen down when it comes to

prescription. I have tied SIX professionally presribed formula's thus far -

not one could the horse take. The first two were complete 'overkill' I am

told (Chai Hu Qing Gan Tang, Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang), and the vet refused to

believe my report of the adverse responses. the herbalist felt no sign of

liver stanation in his pulse after I treated him for two further months, but

he was still a bit lethargic. After 3 week on a codonopsis-atractylodes he

was getting in a real state, and developed a gastric ulcer a few days later.

His vascular system still could not take could not take second herbalists

formula bupleurum and peony etc, and nor the last one with cyperi instead.

 

So I really don't know what else to do other than study the minutae, and try

to work out why he cannot take the very herbs his condition dictates he

needs? To my mind it has to be that some minor but very important issue that

has not been correctly understood - stomach hotter or colder than realised,

liver yin more delicate than perceived. Something - I know not what, but all

that seems left to me is a process of elimination.

 

My vague grasp of the principles and my intuition alone lead me to guess

that any additional 'pressure' on the liver at all, from Chai Hu's rather

forceful approach, or from qi tonics adding to the burden of dispersal placed

on it, aggravate it, and the stress goes straight to the vascular system, the

head, or attacks the stomach. That's all I have.

 

I did have aVERY helpful discussion recently whenre someone suggested a step

by step approach, protectin kidneys, yin, and keeping liver soothed,

supporting circulation might be appropriate. That feels right the more I

think about it.

 

At any rate, so far so good - I removed all the liver herbs for now, cut the

qi tonic in half, doubled the crataegus - and he can take it fine. The ulcer

drug ran out yesterday morning - I HAD to do something to help him! So far

no ulcer symptoms, no digital pulse, and a pretty quiet horse.

 

Tonight I shall add in a couple of rose buds, and if he is OK on those over

the next few days, start to add in the xiang fu.

 

If anyone can 'see' anything in what I am doing, help me do better, or help

me understand in any way I will be pathetically grateful - as always!!

 

In the end it does not surprise me that this horse turned out to be

complicated or difficult to treat in TCM too - he's been baffling top class

equine specialist vets his entire life. I finally found one who will simply

back me up, help me sort through the research and try to apply that which is

relevant.

 

I'll get there, with a little help from generous folk like you good people on

here.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/09/2003 3:15:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jackiejataylor writes:

 

<< I'll get there >>

 

Had to laugh at this .... it seems to be my motto as well and I constantly

find myself saying it. Trying to find my dog's balance has been extremely

baffling, he can go from one extreme to the next in a moment. All that I

have learned as a result of the persistence to understand has made for a very

rocky journey, but one that I wouldn't give up for the world. The lessons

learned throughout can be applied everywhere I look.

 

Have you tried color therapy? I am only starting to utilize this now using

foods, but so far it looks very promising, along with fun.

 

Hang in there ... you will indeed get there if you quietly and gently persist.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/04/2003 12:15:08 GMT Daylight Time, GDurst1774

writes:

 

 

> Hang in there ... you will indeed get there if you quietly and gently

> persist.

>

 

Thanks Lynn. I'm not done with TCM yet - only thing I know for sure has the

power to reduce his insulin and get his physical energy up!

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/10/2003 3:33:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmoeller18 writes:

 

<< using color therapy within the food used in meals! >>

 

Hi Jeff ... what a nice thing to say. Thankyou, but this was not my idea,

color therapy applied to food has been utilized by many others. It's fun and

eating becomes an adventure ... give it a whirl!

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn, that is an amazing idea, using color therapy

within the food used in meals!

Peace, Jeff

 

--- GDurst1774 wrote:

> Have you tried color therapy? I am only starting to

> utilize this now using

> foods, but so far it looks very promising, along

> with fun.

 

 

=====

Jeffrey E. Moeller

http://www.gbronline.com/jeffmoeller

 

Join !

DNAEnergyHealing

GoldenAgeProducts

AlternativeHealingMinnesota

 

 

 

Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more

http://tax.

[Guest guest]

> Hi Jeff ... what a nice thing to say. Thankyou, but this was not my idea,

> color therapy applied to food has been utilized by many others. It's fun

and

> eating becomes an adventure ...

 

LOL, not much good for horses - 'Would you like emerald green today - or

perhaps a little forest green with your lime green?'

 

Sorry <g>

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Do not send me any more emails!

Rosita

-

jackie

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, April 10, 2003 6:48 PM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] discussing theory related to dogs

 

 

 

> Hi Jeff ... what a nice thing to say. Thankyou, but this was not my idea,

> color therapy applied to food has been utilized by many others. It's fun

and

> eating becomes an adventure ...

 

LOL, not much good for horses - 'Would you like emerald green today - or

perhaps a little forest green with your lime green?'

 

Sorry <g>

 

Jackie

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- jackiejataylor wrote:

 

> Dang Shen - Codonopsis - 20%

> Bai Zhu - Atractylodes - 20%

> Chen Pi - Citrus - 5%

> Xiao Hui Xiang - Fennel seed - 5%

> Mai Ya - Germinate rice - 10%

> Gu Ya - Germinated barley - 10%

> Shan Zha - Hawthorn berry - 5%

> Fu Ling - Poria locus - 20%

> Gan Cao - licorice - 5%

>

> As far as I can see that might have been too

> warming, and too yang?

 

Could be, also consider that the chen pi can be hard

on a hot or yin-deficient stomach...too acrid. Phps

same for xiaohuixiang - why was that one being used?

 

See you,

Hugo

 

 

Plus

For a better Internet experience

http://www..co.uk/btoffer

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 04/10/2003 6:45:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jackie writes:

 

<< LOL, not much good for horses - 'Would you like emerald green today - or

perhaps a little forest green with your lime green?'

 

I agree that the notion sounds simplistic and it would be much more difficult

to utilize with an animal that has a such a limited diet. However, color is

another manifestation (different vibrations and speeds of energy) of the

inherent intelligence of a plant, that can be employed very effectively when

understood. All greens are not the same. There will be hues, tones, shades

etc that suggest different actions.

 

At the most basic level, yellows and reds are Yang colors, greens and blues

are Yin colors. Light, bright colors are more Yang, dark colors are Yin.

Lime green would impart more Yang and forest green would impart more Yin.

Many plants have reds, pinks and purples as part of their genetic " blueprint "

as well, depending on whether or not they flower, what color the flowers

are, the time of year and climate they grow in ... on and on.

 

I suppose the simplicity of it ... is exactly what has attracted me to it.

It is just my personal view that treatment does not necessarily need to be

complicated to be effective. It seems to me that the more complicated

something is ... the greater the chance of being wrong.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

> I agree that the notion sounds simplistic and it would be much more

difficult

> to utilize with an animal that has a such a limited diet. However, color

is

> another manifestation (different vibrations and speeds of energy) of the

> inherent intelligence of a plant, that can be employed very effectively

when

> understood. All greens are not the same.

 

Sorry, it was very late at night and I was being very flippant!

 

> At the most basic level, yellows and reds are Yang colors, greens and

blues

> are Yin colors. Light, bright colors are more Yang, dark colors are Yin.

 

Makes perfect sense.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> Hi Jeff ... what a nice thing to say. Thankyou, but this was not

my idea,

> color therapy applied to food has been utilized by many others.

It's fun and

> eating becomes an adventure ... give it a whirl!

 

There is a book out in the U.S. that goes into how the color of

various foods relate to the compounds which are in them. Sorry,

can't remember the title, I read it last year. I think I reviewed it

in a post on here about a year ago. Try searching for " blueberries "

or " carotene " and see if either of those turn it up.

 

The most well-known example of the color of a food being related to

its composition is yellow fruits and veggies being loaded with beta-

carotene. The deeper the yellow color, the more loaded the fruit or

vegetable is.

 

Different classes of compounds not only result in different colors

but the compounds have different healing properties within the body.

Foods that are green - in particular a deep, rich green - supply

particular substances that are needed by the body. Foods that are

red supply others. Likewise for blue.

 

TCM has recognized for centuries that the color of a herb or food

often is related to what it does in the body. For example, many

black foods and herbs tend to target the Kidneys and contain

something they need. (The correspondences aren't 100%, but there is a

tendency for the color of a food or herb to reveal a lot about what

it will do in the body.)

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> Could be, also consider that the chen pi can be hard

> on a hot or yin-deficient stomach...too acrid. Phps

> same for xiaohuixiang - why was that one being used?

 

I don't know, the formulas were never explained. The online MM says -soothes

liver Qi, warms kidney, expels cold - alleviate pain -regulates & harmonize

stomach Qi.

 

I think he must have felt the stomach was cold judging by all the warm

gastric herbs, he only mentioned food stagnation and something about enzymes

in Mai Ya or Gu ya, which were in the original formula too.

 

Deficient and cold, or food or blood stagnation are all listed as causing

gastric ulcers I see - I thought it would be a hot condition, but apparently

not.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

--- jackie <jackie wrote:

> > Could be, also consider that the chen pi can be

> hard

> > on a hot or yin-deficient stomach...too acrid.

> Phps

> > same for xiaohuixiang - why was that one being

> used?

 

> I don't know, the formulas were never explained. The

> online MM says -soothes

> liver Qi, warms kidney, expels cold - alleviate pain

> -regulates & harmonize stomach Qi.

 

expels cold because it has a hot property, and it

alleviates cold pain.

 

> I think he must have felt the stomach was cold

> judging by all the warm

> gastric herbs,

 

looks like it.

 

> Deficient and cold, or food or blood stagnation are

> all listed as causing

> gastric ulcers I see - I thought it would be a hot

> condition, but apparently

> not.

 

Like anything else, it can be due to warm, hot, cool

cold, obstruction, excess, deficiency etc and

combinations.

If he has a cold stomach though, why would he have

thirst? (you did say he had thirst?)

 

Bye,

Hugo

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

Plus

For a better Internet experience

http://www..co.uk/btoffer

[Guest guest]

> If he has a cold stomach though, why would he have

> thirst? (you did say he had thirst?)

 

 

No, he drinks too little really, so I guess that ties in? I also don't think

some signs apply to horses well - their stools for instance are rarely

altered, probably because most of their fibre digestion in the long slow

hindgut is done for them by gut microflora. If you upset the microflora

enough to alter the stools, you could be in big trouble - eg toxemia can

result, with colic and laminitis following..

 

Jackie