Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 I have been treating blood stasis for years now when there were no major classic blood stasis signs. It sort of happened by accident because sometimes when I took out the needles from a patient it had a thick dark black blood drop or 2. I thought to myself even hthough pulse is not rough etc it looks like blood stasis!!Then I used blood movers eg hong hua and then my patients and myself noticed improvements . For years I thought many people have this sort of sub clinical blood stasis , perhaps because of sedentry lifestyle ,bad diet etc and it was becoming a new pattern in the west.Eventually other people like Will Mclean (Australia) & Todd started writing about it. I still have a hard time convincing students at college that some of their patients have blood stasis w/o purple tongues or stabbing pains. But to answer the question , how do I pick it ? Now I always ask for any history of falls etc and also if treatment is not progressing according to diagnosis I suspect blood diagnosis. dang gui wei , hong hua and ji xue teng are always low on supply in my clinic. Heiko > How do folks dx blood stasis? I think blood stasis occurs in most, if > not all, enduring disease. Yet I do not think it always presents with > sharp pain. Are purple distended veins under the tongue or spider nevi > or choppy pulse or dusky tongue body alone enough to make this dx? What > else? > > -- > > Director > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote: I still have a hard > time convincing students at college that some of their patients have blood stasis w/o purple tongues or stabbing pains. > Heiko that is my issue. I make a point with my students that dx have to be justified by a preponderance of s/s, not merely etiological factors. Yet I also have this empirical experience of using bloodmovers in most enduring disease and am also well aware that modern chinese research emphasizes this method in many chronic illnesses such as autoimmune. hepatic, diabetes, etc. that are not classically defined as blood stasis when considered as bi syndrome, jaundice and wasting thirst. Yan de xin's book on blood stasis and aging goes into this, but he still suggests that one must have some confirming s/s. I have been arguing with a student all week about this RA patient who had massive improvement in one week on a full strength formula that emphasized blood stasis. The student kept saying the pain is not sharp and she wanted to delete the blood movers,but the patient had widespread spider nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life. Our basic theory teachers are letting us clinical supervisors down. I teach a basic class (herbs 1), but I think those teaching the basics should be for the very well read. Unfortunately,the basics are often left to recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know acupuncture but not herbology. It is nothing short of an indictment of our educational system when most of the upper level students I worked with at 3 schools and are just about to graduate have not the slightest clue that blood stasis is one of the keys to treating chronic illness. I also teach an advanced class and give case study exams. I often make the blood stasis component of dx pretty obvious and yet half the students forget to add herbs for blood stasis to their modified formulas despite my ad nauseum stress on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 on 2/28/01 9:06 AM, at wrote: > Heiko > > that is my issue. I make a point with my students that dx have to be > justified by a preponderance of s/s, not merely etiological factors. > Yet I also have this empirical experience of using bloodmovers in most > enduring disease and am also well aware that modern chinese research > emphasizes this method in many chronic illnesses such as autoimmune. > hepatic, diabetes, etc. that are not classically defined as blood > stasis when considered as bi syndrome, jaundice and wasting thirst. > > Yan de xin's book on blood stasis and aging goes into this, but he > still suggests that one must have some confirming s/s. I have been > arguing with a student all week about this RA patient who had massive > improvement in one week on a full strength formula that emphasized > blood stasis. The student kept saying the pain is not sharp and she > wanted to delete the blood movers,but the patient had widespread spider > nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life. Our basic > theory teachers are letting us clinical supervisors down. I teach a > basic class (herbs 1), but I think those teaching the basics should be > for the very well read. Unfortunately,the basics are often left to > recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know > acupuncture but not herbology. It is nothing short of an indictment of > our educational system when most of the upper level students I worked > with at 3 schools and are just about to graduate have not the slightest > clue that blood stasis is one of the keys to treating chronic illness. > I also teach an advanced class and give case study exams. I often make > the blood stasis component of dx pretty obvious and yet half the > students forget to add herbs for blood stasis to their modified > formulas despite my ad nauseum stress on this. > I couldn't agree with you more, especially as someone who has concentrated on teaching CM theory for the past several years. A vast majority of my own patients who I have diagnosed with blood stasis do not have sharp pain, or even necessarily spider veins. Textbooks that use this as a basis for diagnosis are talking more about acute conditions, not chronic ones. As we know from studying the theories of Li Dong-yuan and Zhu Dan-xi, chronic diseases are largely identified through mutually engendering patterns, and that qi, blood and phlegm stasis can engender each other. As the qi transformation is damaged or encumbered, normal flow of blood and qi becomes blocked, leading to qi, phlegm and or blood stasis over time. I often see a combination of choppy and slippery, or choppy and soggy pulses in many of my patients. In herbal prescriptions, I often include ingredients to disinhibit dampness, resolve phlegm, and/or harmonize the blood. I find that milder ingredients, such as chuan xiong, dang gui, chi shao, dan shen and tao ren are better tolerated and can be used over longer periods than some of the more powerful ingredients, such as the various insects. One of my favorite prescriptions is xue fu zhu yu tang/Dispel Stasis in the Mansion of Blood Decoction, and its variants designed by Wang Qing-ren. I feel Wang Qing-ren's work in blood stasis is very important in modern practice, with the chronic intractable diseases that we see. Another factor is that we have an ageing boomer population, and blood stasis is a factor. The narrow definition of blood stasis mentioned in some texts is counter-productive in modern practice, and is causing many students and practitioners to miss the mark. This is unfortunate. I hope students will respect your judgement in clinic, you are right on target here. One thing you might consider is demonstrating to students the choppy pulse, as it is quite prevalent, and many students don't have a clue as to what a choppy pulse feels like. It goes without saying that cancer patients almost always have both phlegm and blood stasis issues, and that they should always be paid attention to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 In Chip Chace's Blue Poppy distance learning course on treating respiratory diseases with herbs, the criteria for making the blood stasis dx was laid out pretty well. The reference article for his information is Chamberlain Shelah, and Dillon Andrew, trans., Journal of the American College of TCM, vol.7, no.3, 1989:23 The information is organized into principle indications, other indications and lab findings. Principle indications include such things as vascular abnormalities, dull purple tongue, static macules, sublingual varices, and fixed stangulating pain. Other indications include hypertrophic scaly skin and numbness. And lab finding include microcirculatory disorders and increased blood coagulability. The diagnosis is made if there are 2 principle indications, or once principle and 2 lab findings or 2 other indications, or 2 other indications and one positive lab finding. I haven't listed all of the indications for each category as I am not sure how far to go with respect to the copywrite. I have few patients over the age of 20 who don't have sx to fill the criteria. It is an article worth checking out since including quickening blood as a treatment principle can make or break your treatment success. Kristin - < cha Wednesday, February 28, 2001 2:56 AM blood stasis > How do folks dx blood stasis? I think blood stasis occurs in most, if > not all, enduring disease. Yet I do not think it always presents with > sharp pain. Are purple distended veins under the tongue or spider nevi > or choppy pulse or dusky tongue body alone enough to make this dx? What > else? > > -- > > Director > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Z'ev wrote: > One thing you might consider is demonstrating to students the choppy pulse, as > it is quite prevalent, and many students don't have a clue as to what a > choppy pulse feels like. -- I agree with all that is being said about blood stasis. I would only add that choppy/se is not the only quality that can show up with blood stasis, and that blood stasis is not the only interpretation for choppy. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 on 2/28/01 10:54 AM, rorykerr at rorykerr wrote: > Z'ev wrote: > >> One thing you might consider is demonstrating to > students the choppy pulse, as >> it is quite prevalent, and many students don't have a > clue as to what a >> choppy pulse feels like. > -- > > I agree with all that is being said about blood stasis. > I would only add that choppy/se is not the only quality > that can show up with blood stasis, and that blood > stasis is not the only interpretation for choppy. > > Rory Yes, I agree 100 %. Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 on 2/28/01 2:56 AM, Todd at wrote: > How do folks dx blood stasis? I think blood stasis occurs in most, if > not all, enduring disease. Yet I do not think it always presents with > sharp pain. Are purple distended veins under the tongue or spider nevi > or choppy pulse or dusky tongue body alone enough to make this dx? What > else? > > -- > > > Choppy pulses are a huge indicator. as is a dusky tongue. I was taught in China that any chronic disease always develops some component of blood stasis. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 I have a question for the group that I often present to my pulse diagnosis and case review students. How do you define a choppy pulse? This is an experiment and I invite you all post your notions without referance to texts or other posts on the subject till an aggregate of opinions are in. (Rory and others privy to this conversation in other forums please hold your response till results arrive) Thank you, Will Morris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 I often see blood stasis at the lips before anywhere else Alon - Cara Frank Wednesday, February 28, 2001 12:20 PM Re: blood stasis on 2/28/01 2:56 AM, Todd at wrote:> How do folks dx blood stasis? I think blood stasis occurs in most, if> not all, enduring disease. Yet I do not think it always presents with> sharp pain. Are purple distended veins under the tongue or spider nevi> or choppy pulse or dusky tongue body alone enough to make this dx? What> else?> > --> > > Choppy pulses are a huge indicator. as is a dusky tongue. I was taught inChina that any chronic disease always develops some component of bloodstasis. CaraChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 In a message dated 2/28/01 9:09:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes: << Unfortunately,the basics are often left to recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know acupuncture but not herbology. >> Dear not in our school! Our basics are taught by those with 20 years of experience! Our Dean of Clinical Education teaches two intro courses, because we get public students who want to try out a class, and we need to put really inspiring teachers in there. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 but the patient had widespread spider nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life >>>>>That is plenty of avoidance of Blood stasis Alon - Wednesday, February 28, 2001 9:06 AM Re: blood stasis , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote:I still have a hard> time convincing students at college that some of their patients have blood stasis w/o purple tongues or stabbing pains.> Heikothat is my issue. I make a point with my students that dx have to be justified by a preponderance of s/s, not merely etiological factors. Yet I also have this empirical experience of using bloodmovers in most enduring disease and am also well aware that modern chinese research emphasizes this method in many chronic illnesses such as autoimmune. hepatic, diabetes, etc. that are not classically defined as blood stasis when considered as bi syndrome, jaundice and wasting thirst.Yan de xin's book on blood stasis and aging goes into this, but he still suggests that one must have some confirming s/s. I have been arguing with a student all week about this RA patient who had massive improvement in one week on a full strength formula that emphasized blood stasis. The student kept saying the pain is not sharp and she wanted to delete the blood movers,but the patient had widespread spider nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life. Our basic theory teachers are letting us clinical supervisors down. I teach a basic class (herbs 1), but I think those teaching the basics should be for the very well read. Unfortunately,the basics are often left to recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know acupuncture but not herbology. It is nothing short of an indictment of our educational system when most of the upper level students I worked with at 3 schools and are just about to graduate have not the slightest clue that blood stasis is one of the keys to treating chronic illness. I also teach an advanced class and give case study exams. I often make the blood stasis component of dx pretty obvious and yet half the students forget to add herbs for blood stasis to their modified formulas despite my ad nauseum stress on this.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 widespread spider nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life >>>>this is more than sufficient for Blood stasis diagnosis Alon - Wednesday, February 28, 2001 9:06 AM Re: blood stasis , Heiko Lade <heiko@l...> wrote:I still have a hard> time convincing students at college that some of their patients have blood stasis w/o purple tongues or stabbing pains.> Heikothat is my issue. I make a point with my students that dx have to be justified by a preponderance of s/s, not merely etiological factors. Yet I also have this empirical experience of using bloodmovers in most enduring disease and am also well aware that modern chinese research emphasizes this method in many chronic illnesses such as autoimmune. hepatic, diabetes, etc. that are not classically defined as blood stasis when considered as bi syndrome, jaundice and wasting thirst.Yan de xin's book on blood stasis and aging goes into this, but he still suggests that one must have some confirming s/s. I have been arguing with a student all week about this RA patient who had massive improvement in one week on a full strength formula that emphasized blood stasis. The student kept saying the pain is not sharp and she wanted to delete the blood movers,but the patient had widespread spider nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life. Our basic theory teachers are letting us clinical supervisors down. I teach a basic class (herbs 1), but I think those teaching the basics should be for the very well read. Unfortunately,the basics are often left to recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know acupuncture but not herbology. It is nothing short of an indictment of our educational system when most of the upper level students I worked with at 3 schools and are just about to graduate have not the slightest clue that blood stasis is one of the keys to treating chronic illness. I also teach an advanced class and give case study exams. I often make the blood stasis component of dx pretty obvious and yet half the students forget to add herbs for blood stasis to their modified formulas despite my ad nauseum stress on this.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 I like to divide cases as blood stagnation in patients w/out pain and stasis with pain Alon - Wednesday, February 28, 2001 9:33 AM Re: Re: blood stasis on 2/28/01 9:06 AM, at wrote:> Heiko> > that is my issue. I make a point with my students that dx have to be> justified by a preponderance of s/s, not merely etiological factors.> Yet I also have this empirical experience of using bloodmovers in most> enduring disease and am also well aware that modern chinese research> emphasizes this method in many chronic illnesses such as autoimmune.> hepatic, diabetes, etc. that are not classically defined as blood> stasis when considered as bi syndrome, jaundice and wasting thirst.> > Yan de xin's book on blood stasis and aging goes into this, but he> still suggests that one must have some confirming s/s. I have been> arguing with a student all week about this RA patient who had massive> improvement in one week on a full strength formula that emphasized> blood stasis. The student kept saying the pain is not sharp and she> wanted to delete the blood movers,but the patient had widespread spider> nevi and is 60 and had much physical trauma in her life. Our basic> theory teachers are letting us clinical supervisors down. I teach a> basic class (herbs 1), but I think those teaching the basics should be> for the very well read. Unfortunately,the basics are often left to> recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know> acupuncture but not herbology. It is nothing short of an indictment of> our educational system when most of the upper level students I worked> with at 3 schools and are just about to graduate have not the slightest> clue that blood stasis is one of the keys to treating chronic illness.> I also teach an advanced class and give case study exams. I often make> the blood stasis component of dx pretty obvious and yet half the> students forget to add herbs for blood stasis to their modified> formulas despite my ad nauseum stress on this.> I couldn't agree with you more, especially as someone who hasconcentrated on teaching CM theory for the past several years. A vastmajority of my own patients who I have diagnosed with blood stasis do nothave sharp pain, or even necessarily spider veins. Textbooks that use thisas a basis for diagnosis are talking more about acute conditions, notchronic ones. As we know from studying the theories of Li Dong-yuan and Zhu Dan-xi,chronic diseases are largely identified through mutually engenderingpatterns, and that qi, blood and phlegm stasis can engender each other. Asthe qi transformation is damaged or encumbered, normal flow of blood and qibecomes blocked, leading to qi, phlegm and or blood stasis over time. I often see a combination of choppy and slippery, or choppy and soggypulses in many of my patients. In herbal prescriptions, I often includeingredients to disinhibit dampness, resolve phlegm, and/or harmonize theblood. I find that milder ingredients, such as chuan xiong, dang gui, chishao, dan shen and tao ren are better tolerated and can be used over longerperiods than some of the more powerful ingredients, such as the variousinsects. One of my favorite prescriptions is xue fu zhu yu tang/DispelStasis in the Mansion of Blood Decoction, and its variants designed by WangQing-ren. I feel Wang Qing-ren's work in blood stasis is very important in modernpractice, with the chronic intractable diseases that we see. Another factoris that we have an ageing boomer population, and blood stasis is a factor.The narrow definition of blood stasis mentioned in some texts iscounter-productive in modern practice, and is causing many students andpractitioners to miss the mark. This is unfortunate. I hope students willrespect your judgement in clinic, you are right on target here. Onething you might consider is demonstrating to students the choppy pulse, asit is quite prevalent, and many students don't have a clue as to what achoppy pulse feels like. It goes without saying that cancer patients almost always have bothphlegm and blood stasis issues, and that they should always be paidattention to. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 Slippery pulse is quite common w/ any stasis as it causes turbulence Alon - rorykerr Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:54 AM Re: Re: blood stasis Z'ev wrote:> One thing you might consider is demonstrating to students the choppy pulse, as> it is quite prevalent, and many students don't have a clue as to what a> choppy pulse feels like.--I agree with all that is being said about blood stasis. I would only add that choppy/se is not the only quality that can show up with blood stasis, and that blood stasis is not the only interpretation for choppy.RoryChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 on 2/28/01 7:45 PM, juliej8 at juliej8 wrote: > In a message dated 2/28/01 9:09:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, > writes: > > << Unfortunately,the basics are often left to > recent grads who know giovanni and nothing else or those who know > acupuncture but not herbology. >> > > Dear not in our school! Our basics are taught by those with 20 years of > experience! Our Dean of Clinical Education teaches two intro courses, because > we get public students who want to try out a class, and we need to put really > inspiring teachers in there. Julie, 20 years of experience, really? I don't know too many people in this country with that much experience. . ..maybe a small percentage of Chinese practitioners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 Turbulence? -Jason alonmarcus [alonmarcus] Wednesday, February 28, 2001 4:16 PM To: Re: Re: blood stasis Slippery pulse is quite common w/ any stasis as it causes turbulence Alon ----- Original Message ----- rorykerr Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:54 AM Re: Re: blood stasis Z'ev wrote: > One thing you might consider is demonstrating to students the choppy pulse, as > it is quite prevalent, and many students don't have a clue as to what a > choppy pulse feels like. -- I agree with all that is being said about blood stasis. I would only add that choppy/se is not the only quality that can show up with blood stasis, and that blood stasis is not the only interpretation for choppy. Rory The Chinese Herb Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 In a message dated 2/28/01 11:00:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenberg writes: Julie, 20 years of experience, really? I don't know too many people in this country with that much experience. . ..maybe a small percentage of Chinese practitioners. Yes, there are some. People who were educated in the 70s and 80s...we have such people. Our pres and vp were educated in the early 80s -- OK, we know the education then was not what it is now, but this still represents 20 years of clinical experience. And they do teach the basics in our school: theory, Taoism, etc. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 Other sources for good information on the pattern discrimination of blood stasis are Yan De-xin's Aging & Blood Stasis (Blue Poppy) and The Concept & Treatment of Blood Stasis in TCM (Blue Poppy). Bob kwisgirda wrote: > In Chip Chace's Blue Poppy distance learning course on treating respiratory > diseases with herbs, the criteria for making the blood stasis dx was laid > out pretty well. The reference article for his information is > Chamberlain Shelah, and Dillon Andrew, trans., Journal of the American > College of TCM, vol.7, no.3, 1989:23 > The information is organized into principle indications, other indications > and lab findings. Principle indications include such things as vascular > abnormalities, dull purple tongue, static macules, sublingual varices, and > fixed stangulating pain. Other indications include hypertrophic scaly skin > and numbness. And lab finding include microcirculatory disorders and > increased blood coagulability. The diagnosis is made if there are 2 > principle indications, or once principle and 2 lab findings or 2 other > indications, or 2 other indications and one positive lab finding. > I haven't listed all of the indications for each category as I am not sure > how far to go with respect to the copywrite. > I have few patients over the age of 20 who don't have sx to fill the > criteria. It is an article worth checking out since including quickening > blood as a treatment principle can make or break your treatment success. > > Kristin > > - < > cha > Wednesday, February 28, 2001 2:56 AM > blood stasis > > > How do folks dx blood stasis? I think blood stasis occurs in most, if > > not all, enduring disease. Yet I do not think it always presents with > > sharp pain. Are purple distended veins under the tongue or spider nevi > > or choppy pulse or dusky tongue body alone enough to make this dx? What > > else? > > > > -- > > > > Director > > Chinese Herbal Medicine > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 Julie, I have no idea whether your Pres and VP are knowledgable or not. So this reply has nothing to do with them. I would just like to say that, in my experience, one can have 20 or more years clinical experience and still not know Chinese medical theory expertly. For my, the expert knowledge of Chinese medical theory mostly hinges upon familiarity with this body of theory in its original Chinese. Further, because of the forgiving nature of acupuncture, one can also be a crackjack practitioner in terms of treatment outcomes without necessarily knowing much or correct theory as it is taught in China. Therefore, my first question of any teacher teaching Chinese medicine in English is, "Do you have personal direct access to the Chinese medical literature in Chinese?" For me, that's what separates the sheep from the goats. Again, please be clear that I am only talking about this in the abstract. I don't know who your teachers are. They may be absolutely fabulous and may read Chinese far, far better than I. Sincerely, Bob juliej8 wrote: In a message dated 2/28/01 11:00:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenberg writes: Julie, 20 years of experience, really? I don't know too many people in this country with that much experience. . ..maybe a small percentage of Chinese practitioners. Yes, there are some. People who were educated in the 70s and 80s...we have such people. Our pres and vp were educated in the early 80s -- OK, we know the education then was not what it is now, but this still represents 20 years of clinical experience. And they do teach the basics in our school: theory, Taoism, etc. Julie Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 WMorris116 wrote: > > I have a question for the group that I often present to my pulse > diagnosis and case review students. How do you define a choppy pulse? There are two forms of the choppy pulse. 1) The amplitude of the wave is high, then low, then medium... keeps changing. 2) The wave form itself has ridges. The sine wave becomes jagged all the way up and then down. This is better illustrated with a drawing. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 Group, This may seem like nit-picking, but I have a problem with the wording of Al's kind of response. It seems to me that, all too often, people put out information on this site without referencing it. There are established norms in academic discussions such as these, at least within other professions, and I'd like to suggest we adopt these as they help to keep things clear, both intellectual and in terms of intellectual property. Therefore, if one is responding with insights or information gathered from their own experience, we all preface our remarks with a statement of that. If something comes from some other source, then I believe we should source that. That doesn't mean we have to footnote our sources, but at least minimally identify them. A day or so ago, someone on the list made some statements about Chinese medicine and gu worm theory, presenting these as fact. However, as far as I know, what the respondent was presenting was research and opinions published by Heiner Fruehauf. Likewise, Al has said that the choppy pulse has two forms. Ok, according to whom? Al presents this as a statement of fact. However, what he says is, at the least, debatable. Neither description is what the majority of Chinese texts on the pulse say. All I'm suggesting here is a little more circumspection in our discourse. Just a few more meta-words to take the hard, absolutist edges off things. As someone who has had to go out and actually study public-speaking because I was so bad at it, I find that just a few extra words make a huge difference in communciation and especially the tone of communication. Bob Al Stone wrote: > WMorris116 wrote: > > > > I have a question for the group that I often present to my pulse > > diagnosis and case review students. How do you define a choppy pulse? > > There are two forms of the choppy pulse. > > 1) The amplitude of the wave is high, then low, then medium... keeps changing. > > 2) The wave form itself has ridges. The sine wave becomes jagged all > the way up and then down. This is better illustrated with a drawing. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 Will asked: .. How do you define a choppy pulse? To me the term choppy (se-and I think we should, esp. w/ the pulses, use also the pinyin) was problematic at first. But the 3-5 description clarified the knife scraping on bamboo for me. I can't be certain that this was what was meant, but i visualize the knife scraping the bamboo(not in the angle like whittling but just scraping the edge sort of perpendicular to it) so as to form a rough, jumping feeling along the bamboo surface rather than gliding. The term 'rough' is, of course, also used, and apparently is Wiseman's choice now. It denotes this bumpy feeling. The 3-5 description indicates that it's kind of irregular, sometimes 3 per breath, sometimes 5, so that it's also irregular in speed so that it seems to maybe have 2 quicks, then a pause, then some normal beats, then a quick, etc. in a pattern that's not regular. Bob Flaws has described it as 'uncomfortable', and i feel the reason this is so is that it's not clear at first what it is, as it seems to have qualities of other pulse types, like scattered, seems slow, then fast, may vary in force, but doesn't just skip beats, but seems to occasionally feel like it's trying to change the beat/tempo in some odd syncopation. It's been additionally defined as fine, and this does seem to be a quality present w/ this type of irregularity. So it's usually associated w/ deficiency - excuse me, vacuity(blood and qi), though it could be combined with a full pattern. The primary implication is stagnation, whatever the cause. I hope i haven't overelaborated the original intent of the pulse image, but that's what it has come to feel like to me. Also forgive me if i haven't " defined " the choppy/rough pulse, but described it as i came to understand the import of the traditional descriptions. I'm interested in seeing others' remarks. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 al, my feeling is is that some of teach and write, some of us have busy successful practices...some of us mix it up and do a little of many things...you obviously have a wonderful sense of humor that probably brings a lot of levity to the treatment process. its obvious that there are scholars among us...take what you can use from the conversations and delete the rest. i have often felt the tone of a few contributors to be a tad condescending, bordering on rude...but that is the exception not the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 >>>Therefore, my first question of any teacher teaching Chinese medicine in English is, " Do you have personal direct access to the Chinese medical literature in Chinese? " For me, that's what separates the sheep from the goats. <<< Jeez. Must be nice to read Chinese. Here I am a failure at teaching and TCM simply because I'm limited to English. Your point is well taken, Bob, I hope to add Chinese language to my skill set someday, but can we please have a little latitude for those of us who have to rely on other skills to do our jobs? I don't read chinese as well as I read my patients. Is that okay? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2001 Report Share Posted March 1, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I often see blood stasis at the lips before anywhere else How does this manifest? I would like to know what blood stasis seen at the lips looks like (I'm a student and haver been lurking here for quite a long time). Thanks. -Jude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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