Guest guest Posted March 16, 2003 Report Share Posted March 16, 2003 I'm a tad confused about the associations for the elements. Wood is associated with both the liver and anger, yet they seem to have opposite natures. Anger seems congestive, the liver spreads qi. Sour as a flavor is astringent, and shouting seems like focused force. Yet my understanding of the element is that it is expanding in nature, similar to the effect of the liver.... Earth is associated with the spleen and worry, yet worry knots the qi, and the spleen has a separating effect if i understand correctly. Earth is associated with dampness, yet one with a strong spleen would have less problems with this?? Metal is associated with the lungs and grief, yet grief seems as though it is of an outward releasing nature, while if I understand correctly, the lungs function is to condensce qi. It seems as though I have a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere. I'm sure all these quesions seem quite silly, but I would appreciate any advice. Mbanu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2003 Report Share Posted March 16, 2003 Chinese Traditional Medicine , " walmart_hurts " <jcc@c...> wrote: > I'm a tad confused about the associations for the elements. Wood is > associated with both the liver and anger, yet they seem to have > opposite natures. Anger seems congestive, the liver spreads qi. Sour *snip* Well, it seems as though part of my confusion stems from an improper grasp on the zangfu organs. Sorry for the spam. I'll go off and study now. Mbanu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2003 Report Share Posted March 16, 2003 Hi Mbanu, there is a lot more to five elements then most of us learn and study in TCM. If you are interested in 5E, you might want to read Worsley or Lonny Jerret, there is also a web-group called 5E_acup that is five element based. You might be able to find what you are looking for in their archives. Claudia. - walmart_hurts chinesehealing Sunday, March 16, 2003 6:49 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Association confusion I'm a tad confused about the associations for the elements. Wood is associated with both the liver and anger, yet they seem to have opposite natures. Anger seems congestive, the liver spreads qi. Sour as a flavor is astringent, and shouting seems like focused force. Yet my understanding of the element is that it is expanding in nature, similar to the effect of the liver.... Earth is associated with the spleen and worry, yet worry knots the qi, and the spleen has a separating effect if i understand correctly. Earth is associated with dampness, yet one with a strong spleen would have less problems with this?? Metal is associated with the lungs and grief, yet grief seems as though it is of an outward releasing nature, while if I understand correctly, the lungs function is to condensce qi. It seems as though I have a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere. I'm sure all these quesions seem quite silly, but I would appreciate any advice. Mbanu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2003 Report Share Posted March 17, 2003 Hi Mbanu, this may be somewhat off the mark, but, as I read your post, it seemed to make the following sense to me; the organs have a particular action or 'work the Qi' each in a particular way, and the emotions cited, the pathological ones, they act opposite to the organs natural energetic function, hence the unbalances and diseases...Anyway, these emotions are not the NATURAL POSITIVE emotions associated with each organ, but are the ones that act negatively on them. marcos > walmart_hurts > I'm a tad confused about the associations for the elements. >Wood is associated with both the liver and anger, yet they seem >to have opposite natures. Anger seems congestive, the liver >spreads qi. Sour as a flavor is astringent, and shouting seems >like focused force. Yet my understanding of the element is that >it is expanding in nature, similar to the effect of the >liver.... > Earth is associated with the spleen and worry, yet worry knots >the qi, and the spleen has a separating effect if i understand >correctly. Earth is associated with dampness, yet one with a >strong spleen would have less problems with this?? > Metal is associated with the lungs and grief, yet grief seems as >though it is of an outward releasing nature, while if I >understand correctly, the lungs function is to condensce qi. >It seems as though I have a fundamental misunderstanding >somewhere. I'm sure all these quesions seem quite silly, but I >would appreciate any advice. > > Mbanu _____________________ Busca O serviço de busca mais completo da Internet. O que você pensar o encontra. http://br.busca./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2003 Report Share Posted March 17, 2003 In a message dated 17/03/2003 23:07:28 GMT Standard Time, alstone writes: > The flavor is the Yin portion of an herb's > energetics. The Yang is its temperature. The Yin will work toward the > benefit of the organ, the Yang for its function. Ah now this is a very useful bit of information, thank you. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2003 Report Share Posted March 17, 2003 walmart_hurts wrote: > > I'm a tad confused about the associations for the elements. Wood is > associated with both the liver and anger, yet they seem to have > opposite natures. Anger seems congestive, the liver spreads qi. Sour > as a flavor is astringent, and shouting seems like focused force. Yet > my understanding of the element is that it is expanding in nature, > similar to the effect of the liver.... Anger makes the Qi rise and sometimes be expressed outwardly such as the throwing of breakable kitchen utensils. Sour astringes and directs the qi and fluids inward. The flavor is the Yin portion of an herb's energetics. The Yang is its temperature. The Yin will work toward the benefit of the organ, the Yang for its function. The sour tastes softens a hardened or dry liver, which will then be able to better perform its funciton of spraying qi outwardly. Shouting is the sound of anger. This is self-evident. > Earth is associated with the spleen and worry, yet worry knots the qi, > and the spleen has a separating effect if i understand correctly. > Earth is associated with dampness, yet one with a strong spleen would > have less problems with this?? Worry is not actually a term that is universally accepted in regards to the Spleen. I think of " over thinking " which, if there is a touch of fear in there, can certainly look like worry or anxiety. Still, there is some agreement between the digestive functions of the Earth element and the attempt to " digest " or process information when you're obsessing or worrying about something. That's how I see the " thinking " portion of the Earth element, as an attempt to digest information. A strong spleen would be less sensitive to dampness in the environment or the diet, yes. > Metal is associated with the lungs and grief, yet grief seems as > though it is of an outward releasing nature, while if I understand > correctly, the lungs function is to condensce qi. The way we percieve emotions is, I believe strongly determined by our culture as well as personal proclivities. To me, grief is a " downer " . It cause fatigue and a general inability to lift the spirits. The metal element is associated with harvest and a downward internally directed directionality. Again, like the Liver, the pungent flavor which has a dispersing directionality opens up the lungs, keeps them ventilated, even though its directionality is the opposite from the Lung's harvesting inward function. > It seems as though I have a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere. > I'm sure all these quesions seem quite silly, but I would appreciate > any advice. Not very silly. The Marx brothers are silly. These are good questions. : ) Why a duck? (A referrence to a Marx brothers movie in which the term " viaduct " was misunderstood...) -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Thank you very much for the advice. I am doing my studies independently, and it helps having someone willing to answer questions and check my understanding. I often think that I should enroll in a TCM college, but I haven't finished my undergraduate degree, and the things I am most interested in (theory, diet, and lifestyle) seem to be the areas that are least practical in the terms of me repaying for a degree. I don't know, but it also seems like these areas don't have quite as many experienced teachers, compared to, say, the fields of acupuncture or herbalism?? > Anger makes the Qi rise and sometimes be expressed outwardly such as the throwing of breakable kitchen utensils. Hehehe. Can you recommend any good source material on the effects of the emotions on the qi?? I have lots of questions, and I don't want to spam the list and the helpful folks with stuff I can find out on my own. For instance, why does anger make qi rise?? Is the qi forced upward, (like squeezing toothpaste out of a tube?) or does it rise naturally (like a balloon?) I'm probably looking at this funny again. > Sour astringes and directs the qi and fluids inward. The flavor is > the Yin portion of an herb's energetics. The Yang is its > temperature. The Yin will work toward the benefit of the organ, the > Yang for its function. I didn't know that. Thank you for taking the time to mention it. > The sour tastes softens a hardened or dry > liver, which will then be able to better perform its > funciton of spraying qi outwardly. That's really clever! I hadn't thought of that. I suppose it makes sense though. There are so many dynamics, even when they're just further interactions between Yin and Yang. > Worry is not actually a term that is universally accepted in regards > to the Spleen. I think of " over thinking " which, if there is a > touch of fear in there, can certainly look like worry or anxiety. > Still, there is some agreement between the digestive functions of > the Earth element and the attempt to " digest " or process information > when you're obsessing or worrying about something. That's how I see > the " thinking " portion of the Earth element, as an attempt to digest > information. I guess worry isn't the best term... I've been " stressing my Spleen " about this for a bit now. It occured to me that what the Spleen seems to do is normalize, like you said. It takes unfamiliar things and makes them familiar, whether they be thoughts, or chewed up food goo, or environments. I speculated that thoughts might be " digested " kinda like food. They come in a big glob of undigested dampness. Stable, but unfamiliar, and undifferentiated. The Spleen then must seperate the undigested ideas (the Spleen-stressing part) and clarify them into concepts that fit the existing stable framework. (Kinda like the way that food is turned to qi, and then condensced into jing and such) That's actually why I was wondering about the relationship between the spleen and pericardium. I read a quote " The Pericardium is the ambassador and from it joy and happiness derive. " I have also heard it described as a sort of " court joker " . So my guess was that it kinda did what the spleen tried to counteract; make things more exciting, interesting and mysterious, as opposed to " normalizing " things. Does that seem right??? I thought perhaps mental innovation stems from an interaction between the spleen and pericardium?? My understanding is still quite poor unfortunately, but they seem to interact in an important way *somehow*, and I was interested in learning more. (Or if I was even remotely correct to begin with. ) > The way we percieve emotions is, I believe strongly determined by > our culture as well as personal proclivities. To me, grief is a > " downer " . It cause fatigue and a general inability to lift the > spirits. The metal element is associated with harvest and a > downward internally directed directionality. I guess it is kinda subjective. I had been thinking from the direction as grieving as a form of letting go, such as one needs to do during the mourning process to quit mourning. I guess that if doing something *removes* grief, it can't *be* grief. Sorry about that. I guess I have to look into it more. > Why a duck? (A referrence to a Marx brothers movie in which the > term " viaduct " was misunderstood...) Why not a duck?? Thanks again. Mbanu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 walmart_hurts wrote: > > Anger makes the Qi rise and sometimes be expressed outwardly such as > the throwing of breakable kitchen utensils. > > Hehehe. Can you recommend any good source material on the effects > of the emotions on the qi?? Well, there's that French teacher who wrote a book on the topic. I find her writing to be a little intellectual for my pea brain, but many people like her. I can't remember the name of the book, Yves something is the authoress. > I have lots of questions, and I don't want > to spam the list and the helpful folks with stuff I can find out on my > own. For instance, why does anger make qi rise?? Is the qi forced > upward, (like squeezing toothpaste out of a tube?) or does it rise > naturally (like a balloon?) I'm probably looking at this funny again. You can come up with whatever analogy seems right. Just remember that ultimately things can be described in terms of yin and yang. Yang goes up, yin goes down. Yang is energizing and exciting, while yin is relaxing and sedating. Which category would you put anger into? Yang, of course. : ) In my scanty understanding of the Chinese language, anger is sometimes referred to as " rising qi " . So, if you make me angry, they'll say " you make my Qi rise " . Then they'll throw breakable kitchen utensils... By the way, fear causes the Qi to descend, firstly to the Kidneys, then later out the lower orifices if it is too intense. So, a little taboo that causes a bit of fear can stimulate the Kidneys (i.e. something nasty for the libido) or too much fear can cause the qi to fall out the lower orifices as in shi**ing or pi**ing in your pants. Pardon my wording, these are American jargons that simply apply here. > I read a quote " The Pericardium is > the ambassador and from it joy and happiness derive. " I have also > heard it described as a sort of " court joker " . So my guess was that it > kinda did what the spleen tried to counteract; make things more > exciting, interesting and mysterious, as opposed to " normalizing " > things. Does that seem right??? Perhaps, though I see the Pericardium as the " Prime Minister " that takes the commands of the Heart such as " Off with his head " and waters it down to " Send him to jail for 20 years! " And it goes the other direction too, the Pericardium will water down things a bit so it doesn't cause the monarch to go off the deep end when things don't go our way. Although everything is connected in one way or another, the Pericardium's most potent relationships are with the Heart by virtue of the Fire element and the Liver by virtue of the Jue Yin relationship of the channels. I like your take on the Spleen! > I guess it is kinda subjective. I had been thinking from the direction > as grieving as a form of letting go, such as one needs to do during > the mourning process to quit mourning. I guess that if doing something > *removes* grief, it can't *be* grief. Sorry about that. I guess I have > to look into it more. I agree, grief is the process of letting go. And what do the lungs do? Attach and then detach. Breath in, then out. What's the other metal element organ do? (Hint: that's the Large Intestine). You betcha the LI is all about letting go. I had a girlfriend dump me once. Went through a bout of depression. Woke up one day, felt better. I guess I was over her. That day, I had two MONSTER poops. I let go. : ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 > Well, there's that French teacher who wrote a book on the topic. I > find her writing to be a little intellectual for my pea brain, but > many people like her. I can't remember the name of the book, Yves > something is the authoress. Ooh! Do you mean that de Vallee girl?? I've heard of her books, but never given them a look. I guess I ought to. Thanks! > I agree, grief is the process of letting go. And what do the lungs > do? Attach and then detach. Breath in, then out. What's the other > metal element organ do? (Hint: that's the Large Intestine). You > betcha the LI is all about letting go. Aaaah. That makes some sense. I hadn't factored the Yang organs in yet... Too much complexity for me to deal with right now... I'll keep it in mind though. (Or maybe I'll just look at the Lung/Large Intestine pair). > I had a girlfriend dump me once. Went through a bout of depression. > Woke up one day, felt better. I guess I was over her. That day, I > had two MONSTER poops. I let go. : ) > " Confucious say, 'Man on toilet high on pot.' " Thanks for the advice. Mbanu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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