Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Jackie, Thanks for the other references! We are now swimming in biochem... out of my depth for sure- understanding some MEDLINE abstracts takes me hours... searching for reference info etc. This would be a good discussion to take to Chinese Herbal Medicine discussion list. But some thoughts: In the stomach prostaglandins help decrease acid production and help to increase the mucous protective barrier so that stomach cells are not damaged by acid. If I remember right from pharmacology, COX2 has to do with inflam throughout the body, COX1 with Stomach- any drug that inhibits COX2 (so far) also affects COX1... I think there is a new one that isn't supposed to... >From the first study (Huang Qin + Chai Hu): " Saikosaponin a, b1 and d potently stimulated PGE2 release, while saikosaponin b2 and c moderately stimulated PGE2 release. " Doesn't that sound like it's stimulating prostaglandins (PG) and not inhibiting them? COX2 inhibitors block the pathway by which PG precursors are produced. This says it moderately stimulated a type of PG. BTW it might seem trite but since we are talking about isolated parts of one plant in an herb formula, I wonder if any of the other parts they're not studing might moderate any stomach-irritating effect IF there is one. We don't know that either way, nor do we have the part of the story that led them to isolate these parts of Chai Hu and not the others...? The opaque one: " The effects of these compounds on swelling and other inflammatory parameters are described. In screening for in vitro effects of saikosaponins on cellular systems generating cyclooxygenase (COX) and lipoxygenase (LOX) metabolites, we observed that most saikosaponins showed a significant effect. The action is more marked on LOX metabolite LTC4. Our data support the inhibition of arachidonic acid metabolism as one of the biochemical mechanisms that might be the rationale for the putative antiphlogistic activity of these saikosaponins. " Antiphlogistic=Reducing inflammation or fever; anti-inflammatory. Tried to find info on LOX- not the bagel kind... " Since aspirin inhibits cyclooxygenase, the arachidonic acid released from membrane phospholipids may be shunted into the 5-lipoxygenase (LOX) pathway, which form leukotrienes which cause bronchoconstriction, edema, and chemotaxis. " COX and LOX are 2 of 3 ways that arachadonic acid is converted to eicosanoids... COX and LOX are enzyme systems. In the study above, they were simply trying to find out if the anti-inflam effects of saikosaponins involved COX or LOX. They found more of an effect on LOX than COX, so that leads away from the Stomach. In fact, it seems like an initial line can be drawn between COX and LOX non-general effects to say COX affects ST and LOX affects L... just a speculation. A good quick resource on COX and LOX http://medlib.med.utah.edu/block2/biochem/Rechsteiner/Rechsteiner%20Notes/MC R4.html B Brian Benjamin Carter Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine Columnist, Acupuncture Today The PULSE of Oriental Medicine: Alternative Medicine You Can Understand http://www.pulsemed.org/ The General Public's Guide to Chinese Medicine since 1999... 8 Experts, 100+ Articles, 115,000+ readers.... Our free e-zine BEING WELL keeps you up to date with the latest greatest PULSE articles. Sign up NOW. Send a blank email to: beingwellnewsletter- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 This would be a good discussion to take > to Chinese Herbal Medicine discussion list. Where is that? > In the stomach prostaglandins help decrease acid production and help to > increase > the mucous protective barrier so that stomach cells are not damaged by acid. PGE2 do, yes. > > If I remember right from pharmacology, COX2 has to do with inflam throughout > the body, COX1 with Stomach- Not per se - just 'housekeeping' one site described it as, rather than 'inflammation'. any drug that inhibits COX2 (so far) also > affects COX1... I think there is a new one that isn't supposed to... Yes, that's why most anti-inflammatories cause ulcers. > Doesn't that sound like it's stimulating prostaglandins (PG) and not > inhibiting them? Yes, but that was tumour cells in vitro - bit of a leap to conclude it protects stomachs!! It may do - I just don't know. > BTW it might seem trite but since we are talking about isolated parts of one > plant in an herb formula, I wonder if any of the other parts they're not > studing might moderate any stomach-irritating effect IF there is one. This too I don't know - the other anti-ulcer action described for bupleurum was a polysaccharide anti-oxident, but if that only had a local effect, it would not last as long as any systemic anti- inflammatory effect. Peony was also prescribed, and that inhibits PGE2 in uterine tissue. I think I can only judge by the reputation of the herb in such a case - is it known as an anti-inflammatory that might be potentially damaging to an active ulcer? It seems bupleurum is? According to the USDA phyto-chemical database, which i suddenly remembered, it also stimulates ACTH/cortisol - steroidal anti- inflammatories. Maybe helpful in some conditions - but this horse has a high cortisol already, and cortisol also increases gastric acidity - so I just get nervous again. > effects of saikosaponins on cellular systems generating cyclooxygenase (COX) > and lipoxygenase (LOX) metabolites, we observed that most saikosaponins > showed a significant effect. The action is more marked on LOX metabolite > LTC4. > > Antiphlogistic=Reducing inflammation or fever; anti-inflammatory. > > Tried to find info on LOX- not the bagel kind... They are pro-inflammatory it seems - so that is a plus - it inhibits pro-inflammatory LOX pathways more than COX pathways, which includes the good guys - but it still has a 'significant effect' on those. > In fact, it seems like an initial line can be drawn between COX and LOX I don't think so, from what I have gathered - I think they are both in all tissues, it's just we want some of the COX ones in the stomach particularly, and I think more so for a horse than a human. That also worries me - Humans only produce acid when they eat, so would only need a beneficial effect when they eat. Horses need a LACK of detrimental effect all the time because they secrete acid all the time. I may be totally wrong - it may be that the balance in the end is that it controls LOX inflammation in the ulcer, whilst promoting PGE2 far more than it inhibits COX1, and the overall net effect is good. But I have a horse who was in such pain that we thought he was having seizures - who needs it, IF another effective herb for liver stagnation can be found? I don't know enough to know if bupleurum is 'the only way'. Anyway, I've asked Michael to think about it - all I can do is express my concern, I just want to make sure someone is actually thinking about this kind of thing - whatever has gone wrong up 'til know has gone quite badly wrong so far! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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