Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Just FYI at this point: T & T is Transportation and Transformation- Thanks - I just about remember all the functions, but I didn't recognise your abbreviation! > Ya, it is hard to interpret the behavior of a horse- unless maybe you're > a " horse whisperer " ? ;-) LOL, I do all that stuff - and it's still hard!! > > Another solution to excess acidity after eating is > Transformation Enzymes' Gastro product. Not sure > what the cost of dosing a horse would be though. How > much more do they weigh than humans? Just a little...670kg! Trouble is because they produce acid 24/7, you'd have to treat every 2 hrs to really have an effect with some things. Horses don't have a gallbladder you see, they just pump out acid all the time, so their protection mechanisms are vital. > > As for chaihu and prostaglandins- > > The NSAIDS (ibuprofen, etc.) interrupt the COX-2 pathway. Yes, the end result of which is the inhibition of prostaglandins apparently: " Because of its involvement in inflammation, [prostaglandin E2] PGE2 is the key indicator of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs efficacy via inhibition of COX-1 and COX-2 " > > The following MEDLINE references are about a different form of bupleurum but > may shed some light- That's one problem - I fell foul of this with the info that poria cocus has a direct sedative effect - Fu Ling does not Michael said, it is the centre of the fungus which has a different chinese name that does! > There were also 4 references on Bupl. scorzonerifolium, the specific kind > that is chai hu... only phytochemical info, nothing about its effects on > humans. But if you then look up the active constituent: Antagonism of saikosaponin-induced prostaglandin E2 release by baicalein in C6 rat glioma cells. There are several Kampo medicines (Chinese herbal medicines) containing both Bupleuri Radix and Scutellariae Radix, which are used for the treatment of inflammation. Saikosaponins are derived from Bupleuri Radix, and baicalein is from Scutellariae Radix. The present study was undertaken to investigate the pharmacological interaction of saikosaponin b1 and baicalein in prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) release from C6 rat glioma cells in vitro. Saikosaponin a, b1 and d potently stimulated PGE2 release, while saikosaponin b2 and c moderately stimulated PGE2 release. > > So I wonder where you heard that about chai hu, and what that person's > I just searched under bupleurum on Google, and if you search under 'bupleurum prostaglandins' many references come up. Maybe they are all wrong? One paper says: " The medicinal species of Bupleurum in Shanxi, Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai provinces and Xingjiang Autonornous Region have been investigated. It is shown that there are twenty one medicinal species in the genus, of which nine are main stream species " Another: [Dynamic variation of saikosaponin contents] Du X, Jiang C, Liu M. Pharmacy Department, Heilongjiang College of Traditional , Harbin. In this paper both the cultivated and wild Bupleurum chinense and B. scorzonerifolium from northeast China of different growing periods and ages were analyzed for the contents of saikosaponins a and d by HPLC and total saikosaponins by spectrophotometry. The results indicated that the saikosaponin content of B. chinense was higher than that of B. scorzonerifolium, and that the saikosaponin contents of the cultivated species were higher than or almost equal to those of the wild ones. So it seems all the commonly used Bupleurums used as Chai Hu have saikosaponins, which have a positive effect, as does a polysacharride in bupleurum fulcatum at least - who knows if that is in the others. The fly in the ointment is this extract in one paper on saikosaponins: " The effects of these compounds on swelling and other inflammatory parameters are described. In screening for in vitro effects of saikosaponins on cellular systems generating cyclooxygenase (COX) and lipoxygenase (LOX) metabolites, we observed that most saikosaponins showed a significant effect. The action is more marked on LOX metabolite LTC4. Our data support the inhibition of arachidonic acid metabolism as one of the biochemical mechanisms that might be the rationale for the putative antiphlogistic activity of these saikosaponins. " I can't translate this and am not sure what the end result is - but where did the prostglandin reference come from? It is possible the saponins have both properties but who knows which is more potent? If there is another herb that has the advantages without the disadvantages, I'd rather use it. I don't know what to think really - I'll ask Michael if he knows for sure the effect of the chai hu he buys on folk with gastric ulcers, or if he can prescribe an alternative if there is any doubt. But horses may need the protaglandin protection more than people because of their constant production of acid. I'm not sure he welcomes such questioning - but I have to after 3 prescriptions (counting the first two which came from the TCM vet) all of which made the horse infinately worse! Thanks again, Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Jackie wrote: > Yes the last formula addressed Spleen Qi and food stagnation well, but > without liver support - but what is T & T?? Just FYI at this point: T & T is Transportation and Transformation- The Stomach 'rots and ripens'/decomposes 'grain and water'/food. The Spleen then extracts the essence of food and dispatches it to the other organs... this equals digestion, assimilation and distribution of nutrients (this is from Wiseman/Ellis' Fundamentals of .) > So we tested and I'm pretty sure I've confirmed that - there was a marked > improvement on the addition of a LOT of antacids. Ya, it is hard to interpret the behavior of a horse- unless maybe you're a " horse whisperer " ? ;-) Another solution to excess acidity after eating is Transformation Enzymes' Gastro product. Not sure what the cost of dosing a horse would be though. How much more do they weigh than humans? As for chaihu and prostaglandins- The NSAIDS (ibuprofen, etc.) interrupt the COX-2 pathway. That is not the only way to reduce inflammation. E.g. steroids like prednisone work through another pathway. Traditional sources say it may cause nausea and vomiting, CI in yin xu cough or Liv fire ascending to head. > I'm a little worried about using bupleurum because I have read it inhibits > protaglandin production, which inhibiiton causes gastric ulcers (that's why > NSAID's cause them). I don't know if anyone knows if that is so?? The following MEDLINE references are about a different form of bupleurum but may shed some light- searched on " bupleurum prostaglandin " , " bupleurum cox " , " bupleurum stomach " this one talks about anti-inflammatory actions, it does not talk about the pathway it uses- does not mention COX-2 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui ds=9763210 & dopt=Abstract These four talk about Bupl. healing gastric ulcers... the opposite effect you mentioned. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui ds=1682444 & dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui ds=11807976 & dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui ds=8103101 & dopt=Abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui ds=5389580 & dopt=Abstract There were also 4 references on Bupl. scorzonerifolium, the specific kind that is chai hu... only phytochemical info, nothing about its effects on humans. So I wonder where you heard that about chai hu, and what that person's references were? B Brian Benjamin Carter Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine Columnist, Acupuncture Today The PULSE of Oriental Medicine: Alternative Medicine You Can Understand http://www.pulsemed.org/ The General Public's Guide to Chinese Medicine since 1999... 8 Experts, 100+ Articles, 115,000+ readers.... Our free e-zine BEING WELL keeps you up to date with the latest greatest PULSE articles. Sign up NOW. Send a blank email to: beingwellnewsletter- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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