Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Hi Brian, > 2. Tonify Spleen qi and facilitate T & T > e.g. Bai Zhu/Ren Shen & Mu Xiang > 3. Perhaps add food stagnation herbs for digestion > e.g. depends on what he/she digests well > > Yes the last formula addressed Spleen Qi and food stagnation well, but without liver support - but what is T & T?? But, we have now confirmed a western diagnosis for the latest symptoms I think which helps clarify the situation. My vet came and observed him for over an hour, and felt that the spasms were not 100% had-to-be neurological in origin, but could have been a sort of reflex response to the pain of a gastric or duodenal ulcer. So we tested and I'm pretty sure I've confirmed that - there was a marked improvement on the addition of a LOT of antacids. So, backtracking from that - it appears we do not have liver wind but a stomach pathology, possibly related to liver 'provocation'. The last formula did not address the liver as the horse was asymptomatic in that sense when Michael saw him, on the ayurvedic liver/blood/cardio/digestive formula. Horse got very wound up on his TCM formula, because it supplied more Qi energy anyway, but also became very aggressive/irritable/liver and was immediately better back on ayurvedic formula. But that was also concentrate powders, and I have heard they do not agree with horses, and wonder if that in itself upset his stomach. He always has had a problem with acidity anyway (very common in horses, especially those too spleen deficient to be allowed ad lib access to food!) but it usually made him hyperactive - so when he was not hyper OR irritable/aggressive I thought both those were in control. Then, in addition to that, I ran out of some of his minerals that were antacid for a few days, and when I started seeing what I thought were neurological signs started going through a process of elimination, cutting out the very supplements he needed in case one of them was 'contaminated', and of course he just got worse and worse with the spasms, and started getting a bit hyper-reactive. He is now back on everything and though there is still a bit of an 'sharpness' to him I think that is more acid/stomach, because his stagnation/liver symptoms are still fairly well settled. So I don't think we have any liver wind, we may have had liver yang rising or liver attacking stomach (or both?) when he was on the TCM formula, but now I think we are mostly left with the after effects of that on the stomach. So, it seems we definately need to get a better balance on supporting/treating stomach, liver and spleen with the TCM. I'll get another new formula on that basis, fresh herbs to boil up and put through a blender this time. I'm a little worried about using bupleurum because I have read it inhibits protaglandin production, which inhibiiton causes gastric ulcers (that's why NSAID's cause them). I don't know if anyone knows if that is so?? It seems it is difficult to diagnose horses in TCM, especially when I had him looking so well and happy when Michael came, but hopefully this time he will have all the infomation he needs to formulate something that will suit him! Thanks Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Ya, I've asked around, and Sp xu can exacerbate Liver yin xu to lead to Liver yang rising... so that might fit the sxs better- I don't remember all your horse's sxs, but you might ask your herbalist to consider that- 1. Ton Liv yin and Anchor Liv Yang (try to avoid cloying herbs) e.g. Gou Qi Zi & Gou Teng 2. Tonify Spleen qi and facilitate T & T e.g. Bai Zhu/Ren Shen & Mu Xiang 3. Perhaps add food stagnation herbs for digestion e.g. depends on what he/she digests well Just some thoughts to add to your effort. B Brian Benjamin Carter Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine Columnist, Acupuncture Today The PULSE of Oriental Medicine: Alternative Medicine You Can Understand http://www.pulsemed.org/ The General Public's Guide to Chinese Medicine since 1999... 8 Experts, 100+ Articles, 115,000+ readers.... Our free e-zine BEING WELL keeps you up to date with the latest greatest PULSE articles. Sign up NOW. Send a blank email to: beingwellnewsletter- - <Chinese Traditional Medicine > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Saturday, March 08, 2003 2:00 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Digest Number 782 Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine ------ There are 9 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Fwd: Re: Psychoemotional points marcos lacerda <ishk18 2. Referral--Orange County " Jessica Klein " <jlklein 3. Re: Ling Chi " arnold gilbert " <arnoldge3 4. Re: Re: Questions on Placebos Hoang Ho <twomtns2002 5. Re: Liver wind Hoang Ho <twomtns2002 6. Re: Liver wind jackiejataylor 7. Re: Help needed mitchell shelford <mytchell37 8. Re: Referral--Orange County " Lisa Miller " <lisaleaky 9. Re: Need advice acugirlnyc ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Fri, 7 Mar 2003 09:43:32 -0300 (ART) marcos lacerda <ishk18 Fwd: Re: Psychoemotional points > Brian Carter > > Philippe adds that all wrist points treat psychoem. disorders- >I would bet then that the ankle pts do too... and ST41 which you >mentioned is also an ankle pt. Massage(tuina - shiatsu), on the ancient shu points; below the elbow and the knees, stimulate the connection between coupled meridians. Enhance the potential and circulation of the chi on the meridians. The penetration of chi in the meridians. Block penetration of the pathogenic energies(heat, wind, humidity, cold) and promote the dissolution and expulsion of the pathogenic factors already installed. Strengthens the Zhang-Fu. Massage around the wrist and ankles, where the tonification and source points are, strenghthens the Organs by the penetration of Source chi from the kidneys. That by itself would help many emotional problems which have a deficiency root; -like 'not wanting to go out of the door', or wanting to stay indoors all the time. Sometimes we don't see clear indications in traditional texts of psychoemotional effects, but we have to look at these the way a chinese (not a western-minded one though!) would look at it; TCM looks at the human being differently from the western man does, they don't separate psychic, emotional physical aspects the way we do, got to remember that and think of it in terms of Yin-Yang, the Five elements, generating-controlling cycles, etc... marcos _____________________ Busca O serviço de busca mais completo da Internet. O que você pensar o encontra. http://br.busca./ ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:05:52 -0600 " Jessica Klein " <jlklein Referral--Orange County I have a friend who is looking for a practitioner in Orange County (CA) who has experience with cancer or infectious diseases. She would like to work with a healer who has " strong intention. " She is presently hospitalized with inconclusive tests. She doesn't want to blindly pick someone from a website which matches practitioner to patient's zip codes, and so any personal referrals would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Jessica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Banana 5-7 pm? jackiejataylor wrote:. Liv qi yu-> Liver fire -> Liver wind I think there would already have to be substantial Liv qi yu and/or fire to create the wind. There could be co-morbid empty Liv heat which might mean there wouldn't have to be as much liver fire to create the wind. That would also predispose to Liv yang rising-> wind... I think it has to be something like that - that makes sense at some kind of subliminal level!. What I cannot understand is how the liver qi stagnation symptoms can be so much better with the development of liver wind symptoms! I've been trying to work it out in western terms too, and there has to be SERIOUS liver disease to get to that point - which no-one believes he has, he just looks too well, but which makes me really scared to try the new TCM prescription. The only thing left to try is to remove the ayurvedic liver tonic in case something toxic got in there - even so it should not be able to by-pass the liver and cause central nervous system symptoms, so we are all stumped. Vet's coming friday and we are going to do a full liver workup anyway, though there's never been the slightest abnormality before. Thanks jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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