Guest guest Posted February 28, 2003 Report Share Posted February 28, 2003 In a message dated 28/02/2003 18:55:29 GMT Standard Time, bbcarter writes: > Liv qi yu heat/fire is excess (repletion) heat > Liv yin xu heat is empty (vacuity) heat > > They are treated differently, with different herbs. Right. I see what you are saying - two different types of fire rather than merely two different causes for fire. > Of course I cannot accurately diagnose with just this, but let me show you > some possibilities just for fun... That's great for me - I realise no-one can diagnose over the net, but playing with ideas helps me understand the concepts better. > > irrit, anger, outbursts = liv excess, > but from liv fire or > liv yin xu with liv yang ascending? I think yin xu as a primary cause is doubtful, though as I understand it any fire will damage yin? Michael stood in front of this great hulking lump of a horse and smiled when I asked about the possibility of yin deficiency in general, though I guess it can be 'local'! Mind you, judging by the correlation to western medicine, Bob Flaws view on the rpgression of insulin resistance : " Instead of the premodern emphasis on dryness, heat, and yin vacuity which are common patterns after a patient has manifested the three polys of polydispsia, polyphasia, and polyuria, the emphasis is on liver depression, spleen vacuity, and damp or depressive heat. " slowed bowel movement=constipation could be a number of things: > heat from liv fire > dryness from liv yin xu > Sp qi xu from liv attacking sp (qi xu usually leads to diarrhea but > sometimes conversely > the qi is too xu to push the stool out) He is qi xu. I think horses bowel movements vary a lot less than human. > > abdominal discomfort=sp/st qi xu > but because of sp qi xu or > liv qi attacking sp/st? I think the former - he is functionally hypothyroid. > head jerking an hour after eating- complicated- > could be heat, or wind, or who knows why a horse would jerk its head? > could be due > to any kind of discomfort (here is where a veterinary specialist is needed). > an hour after eating is when the food is in the small intestine, no? Yes, and the vet (an excellent one) has no ideas - epilepsy or serious liver disease is about it in orthodox veterinary medicine. > > just because a nourish liv yin herb works doesn't mean you > can conclude liv yin xu without doubt- some things can work temporarily > at a branch level- calming, etc. Yes, that's why I want to press on with define the problem better. It is a cool formula overall, has blood tonic herbs and all sorts in it. > > But it's an indicator that would make me lean toward the liv yin xu with > liv yin ascending. You mean yang ascending I assume? I have looked at that, but it is impossible to discern in a horse who cannot tell me how his head feels! > > And speaking of the latter, > the liver can attack the sp if > 1. the liver is excess or > 2. the spleen is deficient I think we have both. I think the spleen might be the root because when the liver is settled by the ayurvedic formula, we still have deficient spleen function? > > which is why xiao yao san is brilliant- it deals with both. Right - it was suggested once by the TCM vet, but he did not prescribe it. The new formula is similar, though without Dang Gui, and unfortunately Fu Ling had a marked sedative effect on the horse last time so I have asked for that to be taken out this time. > > But hopefully his proces is actually not intuitive- in a systematic > medicine like > chinese herbology, there is a reason for every choice, whether tradition or > experience, and the prescriptions address treatment principles that come > directly from accurate diagnosis... Yes, for sure - you need that. But by intuition I mean an additional insight, that extra something. I don't know obviously, but when I suggested the possibility to others in the business who know him well they said they believed so too. Let's hope! He certainly has the academic knowledge judging by his impressive biog, he's something of a legend I think. Thanks - 2-D theory only really becomes 3-D when you discuss it or utilise it!! Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2003 Report Share Posted February 28, 2003 Liv qi yu heat/fire is excess (repletion) heat Liv yin xu heat is empty (vacuity) heat They are treated differently, with different herbs. > There is > irritability, anger and outbursts at its worst, a feeling of 'excess', > slowed bowel movement, abdominal discomfort, hypochondriac distention, and > now, just when the rest is beginning to calm down, head jerking spasms an > hour after eating in the morning. Just to confuse matters the only TCM herb > in the ayuvedic herbal formula that is settling him is Eclipta alba, which > nourishes liver yin. Of course I cannot accurately diagnose with just this, but let me show you some possibilities just for fun... irrit, anger, outbursts = liv excess, but from liv fire or liv yin xu with liv yang ascending? slowed bowel movement=constipation could be a number of things: heat from liv fire dryness from liv yin xu Sp qi xu from liv attacking sp (qi xu usually leads to diarrhea but sometimes conversely the qi is too xu to push the stool out) abdominal discomfort=sp/st qi xu but because of sp qi xu or liv qi attacking sp/st? hypochondriac = liver head jerking an hour after eating- complicated- could be heat, or wind, or who knows why a horse would jerk its head? could be due to any kind of discomfort (here is where a veterinary specialist is needed). an hour after eating is when the food is in the small intestine, no? just because a nourish liv yin herb works doesn't mean you can conclude liv yin xu without doubt- some things can work temporarily at a branch level- calming, etc. But it's an indicator that would make me lean toward the liv yin xu with liv yin ascending. But that doesn't exclude the possibility that there also is liv qi yu attacking the sp. And speaking of the latter, the liver can attack the sp if 1. the liver is excess or 2. the spleen is deficient which is why xiao yao san is brilliant- it deals with both. A simple solution would be to combine multiple liquid formulas, e.g. xiao yao san, tian ma gou teng yin, & chai hu shu gan san For raw, you could start with these as guiding rx's > Interesting. My medical herbalist writes from scratch and > I think does it partly intuitively too - but of course I wouldn't know how > near his formulas were to classic formulas anyway. It may seem intuitive if he has absorbed the lessons of the classics and written a lot of formulas... I hope one day to be able to get to the level of those guys who can see a pt and write a great formula for them in 10 minutes... but my teachers affirmed that if you're doing it write in the beginning, it is laborious and takes hours to write one formula! But hopefully his proces is actually not intuitive- in a systematic medicine like chinese herbology, there is a reason for every choice, whether tradition or experience, and the prescriptions address treatment principles that come directly from accurate diagnosis... On the other hand, what some beginners call 'intuition' is actually an excuse to act on half-formed thoughts and vague diagnoses. I am not inferring that that is what your herbalist is doing- Just want to throw up a side-note caution about using intuition as an excuse not to be precise. B Brian Benjamin Carter Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine Columnist, Acupuncture Today The PULSE of Oriental Medicine: Alternative Medicine You Can Understand http://www.pulsemed.org/ The General Public's Guide to Chinese Medicine since 1999... 8 Experts, 100+ Articles, 115,000+ readers.... Our free e-zine BEING WELL keeps you up to date with the latest greatest PULSE articles. Sign up NOW. Send a blank email to: beingwellnewsletter- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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