Re:Is there anything which might substitute for Ma Huang in Cold/Flu Formulas

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/15/2003 7:39:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Chinese Traditional Medicine writes:

 

 

> Sat, 15 Feb 2003 04:14:58 +0000 (GMT)

> Hugo Ramiro <subincor writes:

 

 

Out of curiosity, have you mentioned the above plus

any other symptoms which you associate with the ma

huang? He should be modifying the formula according to

symptoms.

 

well, thxs, bye,

Hugo

 

Reply to Hugo:

 

Hi Hugo,

 

Well, yes I have mentioned these symptoms in the past to him (although not

this time), but he seems to feel that the herbs he adds to the formula with

Ma Huang will mitigate the negative properties of Ma Huang. Unfortunately

this is not true, at least not for me. As I said he is a very old fashioned

practitioner, training in the old country, so to speak, through an

apprenticeship and practices the very classical style of acupuncture and

herbs which he claims has been lost to modern day TCM (the Chinese having

killed off so many of these practitioners during the two big revolutions).

Still, times change, there is no lock on knowledge, but this does not seem to

be his style of practicing, admitting to any more " modern " ideas, especially

Western medical diagnosis and its cautions against Ma Huang for hypothyroid

patients. He is very good at diagnosing and treating patients, also with

acupuncture, but seems unable to deal with the idea that some people have

body weaknesses which might interfere with the selection of some of herbs.

 

I guess if I go to him I will have to work around this particular

idiosyncrasy, though I agree with your observation, one hundred per cent.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sarah

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

 

--- bonmotSarah wrote:

 

> Still, times change, there is no lock on knowledge,

 

I agree, and I think that goes both ways.

 

> but this does not seem to

> be his style of practicing, admitting to any more

> " modern " ideas, especially

> Western medical diagnosis and its cautions against

> Ma Huang for hypothyroid

> patients.

 

This is a valid caution...just keeping in mind that

the term " hypothyroid " is new, but that the disease is

not.

 

> acupuncture, but seems unable to deal with the idea

> that some people have

> body weaknesses which might interfere with the

> selection of some of herbs.

 

That may be because that's not a TCM idea, nor is it

a classical Chinese Medical idea. In TCM we do not

look at people as being static with set strengths and

weaknesses. We look at a constantly changing and

evolving dynamic which involves more than the

'individual' human body at one point in time. What may

be completely contraindicated one day may be exactly

what the person needs the next.

One thing which I've found really, really hinders the

practice of TCM is " aversion " or " attachment " . It's

something I learned (am learning, I should say) in my

studies of chinese martial arts. If we have a set idea

- whether it is positive or negative - we'll get hit,

or we will fall etc. Our only option is to flow with

what is, no matter what our preconceived ideas may be.

What I've found is that allowing flow to happen

" clarifies " things.

 

I guess that leads me to my point: There is a student

whom I work closely with, and she has a Heart yang

deficiency with attendant anxiety and a little

dampness accumulation etc. Anyway, she had a bad

experience with candida and some sort of fungal

infection, and ever since then she's had a problem

with the herb Fu Ling (which is a fungus). The problem

is somewhat vague, but revolves around an " allergic

reaction " (note the western terminology) which in her

case manifests as constriction of her throat and

deficiency type palpitations everytime she has

something with FuLing in it.

After she began to notice this problem she did go and

get a raw-herb formula prescribed. She took the herbs

and felt better every time she took them, and lo and

behold, she belatedly found out that FuLing had been

an ingredient. The Dean of our school straight out

suggested to her that it was all in her mind. She

agrees too, but she still feels very nervous and won't

take it. Which is fine, and now she has additional

informatio on a certain aspect of her character, which

goes along with heart yang deficient people,

apparently.

 

We know that the mind is powerful and that the mind /

body split does not exist...we /can/ easily cause a

number of symptoms. It's very hard to keep the

emotional winds and the monkey mind at their proper

tasks instead of at tomfoolery. The other day I had a

stomachache and didn't even enjoy a delicious meal

because of nothing more than worry. <shrug>

 

I'm sorry I don't remember clearly, but the symptoms

you listed as adverse reactions to the Ma Huang also

have the possibility of being generated or amplified

by the mind. From what I remember you mentioned an

" over-stimulation of the nervous system " and energy

movement along the spine and something like static

charge... first I don't see any of those as being

dangerous symptoms, second, I know that at least one

of them (the hair/static charge thing) is very easy to

self-generate and third I don't recognise any of them

as being exclusively or at all related to MaHuang

overdose or improper prescription. The CNS over-stim

you mentioned, could you go into more detail? It is

far too general and vague a description that, by

itself, is not enough to form a conclusion. The other

two symptoms listed are not something I consider to be

of primary clinical relevance. Perhaps you could

explain if and how these symptoms interfere with your

regular functioning, or what other symptoms they are

coupled with?

 

Excess or imprper use of Ma Huang can lead to 2

categories of symptoms (these lists are not

exclusive):

 

Excess:

1 Dry Mouth

2 Palpitations, excess type (this one can be serious)

3 Headaches, pounding (this one can be serious)

4 Highly restless or nervous

(all 4 because of heating aspect of MH)

 

Deficiency:

1 Excess sweating followed by aggravation of symptoms

or increased weakness

2 Palpitations, deficiency type

(both because of diaphoretic effect of MH, both can be

serious)

 

> I guess if I go to him I will have to work around

> this particular idiosyncrasy,

 

My recommendation is that you do not tamper with the

herbal formulas which you are given, unless you have

some sort of agreement with your practitioner, or you

find someone else whom you can work with in a manner

agreeable to you.

 

My feeling is that you do not really respect this

practitioner, therefore another prctitioner would

probably be the best choice.

 

I know this has been blunt, I hope you can appreciate

my intent and effort,

 

Take care,

Hugo

 

 

 

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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

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[Guest guest]

Hello Al,

 

Thank you once again for your reply about Ren Shen Bai Du San. I think you

have clarified many points for me about this and how to view the way TCM

formulas may be used (I love the rule breaking statement you made--I just

went with the formula Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan because it made me feel at least a

little better, the listen to your body rule I guess, and what you said gives

me more confidence to try things even though I am a mere novice in TCM). I

am grateful for that statement plus your additional suggestions for some

herbal formulas to try for this problem. I think probably that Ren Shen Bai

Du San may not be correct for what is going on with me right now, since all

phlegm is gone from my lungs. Still this will be something to keep in mind

if I get similar symptoms in the future (and I almost always do with

flu/colds).

 

During my illness I got some honey loquat syrup from my health food store

(did not go back for more ephedra formulas from my practitioner) when I

developed a cough. That syrup added to hot water with the addition of juice

from a lemon seemed to loosen things up a lot. By that time I had gotten

some yellow phlegm. Maybe because I am deficient it was deficiency heat

which developed after the first symptoms which were cold (white phlegm). In

fact I think that the latest formula that my practitioner gave me (from

which I took out most of the ephedra and added some additional fresh ginger)

got rid of the rest of my symptoms from this illness. Now I seem to be back

to the cold ones I usually have, like cold feet and fatigue. I was

disappointed because I had just begun to feel warm lately and the illness has

set me back again.

 

>People with thyroid conditions ***who are taking syntrhoid*** are

>probably best to avoid Ma Huang.

 

Yes, I am on medication for thyroid (though not synthroid, but natural

hormone), but even when I was not I could never tolerate ma huang, due to the

side effects I first mentioned (which effect the central nervous system). It

also makes me feel hyperactive and jittery given a high enough dose.

 

>Then consider Yu Ping Feng San for those periods in between colds. This

>formula focuses on the Lungs (immune system) which may be what is

>indicated for you, perhaps in addition to your spleen or kidney tonics.

 

I will look into the Yu Ping Feng San. I am assuming from your above

statement that it might be all right to take this with the Bu Zhong Yi Chi

Wan? I also take Liu Wei Di Huang Wan in the morning (about thirty of the

teapills)--my practitioner calls them Chinese vitamins and urges all his

healthy patients to take either these or Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan (the addition

of aconite and cinnamon in this version of the formula have been constipating

for me in the past, but since I am now taking some daily magnesium this may

no longer be true).

 

I have copied your replies for future reference and plan to be prepared for

symptoms which may be similar in the future by getting some Ren Shen Bai Du

San right before the next cold/flu season. If my symptoms change from the

cold ones I usually have I will consult the expert help that is here. I think

if I ever have truly hot symptoms with a cold or flu I will jump up and down

with joy as I know it will mean I am getting better (well, that is a weird

statement I know, but having been cold most of my life I am sure you

understand). Also I do not think ephedra would be used on hot symptoms,

another bonus for me.

 

Thanks so much for your help. Much appreciated.

 

Sarah

[Guest guest]

Fascinating !

 

I did the same thing with Yang Xue An Shen Wan because I was getting what

seemed to me was a heavy metal toxicity reaction after a few months on the

tablets. My suspicion eventually landed on the surface of the pills which

are the same colour as cinnabar (HgS - mercury sulphide - a common TCM

'herb'). Cinnabar should not be used for long, but nopthing about this is

said on the packaging.

 

It took a while for me to figure this out .. 1. Stopping the Wan -

eventually the specific symptom that bothered me went away. 2. Other makes

of Yang Xue An Shen - Pian for example were not as effective in helping me

sleep, but they did not cause me to have the toxic reaction either. I

attribute this was due to the absence of the cinnabar trace on the surface

coating of the Wan. 2. A raw-herb mix where I could visually confirm that

cinnabar was absent, and where I could modify the dose according to need

enabled me to obtain some desired effect, but still not as good as the

original Wan product.

 

> The Dean of our school straight out suggested to her that it was all in

her mind.

 

TCM is still new to me and very exciting, BUT it is a bit of a nerve for

someone to tell a patient it is 'all in the mind' when the prescribed

medicine does not do what it should. If she had been given a raw-herb

formula to start with then there might be some justification in the claim,

but OTS 'off the shelf' pills and potions often do not state exactly what

they contain. The makers obviously like to protect 'secret formulae' tucked

away inside traditional prescriptions in a very competetive market

 

The Dean should be aware that it is 'reasonable' to expect that the OTS

product may contain components that are not stated on the label and

therefore, not easy to account for if and when a patient develops a

'reaction'.

 

> My feeling is that you do not really respect this practitioner, therefore

another prctitioner would probably be the best choice.

 

> I know this has been blunt, I hope you can appreciate my intent and

effort,

 

> Take care,

> Hugo

 

Thanks for the insightful comments. Much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

Sammy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hugo Ramiro [subincor]

16 February 2003 17:43

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re:Is there anything which might

substitute for Ma Huang in Cold/Flu Formulas

 

 

Hi there,

 

--- bonmotSarah wrote:

 

> Still, times change, there is no lock on knowledge,

 

I agree, and I think that goes both ways.

 

> but this does not seem to

> be his style of practicing, admitting to any more

> " modern " ideas, especially

> Western medical diagnosis and its cautions against

> Ma Huang for hypothyroid

> patients.

 

This is a valid caution...just keeping in mind that

the term " hypothyroid " is new, but that the disease is

not.

 

> acupuncture, but seems unable to deal with the idea

> that some people have

> body weaknesses which might interfere with the

> selection of some of herbs.

 

That may be because that's not a TCM idea, nor is it

a classical Chinese Medical idea. In TCM we do not

look at people as being static with set strengths and

weaknesses. We look at a constantly changing and

evolving dynamic which involves more than the

'individual' human body at one point in time. What may

be completely contraindicated one day may be exactly

what the person needs the next.

One thing which I've found really, really hinders the

practice of TCM is " aversion " or " attachment " . It's

something I learned (am learning, I should say) in my

studies of chinese martial arts. If we have a set idea

- whether it is positive or negative - we'll get hit,

or we will fall etc. Our only option is to flow with

what is, no matter what our preconceived ideas may be.

What I've found is that allowing flow to happen

" clarifies " things.

 

I guess that leads me to my point: There is a student

whom I work closely with, and she has a Heart yang

deficiency with attendant anxiety and a little

dampness accumulation etc. Anyway, she had a bad

experience with candida and some sort of fungal

infection, and ever since then she's had a problem

with the herb Fu Ling (which is a fungus). The problem

is somewhat vague, but revolves around an " allergic

reaction " (note the western terminology) which in her

case manifests as constriction of her throat and

deficiency type palpitations everytime she has

something with FuLing in it.

After she began to notice this problem she did go and

get a raw-herb formula prescribed. She took the herbs

and felt better every time she took them, and lo and

behold, she belatedly found out that FuLing had been

an ingredient. The Dean of our school straight out

suggested to her that it was all in her mind. She

agrees too, but she still feels very nervous and won't

take it. Which is fine, and now she has additional

informatio on a certain aspect of her character, which

goes along with heart yang deficient people,

apparently.

 

We know that the mind is powerful and that the mind /

body split does not exist...we /can/ easily cause a

number of symptoms. It's very hard to keep the

emotional winds and the monkey mind at their proper

tasks instead of at tomfoolery. The other day I had a

stomachache and didn't even enjoy a delicious meal

because of nothing more than worry. <shrug>

 

I'm sorry I don't remember clearly, but the symptoms

you listed as adverse reactions to the Ma Huang also

have the possibility of being generated or amplified

by the mind. From what I remember you mentioned an

" over-stimulation of the nervous system " and energy

movement along the spine and something like static

charge... first I don't see any of those as being

dangerous symptoms, second, I know that at least one

of them (the hair/static charge thing) is very easy to

self-generate and third I don't recognise any of them

as being exclusively or at all related to MaHuang

overdose or improper prescription. The CNS over-stim

you mentioned, could you go into more detail? It is

far too general and vague a description that, by

itself, is not enough to form a conclusion. The other

two symptoms listed are not something I consider to be

of primary clinical relevance. Perhaps you could

explain if and how these symptoms interfere with your

regular functioning, or what other symptoms they are

coupled with?

 

Excess or imprper use of Ma Huang can lead to 2

categories of symptoms (these lists are not

exclusive):

 

Excess:

1 Dry Mouth

2 Palpitations, excess type (this one can be serious)

3 Headaches, pounding (this one can be serious)

4 Highly restless or nervous

(all 4 because of heating aspect of MH)

 

Deficiency:

1 Excess sweating followed by aggravation of symptoms

or increased weakness

2 Palpitations, deficiency type

(both because of diaphoretic effect of MH, both can be

serious)

 

> I guess if I go to him I will have to work around

> this particular idiosyncrasy,

 

My recommendation is that you do not tamper with the

herbal formulas which you are given, unless you have

some sort of agreement with your practitioner, or you

find someone else whom you can work with in a manner

agreeable to you.

 

My feeling is that you do not really respect this

practitioner, therefore another prctitioner would

probably be the best choice.

 

I know this has been blunt, I hope you can appreciate

my intent and effort,

 

Take care,

Hugo

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> I guess that leads me to my point: There is a student

> whom I work closely with, and she has a Heart yang

> deficiency with attendant anxiety and a little

> dampness accumulation etc. Anyway, she had a bad

> experience with candida and some sort of fungal

> infection, and ever since then she's had a problem

> with the herb Fu Ling (which is a fungus). The problem

> is somewhat vague, but revolves around an " allergic

> reaction " (note the western terminology) which in her

> case manifests as constriction of her throat and

> deficiency type palpitations everytime she has

> something with FuLing in it.

 

> After she began to notice this problem she did go and

> get a raw-herb formula prescribed. She took the herbs

> and felt better every time she took them, and lo and

> behold, she belatedly found out that FuLing had been

> an ingredient. The Dean of our school straight out

> suggested to her that it was all in her mind. She

> agrees too, but she still feels very nervous and won't

> take it. Which is fine, and now she has additional

> informatio on a certain aspect of her character, which

> goes along with heart yang deficient people,

> apparently.

 

I do need to point out that allergies do occur sometimes, and they

are not in the patient's mind.

 

Sometimes Fu Ling can cause problems when there is Phlegm. Also when

a person suffers from both Dampness and Dryness. Other things may

have to be addressed before the person can benefit from Fu Ling.

 

> I'm sorry I don't remember clearly, but the symptoms

> you listed as adverse reactions to the Ma Huang also

> have the possibility of being generated or amplified

> by the mind. From what I remember you mentioned an

> " over-stimulation of the nervous system " and energy

> movement along the spine and something like static

> charge... first I don't see any of those as being

> dangerous symptoms, second, I know that at least one

> of them (the hair/static charge thing) is very easy to

> self-generate and third I don't recognise any of them

> as being exclusively or at all related to MaHuang

> overdose or improper prescription. The CNS over-stim

> you mentioned, could you go into more detail? It is

> far too general and vague a description that, by

> itself, is not enough to form a conclusion. The other

> two symptoms listed are not something I consider to be

> of primary clinical relevance. Perhaps you could

> explain if and how these symptoms interfere with your

> regular functioning, or what other symptoms they are

> coupled with?

>

> Excess or imprper use of Ma Huang can lead to 2

> categories of symptoms (these lists are not

> exclusive):

>

> Excess:

> 1 Dry Mouth

> 2 Palpitations, excess type (this one can be serious)

> 3 Headaches, pounding (this one can be serious)

> 4 Highly restless or nervous

> (all 4 because of heating aspect of MH)

>

> Deficiency:

> 1 Excess sweating followed by aggravation of symptoms

> or increased weakness

> 2 Palpitations, deficiency type

> (both because of diaphoretic effect of MH, both can be

> serious)

 

I want to point out to the students on the list that you've

mentioning Deficiency symptoms. The reason is that Ma Huang can

deplete Qi. This is in addition to MaHuang having the property of

inducing sweating. The Ma Haung also is depleting Qi, and these are

Qi Deficiency symptoms.

 

I'm interested in the discussion on Ma Huang and hypothyroidism

because I used to be on Minor Blue Green Dragon tea (which contains

Ma Huang). I had no problems. But I was not on thyroid medication

at the time. I was also limited in how much to take per month.

Also, I was on a lot of other formulas at the time. The Minor Blue

Green Dragon tea was great in my case.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

In a message dated Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:12:41 -0000,

victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon writes:

 

 

> I do need to point out that allergies do occur sometimes, and they

> are not in the patient's mind.

>

 

Yes, and not all symptoms patients have from a particular drug or herb are in

the patient's mind either. As a person who has seen allergies to drugs in

dogs who do not think as a human does, I would doubly agree with this

statement. Not everything a patient has is as a result of his mind, but may

be an inherent weakness which was in the body from birth. I think even TCM

discusses this in the case of congenital Jing or essence which comes from the

parents. So not everything is generated from the patient himself in his

mind.

 

>Sometimes Fu Ling can cause problems when there is Phlegm. Also when

>a person suffers from both Dampness and Dryness. Other things may

>have to be addressed before the person can benefit from Fu Ling.

 

I think this may have been a problem for me when I got the first formula for

flu from my practitioner. When I saw him my symptoms were all cold, but

after I took the first dose, which seemed to have some fu ling in it (I think

so anyway, I am not always sure I recognize all the herbs) I got hot

symptoms. My phlegm turned yellow and the second dose of the ephedra formula

(I think there was also cinnamon twig, apricot seed, fresh ginger, and

persica seed) led to bronchial asthma. I wound up in the ER with trouble

breathing.

 

My major complaint with ephedra in larger percentages in formulas is that I

get very nervous from it and it seems to raise my blood pressure as well (so

I guess that makes it excess for me). I took most of the ephedra out of my

second batch of herbs for the flu this time (added in some additional fresh

ginger). Even doing so I got that strange sensation of something running

along in my spinal column and nervous system.

 

>I'm interested in the discussion on Ma Huang and hypothyroidism

>because I used to be on Minor Blue Green Dragon tea (which contains

>Ma Huang). I had no problems. But I was not on thyroid medication

>at the time. I was also limited in how much to take per month.

>Also, I was on a lot of other formulas at the time. The Minor Blue

>Green Dragon tea was great in my case.

 

I took some Minor Blue Dragon capsules last summer. These did not seem to

bother me as much (still got that strange nervous system thing, but did not

get nervous or feel as if my blood pressure elevated) even while on my

thyroid medication. I think maybe the ephedra formulas which bother me the

most are the ones which have higher percentages of ephedra (because the

formula itself has fewer herbs and therefore the percentage of ephedra is

higher--the flu formula has fewer herbs so the percentage of the ephedra is

greater than in the Minor Blue Dragon which has many herbs in the formula and

the ratio is lower to some of the other herbs in the formula as well). Still

I think ephedra is something I would do best to avoid if there is anything

else to substitute. Doubly so because I am on thyroid medication.

 

Sarah

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Yes, and not all symptoms patients have from a particular drug or

herb are in

> the patient's mind either.

 

Just a reminder that people with liver or kidney problems often have

problems metabolizing drugs.

 

One of the symptoms of CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction

Syndrome) is that the person tends to react to drugs. I did, and

this is a big part of what got me really into alternative medicine.

 

Some of the older drugs are actually better for PWCs (People With

CFIDS) because their effects are not so extreme and they have shorter

half-lives (the drug doesn't stay active and/or in the body as long

as many of the newer drugs).

 

Reactions to antihistamines are fairly common, and may be the cause

of the anxiety attacks some people have. They also can be the cause

of hyperactive behavior in children.

 

> I took some Minor Blue Dragon capsules last summer. These did not

seem to

> bother me as much (still got that strange nervous system thing, but

did not

> get nervous or feel as if my blood pressure elevated) even while on

my

> thyroid medication.

 

Also you took it in pill form instead of as a tea. It might have

produced more side effects in tea form.

 

BTW, the TCM healer I saw placed me on the formula in the late winter

and early spring. Worked wonders in my case. He also made a point

of instructing me to drink it hot as to mazimize its benefits.

 

Victoria