Re:Is there anything which might substitute for Ma Huang in Cold/Flu Formul

[Guest guest]

In a message dated Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:42:41 -0800

Al Stone <alstone writes:

> There's a formula for the cold that is for people who are deficient such

> as yourself. Its called Ren Shen Bai Du San. It isn't so much for Yang

> (hypthyroidism) but for Qi. The two are closely related, so you still

> might get some benefit from it. It has no Ma Huang in it

 

Thanks for the tip Al. Yes, I am deficient in Kidney Yang and I also believe

in Spleen (though this has not been said). I am also probably Kidney Yin

deficient due to the extended length of time the hypothyroid condition was

ignored by Western medicine (too bad I did not know about TCM at that time).

 

I looked up the formula Ren Shen Bai Du San and the information I found said

that this formula is a tonic formula. My practitioner was gone the third

week of my " flu " and so since no one was there and my symptoms seemed like

spleen I took some Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan on my own. When I saw my practitioner

the other day after his return he said this formula was no good, because I

was still having a floating pulse and that one should never take tonics while

ill. Still Ren Shen Bai Du San formula seems to be used for the flu and also

a tonic formula, so I am confused here about whether it is not good to use

tonic herbs when ill. I know that taking Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan did help the

bloated feeling I was having, but then I developed a bit of pain and a

sensation of heat in the liver area. Anyway, is Ren Shen Bai Du San good for

this recovery period only (like now, I am still recovering from this four

weeks later, and have a very hard time throwing off any illness, due I am

sure to the deficiencies) or may you also take it when the first signs of

cold symptoms type flu/cold are felt? To be honest I am tired of getting

formulas with Ma Huang in it when I get sick. People with thyroid conditions

are warned away from this herb, and with good reason I believe (though for

normal people I think it is great when used correctly).

 

I want to thank you once again for your help and your time. I love this

forum where anyone is allowed to ask questions about TCM. I enjoy learning

about TCM so much and it is good to be given to some different ideas about

it.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sarah

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

bonmotSarah wrote:

 

> I looked up the formula Ren Shen Bai Du San and the information I found said

> that this formula is a tonic formula.

 

Yes, but it is also used for external attacks (i.e. common cold). The

fact that one book places it under the category of " tonics " shouldn't be

taken as a limitation, only as a means of categorization. Think of it

this way, suger is a sweetener, but it can also be used (powdered) to

add an attractive appearance to some pastries. Dumb example, but I'm

sure you get my point.

 

> My practitioner was gone the third

> week of my " flu " and so since no one was there and my symptoms seemed like

> spleen I took some Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan on my own. When I saw my practitioner

> the other day after his return he said this formula was no good, because I

> was still having a floating pulse and that one should never take tonics while

> ill.

 

This is the party line, yes. But sometimes you gotta break the rules.

Many master herbalists do.

 

> Still Ren Shen Bai Du San formula seems to be used for the flu and also

> a tonic formula, so I am confused here about whether it is not good to use

> tonic herbs when ill.

 

Its all a matter of what works for you. If you're deficient, this may

help. It really addresses the Lungs, their Qi and their domination of

Wei Qi which is your immune system. It also does a number on body aches

via the herbs that go to the UB channel and push out the wind-cold from

there. Obviuosly we (TCM) do have contingencies for when we have a

deficient patient who needs to be diaphoresed (sweating out a cold).

This formula is a perfect example of such a contingency.

 

> Anyway, is Ren Shen Bai Du San good for

> this recovery period only (like now, I am still recovering from this four

> weeks later, and have a very hard time throwing off any illness, due I am

> sure to the deficiencies) or may you also take it when the first signs of

> cold symptoms type flu/cold are felt?

 

I think it is perfect for the recovery period, especially if there is

phlegm left in your lungs. As for taking it at the first sign, I'm okay

with that, though admitidly I suppose it would be wise to look at those

first signs before really predicting which formula is best.

 

> To be honest I am tired of getting

> formulas with Ma Huang in it when I get sick. People with thyroid conditions

> are warned away from this herb, and with good reason I believe (though for

> normal people I think it is great when used correctly).

 

People with thyroid conditions ***who are taking syntrhoid*** are

probably best to avoid Ma Huang. Regardless of this, if you don't like

Ma Huang for the acute episode, try Gui Zhi Tang or look around for a

formula that " releases the exterior " but doesn't include Ma Huang. Many

of them don't.

 

Then consider Yu Ping Feng San for those periods in between colds. This

formula focuses on the Lungs (immune system) which may be what is

indicated for you, perhaps in addition to your spleen or kidney tonics.

 

> I want to thank you once again for your help and your time. I love this

> forum where anyone is allowed to ask questions about TCM. I enjoy learning

> about TCM so much and it is good to be given to some different ideas about

> it.

 

yeah, its fun, ain't it?

 

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

--- Al Stone <alstone wrote: >

 

> formula was no good, because I

> > was still having a floating pulse and that one

> should never take tonics while

> > ill.

 

> This is the party line, yes. But sometimes you gotta

> break the rules.

> Many master herbalists do.

 

There's something about this in the old chinese

classic, " The Matrix " :

" What you've got to understand is that this world is

made out of rules, rules much like those on a computer

system; some of them can be bent. Others...can be

broken. "

 

And then there's this raging electric guitar and a

guy flying around.

 

Bye,

Hugo

 

 

 

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