Sp Qi Def and Phlegm

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In a message dated 11/02/2003 06:14:43 GMT Standard Time, subincor

writes:

 

 

> I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough, you shoudl not

> tonify, especially with renshen. The tonification of

> energy is simply going to cause tumult. Your pathways

> need to be clean first.

> When I said that it is the Spleen Qi Def that needs

> to be dealt with I meant a specific context: Spleen Qi

> Deficiency with phlegm accumulation.

 

 

Oh OK - I wondered! I did have two weeks clearing pathways, was much

improved on all those symptoms, pulse, tongue etc and the herbalist only

cautiously agreed to try more tonification when I moaned about lack of

improvement in my fatigue. Maybe even the dang shen would have been too much

back then too, I'm a month further down the line now.

 

>

> Qi. Ok, this is where you do a small mental flip: When

> one has " Spleen Qi Deficiency with Dampness/Phlegm

> Accumulation " _all_ that one needs to do to " Tonify

> the Spleen Qi " is remove the obstruction to normal

> functioning. I think you'll find that once the

> obstruction is removed energy will increase simply

> because the organ is now clean.

 

 

Ah yes of course! It's funny, I once had a prophetic word given to me 'The

fire you thought you had lost is still within you'. That sounds just like Qi

'blockage' rather than deficiency doesn't it.

 

>

> 1. Energy tonics thrown into a dirty system will

> cause tumult / heat and therefore need to be

> prescribed at a dosage that the body can actually

> process, and

 

 

Yes, that is what I think is happening to many of these 'metabolically

challenged' horses. A western vet is 'prescribing' tiny doses of Qi tonic

herbs in a western frame of mind, as 'adaptogens', but even such tiny dosages

are totally overheating for some of them - they get hyper or aggressive,

anxious etc. But she would not even consider using 'archaic' knowledge,

blocked the conversation every time I started it - so I formed a new

group specifically to explore the subject!

 

 

I don't know if my horse has phlegm, or how you would tell in a horse - he

has certainly had some pretty severe mental disturbance in the past which

looked for all the world like it could be, but that has been much allayed by

conventional treatment for hypothyroidism, (which is an edema condition after

all).

 

His pulse was fine after the two month ayurvedic herbs apparently, but he

still lost a whole heap of fluid on the Qi/digestive formula I think. It

could have been bloat I guess - it was a reduction in girth measurement -

that would correspond to our chest measurement (but hypochondriac region

fullness is a liver stagnation sign isn't it?).

 

He went on Dang Shen - Codonopsis - 20%

Bai Zhu - Atractylodes - 20%

Fu Ling - Poria locus - 20%

Chen Pi - Citrus - 5%

Xiao Hui Xiang - Fennel seed - 5%

Mai Ya - Germinate rice - 10%

Gu Ya - Germinated barley - 10%

Shan Zha - Hawthorn berry - 5%

Gan Cao - licorice - 5%

 

But somehow it seems with the ayurvedic I stumbled across a blend that seemed

to 'clean up his system' quite well, prepare it or tonification. When I added

small amounts of the same tonic blend others are using (eleuthero,

schizandra, rhodiola, echinopanax), in my impatience waiting for the

herbalist to come out and see the horse - I had a really good response - they

actually made him calmer, gave him a deep contentment as well as more

physical energy - just as they are cited as doing in TCM references. That to

me suggests that whatever his particular type of blockage was, the ayurvedic

liver/digestive formula was effective in clearing it to some extent.

 

I wondered if it was just that the ayurvedic blend had a more cooling energy,

which it seems to overall, but he was on ashwaganda aswell then too - and

that has a warm energy. I wish I could work out it's properties in the

chinese context, the herbalist recommended it when I first contacted him

about purchasing tinctures as a good 'stand alone' alternative. They call it

the 'Indian ginseng' because of it's immune and 'general tonic' functions,

but it is mild and non-stimulating - so I wonder if it does have any Qi tonic

functions. I don't suppose anyone knows?

 

Thanks again for the explanations, they really help.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

 

> In other words, everything must be prescribed exactly

> according to pattern. Root and branches properly

> identified.

 

 

Yes.

 

>

> A basic formula to tonify spleen qi is Four Gentlemen

> / Si Jun Zi:

> Ren Shen - tonify source qi, warm

> Bai Zhu - tonify sp qi, dry damp

> Fu Ling - percolate damp, drain damp

> Gan Cao - tonify sp qi, harmonise

>

> Not really any herbs in there to resolve or crack

> phlegm / stasis. But it's good for energy weakness and

> some early dampness accumulation. (poor appetite,

> loose bowel movement, lethargy)

>

> Someone with energy weakness plus phlegm accumulation

> would probably rather have a formula like Two Old

> Ingredients / Er Chen:

> Ban Xia - crack/resolve phlegm

> Chen Pi - regulate energy, disperse qi entanglement

> Fu Ling - percolate dampness out, man

> Gan Cao - tonify sp qi

> Sheng Jiang - dry damp, expel pathogens

> Da Zao - moisten dryness, tonify sp qi

>

> Note how the qi tonification is quite minor, esp

> considering that the last two ingredients are not

> always included. Nausea and vomiting with a sticky

> white coating and middle warmer distension for this

> one.

>

> Last example of how we should be wary of tonification

> when there is severe entanglement / obstruction /

> stasis:

> Zhi Zhu / " Zhi Shi and Bai Zhu "

> Bai Zhu - dry damp, tonify spleen qi

> Zhi Shi - crack stasis and disentangle qi

> About 3 times the regular does is used for each

> ingredient, and Bai Zhu a little more than Zhi Shi.

> This formula is used for either

> chronic food stagnation with severe sp qi def

> or

> severe acute food stagnation with mild sp qi def

>

> Yes, Bai Zhu tonifies sp qi, but only mildly, and

> you'll notice that there is no dang shen, ren shen,

> huang qi or, God Forbid, 100 year-old korean ginseng

> in the mix! =)

>

> > Then I read that Dang Shen (codonopsis) had a very

> > different chemistry from

> > Ren Shen and asked if I could try that - and I'm

> > fine on that.

>

> Great.

>

> Hope all thsi helped,

>

> Good night,

> Hugo

>

>

>

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