Guest guest Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 At the Illinois chapter meeting of the American Organization for bodywork Therapies of Asia meeting last Sunday evening, Renee Ryan (who is a teacher of Jin Shin Do and founder of Healers for Peace) gave me a flier for a World Peace and Healing event she is planning on February 9th with Claudia Cameron (who is a pipe carrier and Peace Chief of the White Horse Band) and Debbie Springsteen (who is also a pipe carrier and a lieutenant of the White Horse Band). If you live in the greater Chicago area and would like me to forward a copy of the flier, please e-mail me off list. For those of you who might not be familiar with the terms pipe carrier, it is considered a great honor to accept the responsibilities of carrying a " Pipe " in the Native American (American Indian) community. Quite a few of my friends who earn their living doing medicine based in Daoist theory are also very involved with the American Indian community, especially the religious practices. Perhaps making up for, what seems to me to be, the obvious void created within TCM by Mao's politics? Yours in peace, Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 > Perhaps making up for, what seems to me to be, the obvious void created within TCM by Mao's politics? > Yours in peace, > Penel I think it is the other way round - TCM and Daoism and North American shamanism have an interest in the simplicity and connectedness in natural world, in the behaviour of animals and the weather, passing of the seasons and the natural cycle of birth, death and regeneration. It may interest you to know that it was not Mao who got rid of superstition within TCM. It was TCM and it happened through a gradual process of elimination over the millennia as good stuff was taken on board and the rubbish discarded. Archaeological finds tell of ancient Chinese medicine men making 'offerings', casting 'spells' - things that are no longer practiced because they *don't work*. Anyhow, TCM is not 'atheist' like communism is. Indeed, Daoism pervades TCM but without becoming oppressive and overbearing like a religion. The concepts of Shen or Spirit (not to mention Heavenly-Qi) are cornerstones of TCM and no-one, not even Mao could extinguish them. The reason being of course is that if you do away with Shen and Qi you no longer have a 'working paradigm' which enables practitioners to make complex differentiated observations on syndrome patterns and actually heal people ! Despite trying to eradicate TCM altogether, the People of China rejected Mao's final insult to their culture, and he was forced to relent. Eventually Mao realised that TCM in its entirety was something to be treasured and promoted and he founded many TCM academies throughout China. TCM was allowed to continue in its own terms. You may see a superficial gloss of 'dialectical materialism' in the newer work but this is just lip service to communist patrons. The link between TCM and shamanistic practice in the New World is an interesting one. A few years ago the anthropologist and 'novelist' Carlos Castaneda described movements he claimed to had learnt from Yaqui shamans. These " Magical Passes " had more than a passing resemblance to Qigong. Could these primeval motions have been carried across the Bering Straight thousands of years ago as Asiatics colonised North America, or did Castaneda cunningly insert them into his story line ? Decide for yourself: http://www.castaneda.com/ But shamanistic practice (what Penel calls North American Indian religion) takes us was beyond the remit of TCM, surely ! Sammy. Penel Eynde LeGrand <penel [penel] 06 February 2003 23:23 Chinese Traditional Medicine [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Daoism and the American Indian At the Illinois chapter meeting of the American Organization for bodywork Therapies of Asia meeting last Sunday evening, Renee Ryan (who is a teacher of Jin Shin Do and founder of Healers for Peace) gave me a flier for a World Peace and Healing event she is planning on February 9th with Claudia Cameron (who is a pipe carrier and Peace Chief of the White Horse Band) and Debbie Springsteen (who is also a pipe carrier and a lieutenant of the White Horse Band). If you live in the greater Chicago area and would like me to forward a copy of the flier, please e-mail me off list. For those of you who might not be familiar with the terms pipe carrier, it is considered a great honor to accept the responsibilities of carrying a " Pipe " in the Native American (American Indian) community. Quite a few of my friends who earn their living doing medicine based in Daoist theory are also very involved with the American Indian community, especially the religious practices. Perhaps making up for, what seems to me to be, the obvious void created within TCM by Mao's politics? Yours in peace, Penel Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Hi Sammy, I have read every book by Castaneda as they went on the market since the seventies, and on the preface of one-'The Fire Within', Castaneda thanks someone he only gives the initials of, as someone who taught him 'a new way of being and health'(if I remember the phrase correctly). Years later, in an interview, he explained to the reporter that the person those initials belonged to was a chinese Kung Fu teacher in California who he took classes with. Some friends who do Kung Fu and other martial arts commented with me of the resemblance of the 'shamanical movements' of Castaneda with their own disciplines. Marcos >The link between TCM and shamanistic practice in the New World >is an interesting one. A few years ago the anthropologist >and 'novelist' Carlos Castaneda described movements he claimed >to had learnt from Yaqui shamans. These " Magical Passes " had >more than a passing resemblance to Qigong. Could these primeval >motions have been carried across the Bering Straight thousands >of years ago as Asiatics colonised North America, or did >Castaneda cunningly insert them into his story line ? Decide for >yourself: >http://www.castaneda.com/ >But shamanistic practice (what Penel calls North American Indian >religion)takes us was beyond the remit of TCM, surely ! >Sammy. _____________________ Busca O serviço de busca mais completo da Internet. O que você pensar o encontra. http://br.busca./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 ga.bates wrote: > The link between TCM and shamanistic practice in the New World is an > interesting one. A few years ago the anthropologist and 'novelist' Carlos > Castaneda described movements he claimed to had learnt from Yaqui shamans. > These " Magical Passes " had more than a passing resemblance to Qigong. Could > these primeval motions have been carried across the Bering Straight > thousands of years ago as Asiatics colonised North America, or did Castaneda > cunningly insert them into his story line ? As I dimly recall the connection, having asked myself this same question, there was a member of Don Juan's warrior party (Don Juan was Castaneda's teacher) who had either studied martial arts or was of Asian descent. There was a really clear connection that is there in the generation of shaman that came before Castaneda. Sorry, I can't remember the specifics, but you are correct that their movements have a decidedly Qi Gong flavor to them. You may also be able to find out more info at http://cleargreen.org -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 <snip> > But shamanistic practice (what Penel calls North > American Indian religion) No. I said American Indian Religion because that is what I mean. I was very specific to always say " community " and the word " religious " . I understand _shamanism_ to be a technique. Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 > As I dimly recall the connection, having asked myself this same > question, there was a member of Don Juan's warrior party (Don Juan was > Castaneda's teacher) who had either studied martial arts or was of Asian > descent. There was a really clear connection that is there in the > generation of shaman that came before Castaneda. Sorry, I can't remember > the specifics, but you are correct that their movements have a decidedly > Qi Gong flavor to them. And in other cases I can't help but wonder if some aspects of TCM weren't discovered independently in various places around the world. The knowledge wasn't spread by migrating early Asians, but discovered independently by various people in various locations around the world. My great grandmother was an herbalist. She died a year before I was born, but I remember her youngest sister who lived until I was in my 20's. I can remember aunt Nanny cautioning against drinking cool water too quickly on a hot day as it could cause one to come down with an infection. To put that a better way, cooling down too quickly by drinking too much cool water too quickly can lower one's resistence to things like Scarlett Fever, colds, flu, etc. Her advice was to sip, not gulp, and to pause between sips. Another woman told me of her German mother who used to talk about her stomach being " too cold " . Then there was the early European discovered in ice whose tatoos corresponded to acupoints. All of these examples are European or European heritage. There are remarkable resemblances between TCM and Mayan Medicine. In all these cases, the knowledge could have been spread by migrating Asians, or, it could have been discovered independently. This stuff works, so it could have been discovered independently. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 " victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote:> As I dimly recall the connection, having asked myself this same > question, there was a member of Don Juan's warrior party (Don Juan was > Castaneda's teacher) who had either studied martial arts or was of Asian > descent. There was a really clear connection that is there in the > generation of shaman that came before Castaneda. Sorry, I can't remember > the specifics, but you are correct that their movements have a decidedly > Qi Gong flavor to them. And in other cases I can't help but wonder if some aspects of TCM weren't discovered independently in various places around the world. The knowledge wasn't spread by migrating early Asians, but discovered independently by various people in various locations around the world. My great grandmother was an herbalist. She died a year before I was born, but I remember her youngest sister who lived until I was in my 20's. I can remember aunt Nanny cautioning against drinking cool water too quickly on a hot day as it could cause one to come down with an infection. To put that a better way, cooling down too quickly by drinking too much cool water too quickly can lower one's resistence to things like Scarlett Fever, colds, flu, etc. Her advice was to sip, not gulp, and to pause between sips. Another woman told me of her German mother who used to talk about her stomach being " too cold " . Then there was the early European discovered in ice whose tatoos corresponded to acupoints. All of these examples are European or European heritage. There are remarkable resemblances between TCM and Mayan Medicine. In all these cases, the knowledge could have been spread by migrating Asians, or, it could have been discovered independently. This stuff works, so it could have been discovered independently. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 >If you are in the field without your needles and come upon a medical emergency, please consider useing your fingers or a nearby twig to help with your first aid. other techniques like having a person lie down on top of a small stone in the correct spot or having them self treat by holding a finger on a spot for a short time might help. Thanks for pointing this out. It is surprising what just acupressure can do when used correctly. As long time readers of this list know, just acupressure got rid of a decades old problem of some very servere headaches for me. It not only did a better job of getting rid of the headaches than Demerol did (which only blunted the pain), it reduced my tendency to have the headaches. Now I go for months without one even threatening. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2003 Report Share Posted February 14, 2003 For the record: I looked up the dedication that Carlos Castaneda wrote in his book 'The Fire Within', it goes: " I want to express my admiration and gratitude to the masterful teacher, H.Y.L. for helping me restore my energy and for teaching me an alternate way to plenitude and well-being. " Castaneda leter said in an interview that this teacher was a chinese master of Kung-Fu living in California. Marcos (the truth is not always what we would like it to be!) --- Hoang Ho <twomtns2002 escreveu: " victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote:> As I dimly recall the connection, having asked myself this same > question, there was a member of Don Juan's warrior party (Don Juan was > Castaneda's teacher) who had either studied martial arts or was of Asian > descent. There was a really clear connection that is there in the > generation of shaman that came before Castaneda. Sorry, I can't remember > the specifics, but you are correct that their movements have a decidedly > Qi Gong flavor to them. And in other cases I can't help but wonder if some aspects of TCM weren't discovered independently in various places around the world. The knowledge wasn't spread by migrating early Asians, but discovered independently by various people in various locations around the world. My great grandmother was an herbalist. She died a year before I was born, but I remember her youngest sister who lived until I was in my 20's. I can remember aunt Nanny cautioning against drinking cool water too quickly on a hot day as it could cause one to come down with an infection. To put that a better way, cooling down too quickly by drinking too much cool water too quickly can lower one's resistence to things like Scarlett Fever, colds, flu, etc. Her advice was to sip, not gulp, and to pause between sips. Another woman told me of her German mother who used to talk about her stomach being " too cold " . Then there was the early European discovered in ice whose tatoos corresponded to acupoints. All of these examples are European or European heritage. There are remarkable resemblances between TCM and Mayan Medicine. In all these cases, the knowledge could have been spread by migrating Asians, or, it could have been discovered independently. This stuff works, so it could have been discovered independently. Victoria _____________________ Busca O serviço de busca mais completo da Internet. O que você pensar o encontra. http://br.busca./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 Thanks for the info Marcos. It is very possible that Castaneda obtained his 'Magical Passes' in the way you suggest. However, the question of Chinese involvement in other cultures is still a subject worth persuing, for example ... http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/zheng_he.htm The evidence of acupuncture marks on a 4000 year old mummified European also points to a worldwide 'traffic' in ideas if not goods and services as well, long before our modern history books attempt to define the edges. Sammy. marcos lacerda [ishk18] 14 February 2003 11:25 Chinese Traditional Medicine Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Daoism and the American Indian For the record: I looked up the dedication that Carlos Castaneda wrote in his book 'The Fire Within', it goes: " I want to express my admiration and gratitude to the masterful teacher, H.Y.L. for helping me restore my energy and for teaching me an alternate way to plenitude and well-being. " Castaneda leter said in an interview that this teacher was a chinese master of Kung-Fu living in California. Marcos (the truth is not always what we would like it to be!) --- Hoang Ho <twomtns2002 escreveu: " victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote:> As I dimly recall the connection, having asked myself this same > question, there was a member of Don Juan's warrior party (Don Juan was > Castaneda's teacher) who had either studied martial arts or was of Asian > descent. There was a really clear connection that is there in the > generation of shaman that came before Castaneda. Sorry, I can't remember > the specifics, but you are correct that their movements have a decidedly > Qi Gong flavor to them. And in other cases I can't help but wonder if some aspects of TCM weren't discovered independently in various places around the world. The knowledge wasn't spread by migrating early Asians, but discovered independently by various people in various locations around the world. My great grandmother was an herbalist. She died a year before I was born, but I remember her youngest sister who lived until I was in my 20's. I can remember aunt Nanny cautioning against drinking cool water too quickly on a hot day as it could cause one to come down with an infection. To put that a better way, cooling down too quickly by drinking too much cool water too quickly can lower one's resistence to things like Scarlett Fever, colds, flu, etc. Her advice was to sip, not gulp, and to pause between sips. Another woman told me of her German mother who used to talk about her stomach being " too cold " . Then there was the early European discovered in ice whose tatoos corresponded to acupoints. All of these examples are European or European heritage. There are remarkable resemblances between TCM and Mayan Medicine. In all these cases, the knowledge could have been spread by migrating Asians, or, it could have been discovered independently. This stuff works, so it could have been discovered independently. Victoria _____________________ Busca O serviço de busca mais completo da Internet. O que você pensar o encontra. http://br.busca./ Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 > The evidence of acupuncture marks on a 4000 year old > mummified European also > points to a worldwide 'traffic' in ideas if not > goods and services as well, > long before our modern history books attempt to > define the edges. I agree. My point of view is that one word can be used to define our world: permeable. If goods were transmitted, then how could ideas _not_ be? Everything is transmitted in some form, including diseases. There has been far more cross-fertilisation and plain, simple communication that has gone on than what many of our established historians would like to admit. It makes it harder to assign blame and origin, I suppose. Less categorisation and prejudice is possible. And anyway, we all have the same human body. If my Bl 25 / LI Shu points hurt when I have diarrhea or constipation, they will hurt on anyone else with those conditions as well. Bye, Hugo Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 ga.bates wrote: > The evidence of acupuncture marks on a 4000 year old mummified European also > points to a worldwide 'traffic' in ideas if not goods and services as well, > long before our modern history books attempt to define the edges. Saw a fascinating TV show on the Discovery channel recently. Of the coast of one of Japan's southern most islands was discovered a huge man-made complex that rivals the stone cities of the incas, etc... It is still underwater, but it brings up one important point. For this city to have been constructed above water would have dated it back to the last ice age since the world's sea level was lower then, but not since. That doesn't really fit in to the commonly accepted way of looking at things whereby civilization popped up in pre-biblical Iraq or the east coast of China. These civilations only go back about five or six thousand years. The last ice age goes back 10,000 years. Our assumptions regarding history will have to be dramatically rewritten if it is better determined that his new structure found in Japan really is that old... I had trouble finding info on this that comes from a website with what I consider credible presentation, but at least there's this: http://www.morien-institute.org/interview1_MK.html -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 My friend Sally Wagner, who is an R.N. with the American Indian Health Service of Chicago and an herbalist is trying to help organize the " Native Medicine Garden - Spirit of the Plants " , a community project dedicated to bringing the sacred and medicinal green nations, their stories, uses, and their relationships to humans to the American Indian people of Chicago. What follows is an excerpt from her latest communication about the project. Sally is in a rather unique situation. She not only works with a multitude of people from many different tribes who currently live in Chicago (versus just one tribe as one would find on a reservation) but she also has insight learned from a formal study of TCM. If you want to see the letter in its entirety, contact me off list and I'll be happy to forward it. Yours in peace, Penel <a big snip of organizing stuff, then she talks about what various tribes call the herb _yarrow_ and how it is used. Assume most of the people she has sent this e-mail to are of the American Indian community.> > Here is something very interesting: in China, > for thousands of years, they have used the > Mugwort plant for a treatment called Moxa - > along with acupuncture, this is very important > medicine. A very small, dried piece of the > mugwort plant is place on the skin at certain > energy points, and the plant is lit with fire. > As it burns to the skin, it stimulates the > energy point to aid in healing the person. > This same kind of proceedure was used by > some Pawnee people, only they used Yarrow stems. > The one inch stems were inserted into the skin > at the. desired points, and lit. They would burn > down to the skin, and ease pain to the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2003 Report Share Posted February 16, 2003 --- Al Stone <alstone wrote: > > Our assumptions regarding history will have to be > dramatically rewritten > if it is better determined that his new structure > found in Japan really > is that old... Perhaps, in the end, it will not wash that TCM is only 2000 years old either. Bye, Hugo Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2003 Report Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > Our assumptions regarding history will have to be > > dramatically rewritten > > if it is better determined that his new structure > > found in Japan really > > is that old... > > Perhaps, in the end, it will not wash that TCM is > only 2000 years old either. Well, it really is, by all estimates. But its really hard to point at a single moment in which " TCM " was born since it is a evolution from " ancestor therapy " of 4,000 years ago which required that one appease dead ancestors with sacrifices of food or other valuable items. 2,000 years ago, something like 100 AD, " TCM " was more about addressing demons and evil energies rather than appeasing ancestors. It was at this time that the first medicinal herbs were used (according to known texts, anyway). But it wasn't so much that a particular herb would fix a medicinal problem, but more along the lines that a particular set of toxic substances would remove a demon from your body... I'm reading the History of Medicine in China by Paul Unschold. Really fascinating reading. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2003 Report Share Posted February 17, 2003 --- Al Stone <alstone wrote: > > Well, it really is [only 2000 yrs old], by all > estimates. > I'm reading the History of Medicine in China by Paul > Unschold. Really fascinating reading. Ok. I just thought its age may have been underestimated like so many historical events' ages have been. Like the traditional estimate of less than ten thousand years worth of habitation of the american continent, when newer evidence indicates habitation of as far back as eighty or ninety thousand years. I had read about theories involving a progenitor to Chinese medicine. It just seems to me that as knowledge increases things turn out to be far older than the conservative historical/archaeological establishment tends to paint it. They were pretty darn sure about the <10,000 human habitation in america too. I don't know. Thanks, bye, Hugo Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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