Digest Number 735

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/15/2003 1:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Chinese Traditional Medicine writes:

 

> ... " I'm having all the symptoms of hypothyroidism including; acne

> (1st time ever), dry eyes, fatigue, joint and muscle aches, weight

> gain (I'm very healthy), low sex drive, nails are

 

i just seen dr atkins on tv saying thyroid problems dont always show up in

blood work.you can take your temperture every day and if it is 97.8 or below

you have a thyroid problem.ide persue this issue with your doctor

good luck

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/15/2003 1:14:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Chinese Traditional Medicine writes:

>> ... " I'm having all the symptoms of hypothyroidism including;

>>acne (1st time ever), dry eyes, fatigue, joint and muscle

>>aches, weight gain (I'm very healthy), low sex drive, nails are

 

 

>i just seen dr atkins on tv saying thyroid problems dont always

>show up in blood work.you can take your temperture every day

>and if it is 97.8 or below you have a thyroid problem.ide persue

>this issue with your doctor good luck

 

I think its great the assistence and help made available here at

the list, but this is a TCM list, i dont know about the other

members, but if i wanted Western medical advice i would be

somewhere else, not here! Hypothyroid is not treated as such in

TCM,(dont know if you noticed), the two approaches are VERY

different.

Marcos

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , florickflo@a... wrote:

 

> i just seen dr atkins on tv saying thyroid problems dont always

show up in

> blood work.you can take your temperture every day and if it is

97.8 or below

> you have a thyroid problem.ide persue this issue with your doctor

> good luck

 

Where was Dr. Atkins when I needed him<G>

 

Seriously, My body temperature was down to the 96 range. The lower

my body temperature, the sicker I was. I also had chronic mono

during this time.

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , marcos lacerda <ishk18>

wrote:

 

> I think its great the assistence and help made available here at

> the list, but this is a TCM list, i dont know about the other

> members, but if i wanted Western medical advice i would be

> somewhere else, not here! Hypothyroid is not treated as such in

> TCM,(dont know if you noticed), the two approaches are VERY

> different.

 

Marcos, I encourage members to become familiar with Western

medicine. Sometimes people need to know when to refer to Western

doctors.

 

Also, the healers who have knowledge of both often are more

effective. There are some cases where a combination of Western and

TCM is more effective than either alone. For example, leukemia.

 

One thing I've discovered is that knowledge of Western medicine often

gives insights into TCM just has knowledge of TCM often gives

insights into Western medicine. It may well be that in the future

the standard treatment for hypothyroidism will be a combination of

thyroid replacement and Yang tonic herbs and herbs to warm the

Interior. There have been a lot of cases like mine where the thyroid

medication alone would not do the job and the Kidney Yang Deficiency

also had to be addressed, but there also has been cases where the

herbs to treat Kidney Yang Deficiency were not enough, and the person

needed thyroid hormone.

 

A reminder that only licensed doctors can treat Western-defined

medical disorders and dispense Western drugs or hormones.

 

BTW, there also are yoga exercises that one can do to improve thyroid

function.

 

Not everyone who is Kidney Yang Deficient is hypothyroid. The two

are not the same. But a surprising number of people who are

hypothyroid also suffer from Kidney Yang Deficiency.

 

There is primary, secondary, and tertiary thyroid problems. Primary,

the problem is in the thyroid gland, Secondary, the problem is in

the pituitary gland. Tertiary (rare), is in the hypothalamus.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

This is quite long, I hope there's some useful

information or ideas in it for your use:

 

> marcos lacerda <ishk18> wrote:

> if i wanted Western medical advice i

> would be somewhere else, not here! Hypothyroid is

not

> treated as such in

> TCM,(dont know if you noticed), the two approaches

> are VERY different.

 

Then Victoria:

 

> Marcos, I encourage members to become familiar with

Western medicine. Sometimes people need to know when

to refer to Western doctors.

 

Now me (there's an explanation first, then I deal with

Marcus, and then Victoria):

 

I went to a lecture a couple of weeks ago about the

modernisation of TCM. It was given by a Canadian

professor at the Institute of Ageing at U of Toronto.

She had been invited to a conference in ChengDu,

China, a very fertile area that produces much of the

herb bulk that we see. The whole flavour of the

conference, she reported, was commercial. Not only

were she and other academics given next to zero

attention re their lectures, but there was a very very

strong commercial focus and presence. For example,

there were highly detailed strategies to promote TCM

worldwide, which sounds great until you hear that

they're trying to eliminate the taste of the herbs to

make them more palatable and so on. They've also been

developing good ties with pharmaceuticals, who, of

course, want to use chinese herbs in their own way.

Apparently ChengDu is the main herb producer in China

-it's one of the most fertile areas in China, if not

the most fertile area. What's happening there is

indicative of the dangers which we are going to to

have to deal with here (because it will take them a

long time over there to realise that commercialism and

capitalism are not what they're cracked up to be).

This professor in question was left with a very

strong feeling that preserving the heart of Chinese

medicine was not at all a concern, and that turning

Chinese medicine into some sort of variant of western

medicine was considered to be the way. Many of the

presented efforts were on the line of fitting TCM into

randomly controlled trials, which, as we all know,

were not designed for TCM. It's this 'procrustean bed'

scenario which has plagued TCM since the Chinese gov't

tried to standardise it early last century.

 

I think that Marcus brings up a very important point

in that the systems are very different - so different,

in fact, that the two systems working side-by-side

cannot, in fact, occur without TCM losing its, well,

whole-ism.

In China TCM is practiced side-by-side with western

medicine - a so-called integrated system, and while it

works better than the silly fractured system we have

here, I do believe they have become complacent with

the brand of western medical dogma which they have

over there. Honestly, the CHinese are working, right

now, from an outdated western medical paradigm - the

paradigm that still states that matter is primary and

that to produce valid results, results must be reduced

to physical components. We should know that removing

subjectivity is one of the main weaknesses of western

medicine. And we are going to allow TCM to transfer

that weakness, amongst others, into its own system?? I

for one, am not.

 

Vitoria encourages us, rightly, to always see all

sides and to consult with western medicine etc. It is

often necessary, especially with the under-developed

TCM which we often have here in North America. This

forum should help us all to see all sides, as well as

to develop our understanding and our application of

TCM as deeply as possible. I am certain that we are

only scratching the surface.

 

The final point of my argument is that it is possibly

up to us here, in non-China, to take the next step

since we are very familiar with the pitfalls of thw

western medical system. The new medicine, the really

New medicine, far from being an " integrated " system of

two antagonistic principles, needs to be a continued

unfolding of the TCM paradigm. Western methods and

techniques fit beautifully within the TCM dynamic,

especially when we consider the most vital elements of

western medicine - the new _living_ sciences of life -

bioelectromagnetics, morphogenesis, whole systems

theory, quantum theory etc. I believe that these are

the sciences which will fit into TCM and which will

lead the cruder physical sciences to their respective

places.

 

We have seen that, more often than not, western

medicine has been abused and used in dangerous ways. I

really don't believe that wm has a viable ethical /

worldview system - i.e. their way of thinking is not

sustainable, it is based on control rather than

harmony. Furthermore, I like to think that even at the

pinnacle of the corruption of Chinese medicine, the

old way of harmony with nature, not control of nature

was present at the ChengDu conference - there was

strong talk of sustainable agriculture.

 

One last comment, please do not mistake me and think

that I am saying that TCM is finished or needs no

change or correction - on the contrary, TCM needs to

continue to unfold, grow, refine, clarify and discard

errors. What I am stating is that the basic theory,

the basic worldview, is correct - and this has been

proven again and again. All we need to do is progress

from there.

 

Ok, thanks for reading,

 

Hugo " struggling with regulation keeps all these

things at the forefront of my brain "

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> I went to a lecture a couple of weeks ago about the

> modernisation of TCM. It was given by a Canadian

> professor at the Institute of Ageing at U of Toronto.

> She had been invited to a conference in ChengDu,

> China, a very fertile area that produces much of the

> herb bulk that we see. The whole flavour of the

> conference, she reported, was commercial. Not only

> were she and other academics given next to zero

> attention re their lectures, but there was a very very

> strong commercial focus and presence. For example,

> there were highly detailed strategies to promote TCM

> worldwide, which sounds great until you hear that

> they're trying to eliminate the taste of the herbs to

> make them more palatable and so on. They've also been

> developing good ties with pharmaceuticals, who, of

> course, want to use chinese herbs in their own way.

 

Thanks, Hugo for an excellent post.

 

It is of critical importance that TCM NOT lose its identity or become

Westernized.

 

I am very concerned about attempts to eliminate the taste of herbs.

What gives the herbs their taste often are the ingredients with the

healing properties.

 

I am very opposed to isolating the supposedly " active " ingredients of

herbs. First, science simply does not know what all ingredients do,

and there very well may be active ingredients what science is unaware

of. A good example of this is the identification of vitamin C.

Researchers thought that vitamin C was the only active and important

ingredient in certain fruits. As it turned out, bioflavanoids also

are important. My husband recently learned this. He has been taking

a vitamin C supplement without bioflavanoids and developed some

problems. When he started eating some tangerines, the problems began

to disappear.

 

Second, we simply do not know the effects that various ingredients

have on each other. By removing one ingredient - the

supposedly " active " ingredient - it may not work as well as it does

when other ingredients are present.

 

We've already seen what happens when pharmaceutical companies do not

use herbs in accordence with TCM rules. Ma Huang should NEVER be

used in a weight loss formula or for a buzz. Ma Huang is for warming

the exterior and inducing sweating. It is used for the TaiYang-stage

of Exterior chill.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 26/01/2003 04:15:35 GMT Standard Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

 

> I am very concerned about attempts to eliminate the taste of herbs.

> What gives the herbs their taste often are the ingredients with the

> healing properties.

>

 

This reminded me to ask - why is it that in treatment you might taste and

smell a new herb in a decoction very strongly for a couple of days, and then

not at all??

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

After reading Victoria's view and now yours Hugo, i think i must

apologise for my previous 'radical' opinion. It is surely more

useful for us to know the advantages AND the limitations of both

systems(TCM and WM), and in what way they can be integrated in a

therapeutic partnership -that is the best we can do without

sacrificing one off to the other.

Marcos

 

>(...)I think that Marcus brings up a very important point

>in that the systems are very different - so different,

>in fact, that the two systems working side-by-side

>cannot, in fact, occur without TCM losing its, well,

>whole-ism.

>In China TCM is practiced side-by-side with western

>medicine - a so-called integrated system, and while it

>works better than the silly fractured system we have

>here, I do believe they have become complacent with

>the brand of western medical dogma which they have

>over there. Honestly, the CHinese are working, right

>now, from an outdated western medical paradigm - the

>paradigm that still states that matter is primary and

>that to produce valid results, results must be reduced

>to physical components. We should know that removing

>subjectivity is one of the main weaknesses of western

>medicine. And we are going to allow TCM to transfer

>that weakness, amongst others, into its own system?? I

>for one, am not.

 

>Vitoria encourages us, rightly, to always see all

>sides and to consult with western medicine etc. It is

>often necessary, especially with the under-developed

>TCM which we often have here in North America. This

>forum should help us all to see all sides, as well as

>to develop our understanding and our application of

>TCM as deeply as possible. I am certain that we are

>only scratching the surface.

 

>The final point of my argument is that it is possibly

>up to us here, in non-China, to take the next step

>since we are very familiar with the pitfalls of thw

>western medical system. The new medicine, the really

>New medicine, far from being an " integrated " system of

>two antagonistic principles, needs to be a continued

>unfolding of the TCM paradigm. Western methods and

>techniques fit beautifully within the TCM dynamic,

>especially when we consider the most vital elements of

>western medicine - the new _living_ sciences of life -

>bioelectromagnetics, morphogenesis, whole systems

>theory, quantum theory etc. I believe that these are

>the sciences which will fit into TCM and which will

>lead the cruder physical sciences to their respective

>places.

 

>We have seen that, more often than not, western

>medicine has been abused and used in dangerous ways. I

>really don't believe that wm has a viable ethical /

>worldview system - i.e. their way of thinking is not

>sustainable, it is based on control rather than

>harmony. Furthermore, I like to think that even at the

>pinnacle of the corruption of Chinese medicine, the

>old way of harmony with nature, not control of nature

>was present at the ChengDu conference - there was

>strong talk of sustainable agriculture.

 

>One last comment, please do not mistake me and think

>that I am saying that TCM is finished or needs no

>change or correction - on the contrary, TCM needs to

>continue to unfold, grow, refine, clarify and discard

>errors. What I am stating is that the basic theory,

>the basic worldview, is correct - and this has been

>proven again and again. All we need to do is progress

>from there.

 

>Ok, thanks for reading,

 

>Hugo " struggling with regulation keeps all these

>things at the forefront of my brain "

 

 

_____________________

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