Dog with Congestive Heart Failure

[Guest guest]

I am trying to get some help for my little toy poodle who was diagnosed five

months ago with Congestive Heart Failure (CHF). The regular vet has him on

lasix and enalapril (ACE inhibitor). I have taken him to a University

Acupuncture vet, but I feel he really just treats him with the Western

diagnosis, which may be all right as far as it goes. The dog is thirteen

plus, so I realize that he probably does not have that long to live, but I

would like it to be as comfortable a time as possible. To that end I have

put him on Standard Process Glandulars for the Heart and the Kidneys. I do

the heart glandulars in the a.m. and the kidney glandulars in the p.m. (I do

this on my own). I also added (on my own, regular vets do not seem to have a

clue) CoQ10 (15 mg--he weighs 8lbs), to help overcome the side effects of its

depletion by the Western drugs. Also it is supposed to help the CHF.

 

He just went (for fourth time) to the acupuncture vet yesterday, and this vet

seems to feel that he has a yin deficiency (of what???), HT/LU/KID Qi

Deficiency (seems a safe guess, considering his age).

 

He has a cough which is worse at night in the time of Pericardium (7-9pm) and

Triple Warmer (9-11pm). It is also worse 7-9am (large intestine, which I

assume points to a connection with the lung). Sometimes the cough seems like

extended hiccups, as if the diaphragm is overworking. I know that enalapril

may be also be a culprit in a PM cough which is dry, and sometimes the cough

does seem dry. Still at other times the cough seems wet, though anything

expectorated the dog swallows so color/thickness are unknown. The

acupuncture vet seems to see this as a cold, wet cough, though how he arrived

at this conclusion I do not know as he did not say, but the pill he picked

out was one which would be for a cold, wet cough with thin phlegm. I have

been exposed to the old fashioned TCM style pattern diagnosis, and I wonder

about this person's diagnosis as he never seems to check for the more obvious

clues the dog has--such as the white of the eye (this part of the eye

represents the lung in the old style TCM diagnosis) is rather red. On the

other side the eye seems to be a more normal white. So I feel that also (as

the liver opens to the eyes) there may be some possible liver overheating

(liver heat rising) which is going to the lung as well, at least maybe

overheating the lung on the one side (???). The formula this man suggested

for the cough I am nervous about and have not started using (in fact he was

out of it so I have not bought it as yet) is Su Zi Jiang Qi Wan. In my

sources it is used for spleen deficiency and also cold thin phlegm with cough

(there is some abdominal swelling). Still I am uncertain about this teapill,

and would appreciated any thoughts.

 

About three weeks ago when the cough definitely got worse this person took

the dog off the formulas he had him on and added Wu Ling San (powdered), one

teaspoon twice a day for two weeks. He still has him on that formula at one

teaspoon once a day. He called this formula the equivalent of herbal lasix.

This makes me feel that he treats on Western symptoms, and does not look at

the TCM pattern, at least not that closely or in the way I understand it (I

do not see anyone checking pulse for regularity, depth, type or strength--it

does seem somewhat stronger and more regular to me than it was when he was

first diagnosed). They did note that the tongue was slightly purple so there

might be some blood stasis (though this is not written down anywhere). All

so muddled, I am not sure what they really thought (vet students are there as

well).

 

The dog usually sleeps well, though he does wake up some through the night

coughing for a minute or so. He has a good appetite. In fact he is somewhat

voracious in attacking his food, always has been (since he was starved as a

young puppy before I got him). Bowel movements are regular, though they are

a bit softer than normal--occasional loose stools, but not always.

 

He seems somewhat better today after acupuncture yesterday, one needle of

which was on the cough point (ding chuan, GV22). Others were Bl 13/15 and 26

and GV12--seems he forgot to write down one point as there were six needles,

but this is all I have here, probably the one opposite BL 26??? They also

put in some B12 at three of these places after the needles came out. He

slept better last night and seems better with less coughing so far today, but

with our distance of three hours from the university acupuncture vet it is

not something we can do more than once every six weeks (and the local vet who

does acupuncture seems to know less than this guy from China--sigh, if only I

could take him to someone who here does know TCM symptom patterns), so how

much this benefits long term is quite doubtful.

 

So since the dog is apparently being treated for Western symptoms with TCM

herbs I am wondering if anyone has any idea of how to possibly pick out a

formula other than Su Zi Jiang Qi Wan for the lungs and which does not have

ephedra in it. (I don't know, somehow this does not sound right for

congestive heart failure, but maybe it could be--still as the dog has always

been very hyperactive and running on adrenals I wonder if ephedra in a

formula would be a good choice.) At one point this acupuncture vet had him

on another formula which had ginseng in it and he became very hyper over time

from it.

 

That is another thing, this guy just seems to pick out a formula and then

leaves the animal on it until a symptom crops up and shows the formula is not

right, ignoring all the little symptoms which may have already been pointing

towards a needed change in formula prior to that major bad symptom (which is

why I called him when I saw the cough worsening). Still this does not seem

to be a major concern for him: sort of plunk the animal on the herbs as if

they were a Western drug and leave it there unless a side effect shows up. I

also wonder if this formula is a good choice at all, since if the cough were

really hot and wet (or dry) this formula could worsen the symptoms and

exacerbate the CHF.

 

If anyone has any ideas about this I would appreciate hearing from her/him.

Thanks.

 

Sarah

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/12/2002 23:07:31 GMT Standard Time, bonmotSarah

writes:

 

 

> If anyone has any ideas about this I would appreciate hearing from her/him.

> Thanks.

>

 

I have nothing to offer but empathy - I got exactly the same feeling from the

vet treating my horse, and he even had the nerve to suggust I was 'too

subjective' to be able to accurately assess the massive adverse reaction my

horse had to his choice of formula! When he said he knew of 'no possible

explanation' I let him go. I hope at least the medical herbalist I use will

be able to make sense of his pattern - which is complex, but pretty loudly

saying something!

 

All the best with him

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , jackiejataylor@a... wrote:

> >

>

> I have nothing to offer but empathy

 

Thanks so much Jackie, that is saying a lot. I have been reading all

your posts about your horse with great interest, but as you say I do

not know enough to intervene and offer suggestions. It is very

difficult to be so involved with an animal you love and see them

suffer. I think that at least my dog and your horse are doing better

than they might otherwise be doing because someone loves them. That

alone probably offers some comfort to them, if not a cure.

 

I guess sometimes all one can do is the best one can with whatever is

at hand. I do wish for better than what is available out there in

the TCM veterinary model, but I do wonder sometimes how they can

improve very much when the teachers who teach do not seem to know

that much either (which is what is going on in my dog's case).

 

Anyway, I keep looking in my TCM patent herbal medicine books. I

think what I am looking for is a more neutral in action lung formula

and maybe that is not possible to find. I feel that not knowing

whether the lungs are hot or cold is a stumbling block to picking out

a formula which would possibly help his cough. What I really would

like to find is someone like my own TCM practitioner who would say

throw out the Western medication, I know how to treat with TCM herbs

alone (and he does know how to treat heart problems without Western

medications, especially if the patient comes to him before ever using

Western heart medications--alas, I knew that there was no one here

who was the animal equivalent for this sort of TCM practitioner).

 

Ah well, as some would say it is just a dog, but then that is the

point of having an animal to love, yes? I, too, wish you well with

your quest for finding adequate herbal help for your horse. Perhaps

your instincts will serve you well, you seem to have a good grasp of

what is going on with your horse.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write.

 

Sarah

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , bonmotSarah@a... wrote:

> I am trying to get some help for my little toy poodle who was

diagnosed five

> months ago with Congestive Heart Failure (CHF).

 

Sarah, I am so sorry about your dog. Dogs and cats and horses, etc.

frequently are members of the family, and I suspect this is the case

with you. Not just a pet, but a family member.

 

> He has a cough which is worse at night in the time of Pericardium

(7-9pm) and

> Triple Warmer (9-11pm). It is also worse 7-9am (large intestine,

which I

> assume points to a connection with the lung). Sometimes the cough

seems like

> extended hiccups, as if the diaphragm is overworking.

 

Keep in mind the role that the Triple Warmer plays in Fluid

physiology in the body. I'm unsure of something here. Is the dog on

prescription drug lasix plus on an herbal diuretic formula? This may

be too much.

 

Also, did the cough start before or after being placed on

prescription lasix (if he is on prescription lasix)?

 

> may be also be a culprit in a PM cough which is dry, and sometimes

the cough

> does seem dry. Still at other times the cough seems wet, though

anything

> expectorated the dog swallows so color/thickness are unknown.

 

Coughs can vary back and forth from being dry to being wet to being

dry again. This is especially true when there are some Triple Heater

problems. Also, when diuretics are used. Also when weather

conditions vary. One possible cause of coughs is Wind. During times

when a storm is moving in (changes in barometric pressure) and

especially when the wind is blowing, some people get a tickling in

their throats and start coughing. There often is Protective Qi

Deficiency in these cases, and probably Kidney Deficiency. BUT, the

timing of these Wind coughs is erratic - whenever a storm is moving

in or it's windy. The coughing you report is worst at regular times

during the day - Triple Heater, Pericardium, and Large Intestine.

 

 

> They did note that the tongue was slightly purple so there

> might be some blood stasis (though this is not written down

anywhere).

 

Is he on anything for Blood Stasis? Blood Stasis can trigger a

number of problems. Especially in older individuals. You may want

to check out the book Aging & Blood Stasis by Yan De-Xin, Blue Poppy

Press.

 

Also, what color is the tip of the tongue? Problems in the Upper

Heater (Heart and Lungs) frequently show up here.

 

> The dog usually sleeps well, though he does wake up some through

the night

> coughing for a minute or so. He has a good appetite. In fact he is

somewhat

> voracious in attacking his food, always has been (since he was

starved as a

> young puppy before I got him). Bowel movements are regular, though

they are

> a bit softer than normal--occasional loose stools, but not always.

 

This is good. Especially the appetite. When a person or animal has a

good appetite, the person or animal is more likely to get the

nutrients s/he needs.

 

I wish I could help more.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Victoria,

 

>Not just a pet, but a family member.<

 

Thank you so much for you letter, it is very helpful to me, just the kind

words alone. And your observation is absolutely right.

 

>Is the dog on

prescription drug lasix plus on an herbal diuretic formula? This may

be too much.<

 

Yes, the dog is on lasix plus the su ling wan (which the acupuncture vet

called herbal lasix). I don't think it is too much, as the regular vet

suggested putting him on more lasix if the cough got worse. He requested we

first a cough suppressant (which I would only contemplate using as an

absolute last resort, I hate Western drugs, and as I told Jackie in an

earlier post I wish I could find the vet equal to the TCM practitioner for

humans in my area, who also hates Western drugs and often successfully treats

heart conditions such as this without them). The traditional vet wanted to

do the additional lasix only after trying the cough suppressant. We already

had the dog on the Su Ling Wan (what the TCM vet called herbal lasix) in the

afternoon feeding (in the morning I use lasix and the enalapril and in the

afternoon the Su Ling Wan). Since this vet is a traditional Western vet we

did not tell him that he already was on the TCM equivalent of lasix in the

evening, this vet being a nonbeliever in herbs. We have, however, told the

acupuncture style vet about all his medications and allegedly he is taking

that into consideration when he prescribes his herbs (cross fingers here).

 

>Also, did the cough start before or after being placed on

prescription lasix (if he is on prescription lasix)?<

 

He really started with a cough before going on Lasix. It just got worse

there for a while afterwards. Since the most recent acupuncture it has

improved quite a bit and it surprises me that it has lasted so long since it

was done about ten days ago--generally the effects of acupuncture are not

that prolonged, so this is very exciting to see. I guess generalities are

not always true, even with acupuncture.

 

Thank you for the description of the Wind cough and the difference between

that and Chronic cough. I think maybe there was some Wind involved because

the weather was changing at the time the cough got worse, and the times of

the day stayed the same as before the cough got worse, perhaps Wind

overlaying onto Chronic.

 

>Is he on anything for Blood Stasis?<

 

Not to my knowledge, unless this newest formula suggested for the cough (Shu

Zi Jiang Qi Wan) also has something in it for blood stasis. Mind you, this

particular phrase (blood stasis) was never used by the acupuncture vet, so

perhaps he was not thinking this way exactly, I don't know. Anyway, thank you

for the book recommendation on blood stasis. I do not know that much about

blood Stasis--guess I will have to do a search on this forum as well and

think about buying the book as well.

 

The acupuncture vet who was involved with the vet students and who also

seemed to be having an extremely busy day probably left off a few items out

of his explanation to them (as well as to us) about the dog's condition. I

just got the new formula he prescribed yesterday and gave some to the dog (I

hope I did, as I found a little black teapill on the floor and could not tell

if the standard poodle spit out one of his six Liu Wei Di Huang Wan teapills

or if it was the little scudder who spit out his new medication--you probably

know how dogs can be about these little pills when they find them). I

decided to go ahead and try the acupuncture vet's recommendation to use Shu

(Su) Zi Jiang Qi Wan. I think I was looking at the wrong formula when

thought I saw ephedra--there does not seem to be any ephedra in this (thank

goodness as the dog is already hyperactive). In English this formula is

called Perilla Fruit Combination.

 

>Also, what color is the tip of the tongue?<

 

We have tried to look in his mouth to see, but honestly he jumps around so

much that we cannot see anything. I will try to catch him when he isn't

looking but I believe that will be very hard. Could you tell me what colors

on the tip are and what they mean? (Or tell me if you have discussed this

already on this forum, in which case I will do a search, or point me towards

a book on this subject?).

 

>When a person or animal has a

good appetite, the person or animal is more likely to get the

nutrients s/he needs.<

 

Yes, but after studying a bit with the TCM practitioner in my area, I also

see this as symptom of possible spleen/pancreas imbalance. The dog has been

like that all his life, and since he has eaten regularly for thirteen years

(Vs the ten weeks he was starved) I feel that this may have been a

contributing factor in his body's imbalance. Still I could be wrong, since

my knowledge is not that deep.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate all your help. Probably the best help from my

perspective has been the reaching out of others to offer comfort to me and my

family, both you and Jackie have been very kind that way. I know my family

will all miss our little scrap when he is gone--he has always led with his

heart and it is simply wearing out. I just hope that he will be comfortable

in the mean time. So far he is improving, so perhaps he will be around a bit

longer with us, filling our days with the joy of his continuing antics (that

is another good sign, he has perked up some). Still, who knows, the winter is

the hardest time for the heart.

 

Best wishes for a happy holiday season to all.

 

Sarah

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , bonmotSarah@a... wrote:

> We have tried to look in his mouth to see, but honestly he jumps

around so

> much that we cannot see anything. I will try to catch him when he

isn't

> looking but I believe that will be very hard. Could you tell me

what colors

> on the tip are and what they mean? (Or tell me if you have

discussed this

> already on this forum, in which case I will do a search, or point

me towards

> a book on this subject?).

 

Sorry to be so late answering. Things have been disorganized around

here.

 

The tip of the tongue often will reveal problems in the Upper Burner,

the Heart and Lungs.

 

Red is associated with Heat; paleness with Cold. A purple discoration

reveals Blood Stasis. If it's a reddish-purple, this is Blood Stasis

with Heat. If it's a bluish-purple, this is Blood Stasis with Cold.

A normal tongue is pink or pale read. (Dr. Maciocia has a tongue

gallery on his website.)

 

The center of the tongue often reveals problems with the Stomach.

The sides can reveal problems with the Liver and Gall Bladder. The

Liver is on the left side, and the GB on the right. (There are some

variations on this. This is just the basics.)

 

Toward the root of the tongue is the Kidney area. It is normal for

the tongue coating to be thicker toward the back of the tongue.

 

In general, thin coat is normal or indicates Deficiency. Thich coat

indicates Excess. Absent coat is associated with Yin Deficiency, in

particular Stomach Yin Deficiency.

 

Dr. Maciocia also has a book on tongue diagnosis. Tongue Diagnosis

in , ISBN 0-939616-19-x.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

<victoria_dragon wrote:

 

> The center of the tongue often reveals problems with

> the Stomach.

> The sides can reveal problems with the Liver and

> Gall Bladder. The

> Liver is on the left side, and the GB on the right.

> (There are some

> variations on this. This is just the basics.)

 

Is this on your own tongue or when looking at another

person's? Because in the body, the Liver is on the

right and GB on the left and I would think tongue

diagnosis would mirror body placement.

 

Just wondering....

 

sue

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , suzee <qiuser> wrote:

> <victoria_dragon@h...> wrote:

>

> > The center of the tongue often reveals problems with

> > the Stomach.

> > The sides can reveal problems with the Liver and

> > Gall Bladder. The

> > Liver is on the left side, and the GB on the right.

> > (There are some

> > variations on this. This is just the basics.)

>

> Is this on your own tongue or when looking at another

> person's? Because in the body, the Liver is on the

> right and GB on the left and I would think tongue

> diagnosis would mirror body placement.

 

It's on your own tongue.

 

I too was surprised by the left side of the tongue revealing the

Liver.

 

The gallballder is on the right side of the body too. The spleen is

toward the left side of the body.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

<victoria_dragon wrote:

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine , suzee

> <qiuser> wrote:

> > <victoria_dragon@h...> wrote:

> >

> > > The center of the tongue often reveals problems

> with

> > > the Stomach.

> > > The sides can reveal problems with the Liver and

> > > Gall Bladder. The

> > > Liver is on the left side, and the GB on the

> right.

> > > (There are some

> > > variations on this. This is just the basics.)

> >

> > Is this on your own tongue or when looking at

> another

> > person's? Because in the body, the Liver is on the

> > right and GB on the left and I would think tongue

> > diagnosis would mirror body placement.

>

> It's on your own tongue.

>

> I too was surprised by the left side of the tongue

> revealing the Liver.

>

> The gallballder is on the right side of the body

> too. The spleen is toward the left side of the body.

 

Ooops. You're right - and here I thought I knew

anatomy! I wonder why they use both of that pair for

diagnosis, because the other spots are one of the

pair, aren't they? Kidney (but not Bladder), Heart

(but not Sm. Intestine), etc....

 

sue

 

 

 

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