Cushings syndrome- endocrinology book says

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine , " victoria_dragon "

<victoria_dragon@h...> wrote:

> > Can anyone give me the TCM syndromes that have been found to

> > correlate to Cushings? I found several possibilities for

> > hypothyroidism and insulin resistance/diabetes in those review

> > articles I posted, but cannot find any for cushings??

>

> Jackie, please post a synopsis of your findings in regard to

> hypothyroidism, insulin resistance/diabetes, and Cushings when you

> have everything together.

>

> Thanks,

> Victoria

 

 

Differentiate Syndroms - Expert formulas - treatment and therapy

Vol. 7 :Endocrinologic diseases (360 chinese pages)

 

hypercortisolism

 

liver fails to disperse and spread

stagnates and develops fire

qi and fire get vigorous

 

liver qi gets so strong that

it attacks spleen

spleen thus fails transform transport function

damp develops and transforms to phlegm

 

yin def. constitution plus liver qi stagnation

develops fire and stirs up the 'kidney'-fire (xiang-huo)

damages jing and yin

scorches blood and ye-fluids

and after a long time

leads to stagnation (yu)

after a long time Yang also suffers

 

so we the whole disease is base on:

kidney liver unbalanced

spleen kidney deficient

yin and yang not in harmony

and its further development

 

You get quite mixed/far developed syndromes,

therapy: lead out stagnation and cool fire without hurting yin,

nourish yin without agravating stagnation and phlegm.

Greetings Tay.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/12/2002 07:49:03 GMT Standard Time, aajohansen

writes:

 

 

> yin def. constitution plus liver qi stagnation

> develops fire and stirs up the 'kidney'-fire (xiang-huo)

> damages jing and yin

> scorches blood and ye-fluids

> and after a long time

> leads to stagnation (yu)

> after a long time Yang also suffers

>

> so we the whole disease is base on:

> kidney liver unbalanced

> spleen kidney deficient

> yin and yang not in harmony

> and its further development

>

> You get quite mixed/far developed syndromes,

> therapy: lead out stagnation and cool fire without hurting yin,

> nourish yin without agravating stagnation and phlegm.

>

 

 

Wow thanks Tay, this is so cool!!

 

Could someone define 'jing' and 'ye fluids' for me please? I can translate

shen directly, and I reckon I have grasped qi, but essense and jing are a bit

woolly for me still.

 

The above clearly describes the kind of paradox I think I see in my horse -

the vet saw liver qi stagnation and spleen qi deficiency, but his adverse

reactions to various herbs suggested an underlying yin deficiency, and the

'family pattern' was some kind of kidney imbalance.

 

If that is the case, from the treatment description above it sounds like it

is very easy to aggravate yin deficiency while addressing liver qi stagnation

and vice versa. It'll be fascinating to see what the hebalist 'sees' in him.

 

I was checking the other patterns I found that tie up with his clinical data

too (from the articles I posted reference for):

 

Various insulin resistance states have been diagnosed as being linked to:

phlegm turbidity due to qi deficiency, yin deficiency vacuity heat, yin and

qi deficiency, both yin and yang deficiency or liver yang rising.

 

Hypothyroid states are less clear, and generally treated as qi and yang

deficiency (but he does not have true hypothyroidism anyway).

 

I also found an aetiology for HYPERthyroidism that was very interesting -

compare it to Tay's description of cushings:

 

yin def. constitution plus liver qi stagnation

develops fire and stirs up the 'kidney'-fire (xiang-huo)

damages jing and yin

scorches blood and ye-fluids

and after a long time

leads to stagnation (yu)

after a long time Yang also suffers

 

 

" It is said that hyperthyroidism " is related to emotional factors, kidney yin

deficiency, fatigue, or congenital weakness. The liver is in charge of

purging and discharging. It likes movement and dislikes stagnation. When it

is affected by emotional factors the functional qi stagnates. Stagnation of

liver qi can transform into fire, which in turn can impair the yin. When the

yin is impaired, deficiency fire agitates inside, impairing the heart in the

upper heater and the kidney in the lower heater. If this condition lasts for

a long time, the yin of the heart, liver, and kidney are consumed, and they

act on each other, depleting each other further. The disease is caused by

deficiency but its symptoms are excess. The cause is deficiency fire and the

symptoms are exuberant fire. Heat in the heart transforms to the stomach,

accelerating metabolism and causing hunger. At the same time, heat in the

stomach and liver condenses the essence in the yang ming channel into phlegm.

Phlegm and qi rise to the neck to form goiter, the swollen thyroid. "

 

My mare developed a goitre, which turned out to be hormonally active, and

malignant, and was removed. The vets therefore thought latent hyperthyroidism

was the cause of the whole syndrome, and were appalled when, after she

recovered, I told them the same underlying pathology was still in place. We

investigated everything, but they could find no definitive diagnosis. Ten

years later the mare began to look very cushingoid (she died before we found

out).

 

That makes no sense in western medical terms (two very different diseases)

but seems to me to make a total sense from the TCM perspective don't you

think - just two manifestations of the same underlying imbalance!?

 

I also had a brainwave about how if kidney yin = cortisol secretion, why a

yin deficient horse could have high cortisol and still be unable to adapt to

stress. If the yin was deficient overall in the body, or being 'consumed',

then the kidney as the source would work overtime trying to make up the

deficiency, hence excess cortisol but never 'enough'. Make sense??

 

Ooh this paradigm is so cool!!

 

Jackie

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Tay

 

Thanks very much...

 

have you treated any such case and if so would you mind sharing a case history

example?

 

Marco

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/12/2002 17:26:13 GMT Standard Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

 

> As far as I know, no Western researchers have caught on to the fact

> that sometimes the time of year that they conduct their studies may

> skew the results of certain (not all) studies.

>

 

I do think CFS goes in stages too - simplistically the adrenals at first try

to cope, so cortisol is high, and then they can reach exhaustion (so be low)

or go into hyperplasia from the long term stimulation (so get stuck on high).

Apparently a lot of cushings horses are found to have pituitary hyperplasia,

not tumours, at autopsy, and there is also a grey line at which hyperplasia

can tip over into tumour.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> hypercortisolism

> so we the whole disease is base on:

> kidney liver unbalanced

> spleen kidney deficient

> yin and yang not in harmony

> and its further development

>

> You get quite mixed/far developed syndromes,

> therapy: lead out stagnation and cool fire without hurting yin,

> nourish yin without agravating stagnation and phlegm.

 

Thanks, Tay.

 

One thing that has puzzled researchers looking into CFIDS is that

sometimes there are symptoms and signs (lab results) of

hypercortisolism, sometimes symptoms of hypocortisolism. What various

researchers find depends on who's being tested when. Results have

been very varied, with one reseracher finding hypercortisolism at one

time with one group of test subjects, another finding hypocortisolism

at other times with other test subjects, and another finding no

significant rates of either in another group of study subjects on

another day. An individual PWC (Person With CFIDS) can can sometimes

manifest the hypercortisolism, sometimes the hypocortisolism, and

sometimes manifest neither. (CFIDS is a condition of extremes. The

body has trouble reaching and maintaining homeostasis.)

 

Please note the " lead out stagnation and cool fire without hurting

yin,

> nourish yin without agravating stagnation and phlegm " . This is

what sometimes make these cases somewhat difficult to treat. The

need to do certain things without aggravating various other

problems. When healers are aware that they need to be careful not to

aggravate other problems while addressing one of the problems, they

become more effective healers and these cases are easier to help than

they otherwise would do.

 

This also is why is geared toward identifying and

treating all imbalances when possible. It also is why TCM healers

frequently check clients and change treatment strategies as the

clinical picture changes. For example, the Kidneys supply the Yin

and Yang to the rest of the body. Note the part about Kidney

Deficiency and the part about Yin and Yang not being in harmony. If

a person is Kidney Yin Deficient, that person almost is sure to be

Kidney Yang Deficient though in lesser degreee. If a person is

Kidney Yang Deficient, that person is almost certain to be Kidney Yin

Deficient also though in lesser degreee. If both are not addressed

in the proper ratio (i.e., including one or more Kidney Yin tonic

herbs along with the Kidney Yang tonic herbs in a formula for a

Kidney Yang Deficient person), this can set off a *relative*

imbalance. For example, if you just give the Kidney Yang Deficient

person Kidney Yang tonic herbs, the Kidney Yin Deficient symptoms

then become apparent or more apparent than they were. The Yin

Deficieny is now worse than the Yang Deficiency because no herbs were

provided for the Yin Deficiency. Both Kidney Yang and Kidney Yin

Deficiency may still be present (probably are because Kidney Yang

Deficiency can take a long time to correct), but now the Yin

Deficiency is worse than the Yang Deficiency.

 

The nature of long-term Kidney Yang and Kidney Yin Deficiency is that

the person becomes very sensitive to things in the environment (like

weather conditions), diet, etc. worsening either the Yang or the Yin

Deficiency. These are not people who can reach or maintain

homeostasis easily or quickly. Since Heat damages Yin, such people

may have the Kidney Yin Deficiency symptoms and signs predominating

in the summer when it is hot. Because Cold damages Yang, the same

people may have the Kidney Yang symptoms and signs predominating in

the winter when it is cold.

 

As far as I know, no Western researchers have caught on to the fact

that sometimes the time of year that they conduct their studies may

skew the results of certain (not all) studies.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

 

 

> Greetings Tay.

[Guest guest]

> I do think CFS goes in stages too - simplistically the adrenals at

first try

> to cope, so cortisol is high, and then they can reach exhaustion

(so be low)

> or go into hyperplasia from the long term stimulation (so get stuck

on high).

 

Very often, part of the PWC's immune system is in overdrive

(particularly cytoklines) and part is underactive.

 

I am a PWC who also suffered from recuring and chronic mononucleosis

(glandular fever). Several different things (like cytomegalovirus)

can cause mononucleosis, but the most common cause is Epstein Barr

virus, accounting for 90% of the cases.

 

When the doctor does an Epstein Barr titer panel, 4 different EB

antibodies are essayed. The pattern of those 4 EB antibodies can

tell the doctor if this is the first time the person has had mono and

it has been had within the past 6 months. (One of the titers will

only be positive if this is the first exposure to EB.)

 

One of the possible patterns will point to it being chronic mono,

another to recurring mono, and another to an acute case. I had the

pattern for chronic mono. Two of the titers were very high, the one

that reveals first case was negative, and another was low. I was

pumping out plenty of some of those antibodies (overdrive) but I

needed the EBNA (I think that's what it's called) to be higher to put

the mono in remission. It was like having my foot all the way down

on the gas pedal but having my other foot on the brake at the same

time.

 

I didn't know about Chinese medicine at the time so I worked with

what I had. Some very high dosages of vitamins, minerals, and herbs

like echinacea. I also used visualizaiton. And I ate a lot of eggs,

which I was craving and which I later found out are a possible

treatment for mono.

 

Something worked. The doctor had told me I'd probably always have

positive monospot tests, but I went into remission.

 

BTW, my on-again, off-again problems with my thyroid are tied to the

bouts of mono and mono-like illnesses. I'll post more on that later.

 

Victoria

 

 

> Apparently a lot of cushings horses are found to have pituitary

hyperplasia,

> not tumours, at autopsy, and there is also a grey line at which

hyperplasia

> can tip over into tumour.

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Various insulin resistance states have been diagnosed as being

linked to:

> phlegm turbidity due to qi deficiency, yin deficiency vacuity heat,

yin and

> qi deficiency, both yin and yang deficiency or liver yang rising.

>

> Hypothyroid states are less clear, and generally treated as qi and

yang

> deficiency (but he does not have true hypothyroidism anyway).

 

I have a lifetime history of on-again, off-again thyroid problems

that are associated with bouts of mononucleosis (glandular fever) and

mono-like diseases. (When I was a kid, it was believed that children

didn't get mono, so I wasn't diagnosed as having mono then, but

looking back the symptoms were all there. Doctors also used to

believe that once a person got mono, they never got it again. So

much for that theory.)

 

I was always hypothyroid except for one time when I was hyper. I

wish I had known about TCM and the Qi and Yang thing way back when.

BTW, when I came down with a mono-like illness when I was 11, it

followed my having been on a very strict diet. Strict, unwise

dieting can damage the Spleen and the Qi. I was on one of those

liquid diets for a long time.

 

When I look back, every single bout of mono and mono-like illnesses I

had came about when I did something that damages the Spleen and Qi.

Be it unwise and strict dieting and/or overwork, over-studying, etc.

(It's no coincidence that college students are so prone to mono. Too

much studying can damage the Spleen and Qi.)

 

These bouts of mono also came on in the cooler and colder months.

Part of the Qi is the Protective Qi which circulates at the surface

of the body and protects people from weather conditions (Pernicious

Evils) and pathogens. Since the Spleen plays such a key role in Qi

formation in the body, if the Spleen is damaged there is not going to

be enough Qi of any type, including Protective Qi.

 

Eventually, the Protective Qi is going to weaken to the point that

the person is very affected by Exterior Pernicious Evils. Cold

damages Yang, and I seem to have some constitutional problems with

vulnerability to cold anyway.

 

Victoria